Deeper understanding of the Enneagram & Triads

[klutzo]

Dear IndigoSensor,
I DO understand that part of it that bugs you. To make matters worse, I took one MBTI typing test that had mottos for each type. The motto for INFJ was "things can always be improved". It's like a double whammy of Type 1!

My husband is Type 9w1. I don't want to nag him, but sometimes he is so s-l-o-w at doing something, I am tempted to get a cattle prod. When something has been on the "Honey Do" list for months, I just can't seem to keep my mouth shut about why it isn't done, and is he planning to do it while I'm still alive to enjoy it, etc. Then I feel guilty for having nagged. I go around muttering under my breath as I pick up things he has put back in the wrong place, a major sin. Is the picture hanging crooked on the wall? Did I forget to clip my toenails? Horror of horrors; I'm on the job, even if I have to get out of a cozy bed to fix it NOW. There is no place in my brain that understands why people would not try to constantly improve themselves. That many of them don't care about that at all makes me feel like I've been dropped here from another planet. That is the part that makes me feel the most guilty, ie. that I apply my super high standards of behavior to others and end up being so disappointed in them.

But, the faults of the other types are just as bad, and some would bother me much more. I'd rather be faulted for trying too hard, than for many of the flaws of the other types. Maybe if we tried to look at it that way, comparatively speaking, we could lessen our guilt.

klutzo

 

[KazeCraven]

Musings on Enneagram Triads

First, a question: does the triad include wings? And, if so, does it make sense to have something like 4w5 - 5w4 - #w#?

Next, an idea. This probably butchers the theory, but I was thinking that if we have three 'types', one in each center, perhaps these types can shift orders as well, depending on our life experiences. Seems to me that many people switch what their primary concern is at a turning point in their lives.

Finally, a concern. I think that the enneagram gets at something important by focusing on our personality being somewhat defined by our motivations and desires. However, I don't think that a single base motivation will only lead to a single overall personality and worldview. The enneagram makes some highly detailed descriptions based on desires and motivations, but I don't think they all logically follow.

 

[Tulip]

Yes you can have wings for your trifix, say you can be a 5w4-2w3-9w1. However, you can only belong to one core type from one of the triads. If you are a 5w4, you would be in the thinking center, your basic default strategy and defensive mechanism would be that of a core 5. Even though you have an image fix of 2w3 and a gut fix of 9w1 and relate to some of their issues, you are still a head type, not an image or instinctive type, and you would not experience the other 2 types fully like a core 2w3 or core 9w1 does.

So different image fixes and gut fixes may make the same core type appear differently. People with the same trifix but with a different core type may appear to be similar but you will find that their underlying defensive mechanisms are quite different if you examine them more closely. Adding instinctual stackings to the picture you will even have more variations of the same type.

 

[KazeCraven]

Hmmm, okay. So then, if my core type was, say 5, but my image fix was 4, would that mean I'd be 5w6-4w3-9w1? Or would it be 5w4-4w3-9w1? Is the latter, 'valid'?

 

[Tulip]

You can have either wing as your core type. So you need to first determine whether you are a core 5w4 or 5w6 first before looking at determining your trifix. If you have a 4 image fix, it depends on whether you are closer to 4w3 or 4w5, can be either.

So all of the below are valid:
5w6-4w5-9w1
5w6-4w3-9w1
5w4-4w5-9w1
5w4-4w3-9w1

 

[VH]

I highly identify with 8, 9, 1, and somewhat with 2 and 4. I really don't identify much with 5, 6, or 7. This sort of messes with the triad theory requiring one type from each center.

 

[KazeCraven]

Well, I've decided I disagree with the Enneagram, but I'd guess that if we're making it fit we could definitely say that you are instinctive - image - thinking, with thinking clearly your least influential center.

 

[VH]

Well, I've decided I disagree with the Enneagram, but I'd guess that if we're making it fit we could definitely say that you are instinctive - image - thinking, with thinking clearly your least influential center.

Heh, that seems like an insult somehow. LOL

 

[KazeCraven]

Ironically, that did cross my mind while typing that. But no, that wasn't my intent at all. Pssh, this is why the Enneagram should use letters for these centers, like A-B-C. Removes all connotations like do the numbers.

 

[Tulip]

I highly identify with 8, 9, 1, and somewhat with 2 and 4. I really don't identify much with 5, 6, or 7. This sort of messes with the triad theory requiring one type from each center.

8s are usually in the order of instinctive-thinking-feeling.
2s are feeling-instinctive-thinking.

Sexual first NFs regardless of type usually identify themselves with 4s to a certain extent.

