Post your birth chart

[CorLeonis]

Do you find the cusp idea to be valid? I ask only because I'm not sure that I do...I usually find that there's another reason for someone to exhibit traits of the preceding/following sign, such as a personal or ruling planet in it. Thoughts? Observations?

It definitely fits for me.

I don't have any other Leo in my chart, aside from my sun being on the cusp.

I also (as a Virgo.... heh.) analyze the crap out of the people I know, if I know their sign, and they allow me. I find a lot of cuspers, and some of them have such an amazing combination of the two signs that I find it hard for me to not use it. And I often find a lot of clarity through using the cusp, rather than just their sun sign, if they are on one.

It also doesn't really compute, in my mind, to have such a sudden change. The sun doesn't stay in one place for a month, then jump to another constellation the second that the clock strikes 12. It's gradually moving toward the other sign. (This is also why I like decants. They split each sign into 3 sections, each with slightly different characteristics emphasized).



Slightly off topic, but the decants made me think of it.

The Egyptian zodiac was split into 36 signs. 10 days each. And then there were 5 days in the year that were considered "outside of time". Cool, eh? Random. But I found it interesting.

 

[dream echo]

It also doesn't really compute, in my mind, to have such a sudden change. The sun doesn't stay in one place for a month, then jump to another constellation the second that the clock strikes 12. It's gradually moving toward the other sign. (This is also why I like decants. They split each sign into 3 sections, each with slightly different characteristics emphasized).

I like decanates, too...the little I've experimented with them.

However...as far as the cusp issue goes...if there's sun sign cusp validity, why not for all other planets as well?

And the actual constellations aren't in sync anymore anyway...at least not in modern times with the precession of the equinoxes (unless we're talking jyotish, which I'm pretty sure we're not), nor does the clock striking 12 have anything to do with anything...

If the sun was a light that could be turned on and off with a switch, either the light is on...or off. While I like the fluidity of some ideas like cusps (leaving open-ended possibilities), at some point you need to draw a line, or astrology loses its usefulness and anyone could pick and choose the sign they deem better and BAM! It's no longer a tool for self-discovery, but a way to encourage denial.

None of this means I necessarily disagree with you...I'd just like to know what you and others think about this and what everyone's research reveals.

 

[CorLeonis]

I like decanates, too...the little I've experimented with them.

However...as far as the cusp issue goes...if there's sun sign cusp validity, why not for all other planets as well?

And the actual constellations aren't in sync anymore anyway...at least not in modern times with the precession of the equinoxes (unless we're talking jyotish, which I'm pretty sure we're not), nor does the clock striking 12 have anything to do with anything...

If the sun was a light that could be turned on and off with a switch, either the light is on...or off. While I like the fluidity of some ideas like cusps (leaving open-ended possibilities), at some point you need to draw a line, or astrology loses its usefulness and anyone could pick and choose the sign they deem better and BAM! It's no longer a tool for self-discovery, but a way to encourage denial.

None of this means I necessarily disagree with you...I'd just like to know what you and others think about this and what everyone's research reveals.

No, I completely understand what you're saying, and agree, but for a few things.

Planets... hmm. How to describe this. Planets do have it, but in a slightly different way. Orbs? And their aspects to other things are strongest when the angles are exact, but within a few degrees, the aspect still counts, it is just weaker. The sun is a star, and that's why it has it's own few rules. Star vs. Planet.

I think it's all somewhat fluid.

With that said... I also have a bit of a difference of opinion in terms of "useful". I use astrology as a tool, to try and get to know people better, to try and find the best way to have a good relationship with that person, whether it's a friend, a family member, someone I don't really want to deal with but need to... I couple what I find useful in astrology with what I know of that person, and what I know of human nature (however much or little that is... heh!) But I don't think that the ever-changing nature of astrology is all that different than the ever-changing nature of the universe, of everything, and even the person you're trying to understand. Each part is a piece of a puzzle, and you do not know how big it is, or what it is a picture of. But each piece still shows you something new.