It is also common for Christians and women to identify with 2s due to the culture of the community and the society. That is probably something you may want to take into account.

According to my general impression from your online presence, you probably have some sort of a 5w6 head fix the way you like to figure things out in terms of structures and statistics, etc.

 

[IndigoSensor]

According to my general impression from your online presence, you probably have some sort of a 5w6 head fix the way you like to figure things out in terms of structures and statistics, etc.

Nah, sorry that is really far off the mark. VH is not a five at all, and certainly not a 6 either. Besides, forum impression isn't the most accurate. It can be, but doesn't over lap. I've spoken to VH over the phone before, there is a difference between that and on the forums. He doesn't have a 5 vibe at all. I'd sense mostly an 8 vibe in him.

 

[Tulip]

Ironically, that did cross my mind while typing that. But no, that wasn't my intent at all. Pssh, this is why the Enneagram should use letters for these centers, like A-B-C. Removes all connotations like do the numbers.

Even if letters are used instead, they still imply the same things - image/feeling, head/thinking, gut/instinctive...so not much of a difference anyway.

 

[JohnDoe]

I'd sense mostly an 8 vibe in him.

As an 8 I agree.

 

[Tulip]

Nah, sorry that is really far off the mark. VH is not a five at all, and certainly not a 6 either. Besides, forum impression isn't the most accurate. It can be, but doesn't over lap. I've spoken to VH over the phone before, there is a difference between that and on the forums. He doesn't have a 5 vibe at all. I'd sense mostly an 8 vibe in him.

He is not a core 5 but he probably has a 5 head fix in his trifix.
I suggested the trifix 8w9-5w6-2w1 to him in another Enneagram thread.

People are usually more revealing online than in real life. There are things which you may not get to know in depth when you only know the person in person. Ideally, things people post online as well as meeting the person in real life would give a better all-round impression of type. If not possible to meet in person, a video would certainly help.

 

[KazeCraven]

Even if letters are used instead, they still imply the same things - image/feeling, head/thinking, gut/instinctive...so not much of a difference anyway.

Hmm, true. I suppose the different types (1-9) aren't exactly equal as-is either (as far as appeal goes).

 

[VH]

8s are usually in the order of instinctive-thinking-feeling.
2s are feeling-instinctive-thinking.

If I had to guess, I'd say I am instinctive-feeling-thinking? feeling-instinctive-thinking would be the case if I'm wrong. I have a hard time separating my understanding of feeling and instinct. They seem the same to me.

Sexual first NFs regardless of type usually identify themselves with 4s to a certain extent.

This is true. A fair amount of 4 does a good job of describing me. But other parts do not. Also, I'd like to point out that it's fairly even with respect to good and bad traits on both sides. For example, I'm very creative but I'm also prone to getting lost in my fantasies. I'm also prone to depression once I get over my initial angry response. But, I'm not envious and never have been. The closest I've come to envy is thinking to myself 'Ooo, I want one of those too', kinda along the same lines as 'that's a good idea'. My idealism is more ethical than aesthetic, but I have that streak of wanting the world to be a certain way based on my own personal sensibilities. Then again, I'm not at all shy, withdrawn, nor whiny.

It is also common for Christians and women to identify with 2s due to the culture of the community and the society. That is probably something you may want to take into account.

I can see this. Good point. I certainly aspire to the Christian ideals of caring for others. However, my biggest reason for considering 2 is my need to be loved. The only reason I think I'm not a 2 is that I don't operate on emotional currency. I genuinely enjoy helping people, whether or not they appreciate it. Sure, I'd prefer they did, but I don't do things for the appreciation or repayment. I also don't look for ways to help people. I'm an opportunist when it comes to that. If a way to help someone presents itself I'll usually take it.

I can also see how my Christianity and ENFJness causes me to strongly identify with the idealism of Type 1. In fact, I think this effect causes me to identify more with Type 1 than Type 2.

However, my deepest motivation is to be loved by a soul mate. (I would honestly live and die for this...) After that, I seek love from my core group of friends in the form of distant affection and loyalty. It hurts when they don't return my loyalty. I feel very betrayed. Otherwise, i don't care if people love me. I'd prefer they did, but if they don't then it's their loss, and if they decide they want to be enemies, then it's really their loss.

According to my general impression from your online presence, you probably have some sort of a 5w6 head fix the way you like to figure things out in terms of structures and statistics, etc.

Possibly. Of all of the 5, 6, and 7 variants, 5 seems to be the most accurate description of my 'head'. I think this jives with my Ti as well. For an ENFJ, I'd like to think I have a pretty solid Ti. (One of many things that had been causing me to assume that I wasn't an ENFJ.) A lot of Ti dominant types are 5s. I don't know if I'd go 5w6 or 5w4 though. I think safety and security are equally as important to me as my emotions and fantasy life...

He is not a core 5 but he probably has a 5 head fix in his trifix.
I suggested the trifix 8w9-5w6-2w1 to him in another Enneagram thread.

What about 8w9-2w1-5w4? Or can triads not go that direction?

People are usually more revealing online than in real life. There are things which you may not get to know in depth when you only know the person in person. Ideally, things people post online as well as meeting the person in real life would give a better all-round impression of type. If not possible to meet in person, a video would certainly help.

Indigo has a very good impression of who I am in both regards. I'm much more formal online. However, Indigo does try too hard to put things into boxes and lock them there.

 

[Tulip]

If I had to guess, I'd say I am instinctive-feeling-thinking? feeling-instinctive-thinking would be the case if I'm wrong. I have a hard time separating my understanding of feeling and instinct. They seem the same to me.

instinctive-feeling-thinking is Type 1
feeling-instinctive-thinking is Type 2

The instinctive types (8,9,1) are more grounded and more rely on their gut feeling.
The image types (2,3,4) are more image-oriented.

Do you see yourself as more image conscious or more grounded?

This is true. A fair amount of 4 does a good job of describing me. But other parts do not. Also, I'd like to point out that it's fairly even with respect to good and bad traits on both sides. For example, I'm very creative but I'm also prone to getting lost in my fantasies. I'm also prone to depression once I get over my initial angry response. But, I'm not envious and never have been. The closest I've come to envy is thinking to myself 'Ooo, I want one of those too', kinda along the same lines as 'that's a good idea'. My idealism is more ethical than aesthetic, but I have that streak of wanting the world to be a certain way based on my own personal sensibilities. Then again, I'm not at all shy, withdrawn, nor whiny.

Depression is not limited to 4s.
Depression is unproductive but melancholy can be creative and aesthetic.

Other types can be creative but 4's creativity is linked to their needs to use their feelings to create an identity. 4s use their imagination to intensify their feelings and to create their own personal story as if they are real themselves. They romanticize their own tragedy and find beauty in them. Their envy of others is something to do with their shameful feelings of being defective and inadequate.

I can see this. Good point. I certainly aspire to the Christian ideals of caring for others. However, my biggest reason for considering 2 is my need to be loved. The only reason I think I'm not a 2 is that I don't operate on emotional currency. I genuinely enjoy helping people, whether or not they appreciate it. Sure, I'd prefer they did, but I don't do things for the appreciation or repayment. I also don't look for ways to help people. I'm an opportunist when it comes to that. If a way to help someone presents itself I'll usually take it.

2w1s mostly help others out of principle and are less likely to impress than 2w3s. I think most 2s do not have the stream of consciousness that they are helping others in exchange for love or repayment.

Possibly. Of all of the 5, 6, and 7 variants, 5 seems to be the most accurate description of my 'head'. I think this jives with my Ti as well. For an ENFJ, I'd like to think I have a pretty solid Ti. (One of many things that had been causing me to assume that I wasn't an ENFJ.) A lot of Ti dominant types are 5s. I don't know if I'd go 5w6 or 5w4 though. I think safety and security are equally as important to me as my emotions and fantasy life...

Though there is not a strict correlation between Enneagram and MBTI types. Most 8s are ENTJs. Do you have a borderline T/F? I am thinking you are most likely 8w9 with a 2w1 image fix or an 2w1 with a 8w9 gut fix. I guess being sexual first can be more 'F' and may make the 8s seem softer. If you are thinking center last it may be less apparent to you what wing of head fix you have. You can compare the thinking style between 5w4 and 5w6 to see which one is closer to you. 5w4s have a thinking process that is less linear and more subjective. 5w6s are more incremental, analytical and more structured, more based on statistics.

What about 8w9-2w1-5w4? Or can triads not go that direction?

There are a few theories about how the trifix should be ordered.

One Enneagram theory uses position of the type in ordering:
(2-3-4)-(5-6-7)-(8-9-1)

For an 8, it is closer to the thinking center and furthest away from the image center, hence is instinctive-thinking-image.
For a 2, it is closer to the instinctive center and furthest away from the thinking center, hence is image-instinctive-thinking.

Another Enneagram theory says whatever center that you feel you relate to better and hence can be in any order depending on the person regardless of core type. Hence an 8 can be either instinctive-thinking-image or instinctive-image-thinking.

The third theory says the trifix needs to be ordered in clockwise direction.