Too philosophical? heh.

 

[dream echo]

[MENTION=3691]CorLeonis[/MENTION]... No... I find this fascinating...

I also use astrology to learn about others, find out how to best get along with them, etc.

I'm just not entirely sold on the cusp idea.

I guess some of that is because I've seen people cast their own charts incorrectly and claim traits based off a mathematical error, only to find out later they were wrong. This leaves them confused and hating astrology, which I don't want.

Others have proudly used their charts as an unapologetic excuse as to why they act in a negative manner, instead of using it as a way to be aware and on guard against behavior they know is hurtful.

So many people try to make astrological signs fit them or vice versa...

I'm just leery of anything that says...well...it's close enough...that must be it.

 

[CorLeonis]

@CorLeonis... No... I find this fascinating...

I also use astrology to learn about others, find out how to best get along with them, etc.

I'm just not entirely sold on the cusp idea.

I guess some of that is because I've seen people cast their own charts incorrectly and claim traits based off a mathematical error, only to find out later they were wrong. This leaves them confused and hating astrology, which I don't want.

Others have proudly used their charts as an unapologetic excuse as to why they act in a negative manner, instead of using it as a way to be aware and on guard against behavior they know is hurtful.

So many people try to make astrological signs fit them or vice versa...

I'm just leery of anything that says...well...it's close enough...that must be it.

I definitely agree that many people use astrology in the wrong manner. That's why I always, always begin conversations with astrology or someone's birth chart with trying to clarify that a birth chart shows possibilities. It shows the most likely possibility, but there is always potential for a human to change the way they relate to the world, or treat other people, or themselves... etc.

But on the same token, astrology is not a hard science, and that's why I feel like it's supposed to be fluid, not stagnant.

Maybe not the best example... but say you're studying... abnormal psychology. Take someone with schizophrenia (or any "disorder"). The study of the disease will tell you general traits and symptoms. But not every schizophrenic human WILL have the same symptoms, and when they do, they will not necessarily present them in the same way, or deal with that symptom in the same way.

Does that maybe clarify more of my view on astrology?

 

[This]

I personally hate when people try and "get to know me better and relate to me" through my astrological signs because I feel like those things misrepresent who I am and if people are so convinced of who I am before they even get to know me, it's a bit frustrating.

 

[Solongo]

Do you find the cusp idea to be valid? I ask only because I'm not sure that I do...I usually find that there's another reason for someone to exhibit traits of the preceding/following sign, such as a personal or ruling planet in it. Thoughts? Observations?

The ruling planet of your chart creates a theme in your chart. The cusp idea is very minor compared to aspects. You may be born on a cusp; but find out what planet is aspecting your Sun sign or even Rising sign. The aspect it makes and where it is found will give you the reason why you may have contradictory traits or have traits that only come out in certain areas of your life.

In my opinion the cusp is not a major thing. Certain branches of astrology do not even use a house system and do not even bother with cusps. For most basic understanding of astrology one should study the Sun, Moon, Rising Sun, Venus, Mars and Mercury. One should understand what each stands for. here is a brief overview that can get very complex:

The Sun - your vital energy to live and thrive in the world. Deals with your exterior personality and how YOU present and express yourself to the world.

The Moon - your emotional need within you. How you gain and recieve/give emotional energy to others to yourself. Many people identify more with their Moon sign than their Sun sign because the Moon represents what is inside of us. Our true emotional essence.

The Rising Sun - Is how you are PERCIEVED in the outside world. This is different than your Sun sign because this deals with how others treat you, see you and respond to you. You most likely subconsciously display a personality behavior without even realizing it. Any planet aspecing your Rising Sun can give you clues into why people respond to you in a certain way that you may not be aware of.

Venus - your love life, even money, passions, beauty...anything that we desire and enjoy. See where Venus lies in your chart and you will see where it manifests. For example if it is found in the 11th house which a house of friends, acquintancea and relationships of friendly nature - Venus impacts your relationship in a loving manner; making you seem as a desirous friend, pleasant and beautiful friend, etc. Venus also represents women's sexuality, love, romantic attachments.

Mars - is your inner warrior spirit. How you express your urges, aggression, will. Mars also rules men's sexuality but not LOVE. You can get an idea of a man's ideal loving emotional need from a woman by studying their Moon sign and where it is placed. Doing a comprehensive relationship chart of two people is called Synastry. It gives clues to compatibility, challenges, growth, etc

Mercury - everything to do with communication. Where does it lie in your chart? Does it have hard aspects which prevent you from expressing yourself? or is it easy for you to express in writing or verbally? Studying your Mercury placement will give you clues. I think most INFJs have Mercury in either the 12th house or 9th house because it always deals with working behind the scenes, writing in isolation or writing things in intellectual manner; yet depending on the aspects it makes with the rest of your chart you may find that you have hard time expressing yourself in love relationships, or find it challenging, etc. You can figure all this out pretty easily.

There is a lot of subtle distinctions in astrology that needs to be learned before trying to breakdown and analyze your chart. But the time spent learning your birth chart is well worth it; same as studying MBTI or enneagram or any other tools that give us insight and explanation of our behaviors.

 

[This]

There is a lot of subtle distinctions in astrology that needs to be learned before trying to breakdown and analyze your chart. But the time spent learning your birth chart is well worth it; same as studying MBTI or enneagram or any other tools that give us insight and explanation of our behaviors.

Can anyone explain to how where stars and planets are have anything at all to do with your personality? I'm very confused upon how these conclusions are drawn and I don't understand how it could help me "understand" anything about myself any better. I feel like there's something I'm missing here, can someone explain the actual science of all this?

 

[CorLeonis]

I personally hate when people try and "get to know me better and relate to me" through my astrological signs because I feel like those things misrepresent who I am and if people are so convinced of who I am before they even get to know me, it's a bit frustrating.

If anyone is using astrology before they actually know you... first of all, how did they get your chart?! ha. But, I know what you mean... sun signs. Bad use of astrology, and that would piss me off too. Just as much as when people say, "oh, I'm not going to like that person... they're a ______." Astrology does not dictate the world or human behavior, it just helps explain it. The person should be what you're learning from, astrology should be the tool to understanding those behaviors. Again, just my interpretation. But. Chyea.

If you make any judgement before you meet someone, whether that's astrology (or MBTI...?) is quite silly. Each person is different, and one INFJ will not be like another, any more than one Aries will be like another.

And... one more time, I'll say it... people assume astrology is sun signs, and that those behaviors are set in stone. They are not.

 

[CorLeonis]

Can anyone explain to how where stars and planets are have anything at all to do with your personality? I'm very confused upon how these conclusions are drawn and I don't understand how it could help me "understand" anything about myself any better. I feel like there's something I'm missing here, can someone explain the actual science of all this?

You're still assuming astrology is only useful if it's a hard science, and presents as fact. It's not meant to be fact, it's meant to be a tool, to discovery.

 

[This]

You're still assuming astrology is only useful if it's a hard science, and presents as fact. It's not meant to be fact, it's meant to be a tool, to discovery.

But where do the conclusions come from, what I mean is how is it discovery? I don't understand how it has anything at all to do with your personality.

 

[CorLeonis]

But where do the conclusions come from, what I mean is how is it discovery? I don't understand how it has anything at all to do with your personality.

I thought I posted something about this before? Maybe not.

On it's own, astrology has no meaning. It's when you combine it with the study of human nature, or a specific person, that it makes sense.

If it does not make sense to you, that's fine, and it doesn't have to. It will only work as a tool if it makes sense to you. Just like MBTI. Someone could think that's absolute bullshit, as much as astrology. Just because you answer some yes or no questions doesn't mean that a test knows who you are, either. Aye?