 

[VH]

instinctive-feeling-thinking is Type 1
feeling-instinctive-thinking is Type 2

The instinctive types (8,9,1) are more grounded and more rely on their gut feeling.
The image types (2,3,4) are more image-oriented.

Do you see yourself as more image conscious or more grounded?

I don't think I'm image conscious. I could be, but I'm one of those people who seems to have an image/identity even though I didn't really craft it. People just 'know' who I am by reputation, even though they're usually wrong. I am however, much more concerned with being loved than anything... especially by a soul mate and the people closest to me. When I am healthy, by everyone if possible, but when I'm unhealthy, I am much less concerned with it and am prone to 'us vs. them' mentality (though that's Fe right there).

Since I'm having trouble deciding if I'm instinct-feeling or feeling-instinct, wouldn't that imply that I'm a 2w1 or a 1w2 since these are a mix of them?

Depression is not limited to 4s.
Depression is unproductive but melancholy can be creative and aesthetic.

Other types can be creative but 4's creativity is linked to their needs to use their feelings to create an identity. 4s use their imagination to intensify their feelings and to create their own personal story as if they are real themselves. They romanticize their own tragedy and find beauty in them. Their envy of others is something to do with their shameful feelings of being defective and inadequate.

I don't find beauty in my 'tragedies'. I just want them to not be wrong anymore. If I do find inspiration from them, it's to create fantasies where they are 'fixed'. My creativity seems to center around helping people and inspiring them, or lashing out in my 'us vs. them' modes where the 'bad guys' get their asses kicked.

2w1s mostly help others out of principle and are less likely to impress than 2w3s. I think most 2s do not have the stream of consciousness that they are helping others in exchange for love or repayment.

This might actually lead me back to 2w1 then. I help people because knowing that I helped them, makes me feel good. I do it because it's the right thing to do, and doing right makes me feel good. This is magnified for the people closest to me. Making them feel good makes me happy, and I'll do all manner of little special things for them without them having a need. While other people have to present me with a need (even if they don't ask... just seeing that they have an obvious need motivates me) before I will take action. In other words, the more important someone is to me the more proactive I am about doing things for them to make them happy (can be very impractical too). The less important someone is to me, the more reactive I am about helping them (almost always practical though). I'm assuming that's the sexual subtype filter creating those preferences.

Though there is not a strict correlation between Enneagram and MBTI types. Most 8s are ENTJs. Do you have a borderline T/F?

I wouldn't call it borderline, but sometimes I score T, and my F scores are rarely higher than moderate. My N over S is always my strongest axis - with N always being high. My T and F are the weaker axis.

I am thinking you are most likely 8w9 with a 2w1 image fix or an 2w1 with a 8w9 gut fix. I guess being sexual first can be more 'F' and may make the 8s seem softer. If you are thinking center last it may be less apparent to you what wing of head fix you have. You can compare the thinking style between 5w4 and 5w6 to see which one is closer to you. 5w4s have a thinking process that is less linear and more subjective. 5w6s are more incremental, analytical and more structured, more based on statistics.

I'd read that being sexual first makes a person more bold than their type normally implies, but also more accepting - thus increasing E and decreasing J. This is part of why I've been considering 2, 4, and 9. The sexual variant descriptions are much more like me. The social 8 is more like me than the sexual 8.

There are a few theories about how the trifix should be ordered.

One Enneagram theory uses position of the type in ordering:
(2-3-4)-(5-6-7)-(8-9-1)

For an 8, it is closer to the thinking center and furthest away from the image center, hence is instinctive-thinking-image.
For a 2, it is closer to the instinctive center and furthest away from the thinking center, hence is image-instinctive-thinking.

Another Enneagram theory says whatever center that you feel you relate to better and hence can be in any order depending on the person regardless of core type. Hence an 8 can be either instinctive-thinking-image or instinctive-image-thinking.

The third theory says the trifix needs to be ordered in clockwise direction.

In other words, it's all conjecture. Gotcha.

 

[KazeCraven]

Not surprised (at the different interpretations). Hence why I've taken serious liberties with the theory lately.

*is convinced that we can switch primary centers, despite no evidence from original theory to suggest this*

 

[VH]

Not surprised (at the different interpretations). Hence why I've taken serious liberties with the theory lately.

*is convinced that we can switch primary centers*

This would make a LOT of sense in my case.

An adaptive theory would also make a lot more sense for anyone who's had to work through different forms of long term stress. Eventually, an individual has to overcome the stress by adapting or give up and accept their failure. Both of these have an affect on the psyche.

Depending on my mood and what I'm dealing with, I can see several Enneatypes, and can even see how I juggle them to adapt to my situations.