 

[Solongo]

Can anyone explain to how where stars and planets are have anything at all to do with your personality? I'm very confused upon how these conclusions are drawn and I don't understand how it could help me "understand" anything about myself any better. I feel like there's something I'm missing here, can someone explain the actual science of all this?

I experienced the same type of confusion when first learning astrology as well/ So i really feel you on this. But here is a breakdown of the METHOD that most intermediate or advanced astrologers rely on. I will not get into what the exact definitions of planets, signs, etc mean...but i will try to give a very basic overview. I am no expert and I am still learning.

First learn the difference between the planets (the Sun, Mercury, Pluto) and signs (Aries, Scorpio, etc).

The planets are the WHAT of any chart. For example ; Mercury deals with communication to be very simple.
The signs are HOW the planets are expressed in the chart. If Mercury the planet of communication is in your Libra - then your communication style will be expressed through diplomacy, fairness, judicial balance, mediation, etc because Libra is a sign of diplomacy, etc. If Mercury was found in Scorpio lets say then your communication will be more intense, with few strong words, powerful, maybe even intimidating, kind of communication people will take notice.

The House ( which a House system is divided into 12 houses - each representing an area of your life) - Is the WHERE all this planet/sign combo will manifest. Continuing the above example; lets say Mercury in Libra fall in your 6th house. 6th house represents daily chores, work, dealing with minor relationships, work related, minor work we do day to day to survive. In this case; Mercury in Libra will manifest in your life specifically in areas of your daily work, chores, responsibilities. This can mean that you deal with people in a diplomatic and fair manner and as a result of this placement you may find yourself working in jobs that require you to use this skill. Working in customer service, travel agent, etc.


This is the basic Method. To move forward after the basics: Things get even hairy when you add aspects to iy. Aspects are simply the geometric linkage between planets. The aspects run like basic geometry you have planets making 90 degree angle, 180 angle, etc. Each aspect has a specific nature or quality to it. Each angle/aspect is also regarded as challenging, harmonious or slightly difficult and so on. ASPECTS always color or alter the planet it is making an aspect with. For example: you may have Mercury conjunct (0 degrees) Uranus. Uranus is a planet of unexpected, rebelliousness, out of the ordinary, unstable, etc. This combo could result in your communication style to be spontaneous, out of the ordinary or unusual that draws people attention. Or you use your communication to fight against unfair authority, etc.

Progressions will give you insight on what is going on right now. Planets are always moving. Learning about the faster moving planets like the Moon, Venus, Mercury versus slow moving outer planets like Pluto, Uranus, etc also gives you insight into your psychological nature.


There is so much more to learn and study. I find it more complex and interesting than MBTI. You can dig and dig and gain understanding on yourself that only you will figure out. But i admit it is not easy in the beginning. I recommend books over websites if one is very serious. The ultimate goal of being an astrologer is to be intuitive reader, not following an already written script.

 

[Solongo]

But where do the conclusions come from, what I mean is how is it discovery? I don't understand how it has anything at all to do with your personality.

Astrology follows a code "As above, so below". If you have hard time understanding or even accepting this notion then astrology may not be for you. The planets represent basic human urges,drives and impulses in the human psyche. Again, if you look at the planets in an astronomy sense as gases or void planets without life form; then astrology may not make sense much. The attribution of various human psyche into planets has to make sense to the novice astrologer to move forward.

 

[CorLeonis]

Astrology follows a code "As above, so below". If you have hard time understanding or even accepting this notion then astrology may not be for you. The planets represent basic human urges,drives and impulses in the human psyche. Again, if you look at the planets in an astronomy sense as gases or void planets without life form; then astrology may not make sense much. The attribution of various human psyche into planets has to make sense to the novice astrologer to move forward.

I know I sent you a rep for the last one... but again... I like the way you describe it. Puts it much more eloquently than I have been! haha

 

[This]

Astrology follows a code "As above, so below". If you have hard time understanding or even accepting this notion then astrology may not be for you. The planets represent basic human urges,drives and impulses in the human psyche. Again, if you look at the planets in an astronomy sense as gases or void planets without life form; then astrology may not make sense much. The attribution of various human psyche into planets has to make sense to the novice astrologer to move forward.

Well what I'm most curious about is who decided what planets related to which parts of psyche and how is that determined?

 

[Solongo]

Well what I'm most curious about is who decided what planets related to which parts of psyche and how is that determined?

You are asking an ancient question. I would answer this by the earliest possible ancient civilizations in various parts of the world. The Chinese, Mayans, Babylonians. It took thousands of years of observation of the planetary movements and looking into the stars to determine it's messages. Initially the Babylonians studied the stars to predict famine, harvesting, the coming of new kings, wars. Soon it became apparent that when certain planets created aspects or correlations; situations and events seem to have happened on the earth plane. Sample example would be the prediction of War. Mars is the planet of War from ancient times. War is pretty common back then; and studying the motions and movements of Mars traveling around the Sun while making aspects to earth and other planets created a pattern. Most wars were fought during an strong Mars aspect. Astronomy, alchemy, astrology, science all were one science in the ancient times. Also a psychological factor started to emerge as a result of certain planetary placements. Such as Jupiter is just a planet. But when it made aspects in the sky, events such as good fortune, increase in money, good marriages, good harvesting seems to occur. hence it was given the attribution of a planet that deals with good fortune, luck, wish fulfillment, etc.

 

[SouthSummerWind]

Rising Sign is in 16 Degrees Scorpio
Sun is in 17 Degrees Taurus
Moon is in 10 Degrees Pisces
Mercury is in 22 Degrees Aries
Venus is in 29 Degrees Gemini
Mars is in 19 Degrees Cancer
Jupiter is in 05 Degrees Leo
Saturn is in 06 Degrees Aquarius
Uranus is in 13 Degrees Capricorn
Neptune is in 16 Degrees Capricorn
Pluto is in 19 Degrees Scorpio
N. Node is in 21 Degrees Capricorn

http://alabe.com/cgi-bin/chart/pics/2455630653127.gif

 

[dream echo]

I definitely agree that many people use astrology in the wrong manner. That's why I always, always begin conversations with astrology or someone's birth chart with trying to clarify that a birth chart shows possibilities. It shows the most likely possibility, but there is always potential for a human to change the way they relate to the world, or treat other people, or themselves... etc.

But on the same token, astrology is not a hard science, and that's why I feel like it's supposed to be fluid, not stagnant.

Maybe not the best example... but say you're studying... abnormal psychology. Take someone with schizophrenia (or any "disorder"). The study of the disease will tell you general traits and symptoms. But not every schizophrenic human WILL have the same symptoms, and when they do, they will not necessarily present them in the same way, or deal with that symptom in the same way.

Does that maybe clarify more of my view on astrology?

Yay for clarity! I'm glad you let people know that astrology isn't some fatalistic predictor that they should let take over their decision-making for them.

That said, if you recall, I did say I liked the fluidity of ideas like cusps. I agree that people change, and astrology (or any other system) must be flexible to remain relevant. My problem is that when I've tried to test out the cusp theory, it hasn't been conclusive. Some people see themselves in every sign, and are amazed by anything they read or hear.

Anyway, if I'm understanding you correctly, what you seem to be saying is that you feel astrology, despite having set rules, shouldn't be defined by them. (If this is the case...I would agree.) Either that or you're saying astrology is like schizophrenia, lol! Either way seems very Virgoan to me. <giggle>

BUT! (Don't tell me you didn't know this was coming?!) I never said I thought astrology should be stagnant. But structure would be nice. To me, accepting cusp theory without sample charts where i can try to feel how it's working would be like putting on the emperor's new clothes. (Trust me...very ill-advised. heh) If I don't feel there's anything there, I'm not going to buy them just because some kiss-ass crooks with an agenda tell me I should.

Again, not that I believe you're trying to do that. I guess theorizing is fun, but specific examples would better illustrate the point. Also, I hope that you don't feel like I'm being critical of you. I don't mean to be. You seem well-versed and enthusiastic about the topic. I'm enjoying our debate.:fencing:

Also...I just figured out something I should have realized before....:doh:

My Mercury is square your Sun!

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

 

[CorLeonis]

Yay for clarity! I'm glad you let people know that astrology isn't some fatalistic predictor that they should let take over their decision-making for them.

That said, if you recall, I did say I liked the fluidity of ideas like cusps. I agree that people change, and astrology (or any other system) must be flexible to remain relevant. My problem is that when I've tried to test out the cusp theory, it hasn't been conclusive. Some people see themselves in every sign, and are amazed by anything they read or hear.

Anyway, if I'm understanding you correctly, what you seem to be saying is that you feel astrology, despite having set rules, shouldn't be defined by them. (If this is the case...I would agree.) Either that or you're saying astrology is like schizophrenia, lol! Either way seems very Virgoan to me. <giggle>

BUT! (Don't tell me you didn't know this was coming?!) I never said I thought astrology should be stagnant. But structure would be nice. To me, accepting cusp theory without sample charts where i can try to feel how it's working would be like putting on the emperor's new clothes. (Trust me...very ill-advised. heh) If I don't feel there's anything there, I'm not going to buy them just because some kiss-ass crooks with an agenda tell me I should.

Again, not that I believe you're trying to do that. I guess theorizing is fun, but specific examples would better illustrate the point. Also, I hope that you don't feel like I'm being critical of you. I don't mean to be. You seem well-versed and enthusiastic about the topic. I'm enjoying our debate.:fencing:

Also...I just figured out something I should have realized before....:doh:

My Mercury is square your Sun!

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Nah, I don't take it as critical at all I like discussing, and I like people that question, and don't accept things outright. I do the same.

Hmm. Good examples... hmm.

Okay. I want to use the clearest two examples of a cusp person I've ever met- and they even relate! The two of them were friends.

I have a friend born on June 23. He is the epitome of a cusp person... and the way it expresses itself I find fascinating. He is very much a Cancer, emotionally. He is easily wounded, and hides in his shell, especially when he feels "snubbed" by women. He has trouble letting go. His mannerisms, however, are so Gemini it's sickening. He will be in the middle of a conversation, and literally in the middle of a sentence just, "walk off" like the wind is taking him. His mind suddenly switched gears, and he completely forgets what he was just doing. And often does not come back, nor realize he's taken off in the middle of a conversation.

The other, oddly, is his exact (to the T!) opposite. December 23. So we have a Gemini/Cancer, and Sagittarius/Capricorn.

The Sag/Cap was one of my best friends, so I got to see the cusp even more closely than the Gem/Cancer. He had the personality, and charisma, of a Sagittarius. The dedicated and practical mind of a Capricorn. He could strike up a conversation with anyone, anywhere... and this is what he did constantly... until he began working. He would throw himself completely into the work, and shut himself off from everyone until he felt he had a grasp on the work. He would get very frustrated with people who did not work hard.



These, of course, are only my observations based on sun sign. I do find sun signs useful for my own databank, and noticing patterns (I tend to have friendships with people that fall under certain signs, and tend to have love relationships with a different set of signs. In general. I never decide who to surround myself with based on sun sign, but I do look for the ones I've subconsciously attracted into my life.) But for general characteristics, and finding similarities and differences between people, it's fun. Maybe I should clarify then when I'm really doing a reading, I mention cusp, but don't really go much into it besides that. I find cusps useful if you are examining nothing else but sun signs. I really use astrology in many different ways. I guess it's surprising that a Virgo likes astrology for analyzing the crap out of everything? hahaa.