Deeper understanding of the Enneagram & Triads

[VH]

interesting, that does sound more like 8 behavior, especially the part about wanting to protect others. you don't come across as combative as the typical 8 though, at least not online, but i guess in real life you'd be presenting a different picture. you seem to get along with people easily, which made me suspect 9. 8's are more in your face, more openly hostile to some (at least, those i've observed). provocative, rather than reactive.

I'm much more proactive than reactive. I'm also intense and am not at all afraid of debate, and don't tend to shy away from conflict. I don't like conflict, but if I'm 'attacked', I'll fight back with a fervor before I come to my senses and realize maybe I shouldn't have done that. I've also been in more fights than I can count, and have had combat oriented careers - but I was attracted to them by my idealistic desire to help and protect people.

Also, people tell me I'm quite intense, even when I'm doing nothing. The simmering volcano analogy is very accurate for me apparently.

hey, what type do you think i am? i thought 5 before, but i'm not that detached

both not always easy to talk about my feelings, but i'm definitely aware of them, and i find myself reaching out to people when i'm bored (which i don't think 5's do)

I think you're a 5w4 social variant.

the 4 wing gives you more emotional depth and the social variant gives you the reaching out.

I have a few really good friends who are 5s. They're not completely withdrawn, just prone to withdrawing as a reaction to stress.

 

[BlinkandThink]

both not always easy to talk about my feelings, but i'm definitely aware of them, and i find myself reaching out to people when i'm bored (which i don't think 5's do)

Do either of these feel right?

5w4 - Seeking Knowledge and Identity

The difference between the 4 wing and the 6 wing in Fives is like the difference between Art and Science. 4 wing brings an abstract, intuitive cast of thought, as though the Five were thinking in geometric shapes instead of words or realistic images. May be talented artistically and inhabit moods like Fours do. Combine intellectual and emotional imagination. Enjoy the realm of philosophy and beautiful constructs of thought. The marriage of mental perspective and aesthetics is the best of life for them. When more defensive may seem a little ghostly, have a whisper in their voice. Fluctuate between impersonal withdrawal and bursts of friendly caring. Can get floaty and abstract. Act like they're inside a bubble, sometimes with an air of implicit superiority. Clich

 

[TinyBubbles]

I'm much more proactive than reactive. I'm also intense and am not at all afraid of debate, and don't tend to shy away from conflict. I don't like conflict, but if I'm 'attacked', I'll fight back with a fervor before I come to my senses and realize maybe I shouldn't have done that. I've also been in more fights than I can count, and have had combat oriented careers - but I was attracted to them by my idealistic desire to help and protect people.

Also, people tell me I'm quite intense, even when I'm doing nothing. The simmering volcano analogy is very accurate for me apparently.

damn, a simmering volcano! lol, that settles it, you're 8w9. from this post alone i can tell you have very strong beliefs, which 9s generally don't.

I think you're a 5w4 social variant.

the 4 wing gives you more emotional depth and the social variant gives you the reaching out.

I have a few really good friends who are 5s. They're not completely withdrawn, just prone to withdrawing as a reaction to stress.

thanks for that yeah i definitely do withdraw under stress.. that parts totally accurate. under stress i feel like i need to get away from everything and everyone and recalibrate my thoughts in total privacy. but it takes a lot to put me in that phase. normally i'm pretty happy to talk to others, i sometimes can't stop talking, lol

 

[TinyBubbles]

Do either of these feel right?

Quote:
5w4 - Seeking Knowledge and Identity

The difference between the 4 wing and the 6 wing in Fives is like the difference between Art and Science. 4 wing brings an abstract, intuitive cast of thought, as though the Five were thinking in geometric shapes instead of words or realistic images. May be talented artistically and inhabit moods like Fours do. Combine intellectual and emotional imagination. Enjoy the realm of philosophy and beautiful constructs of thought. The marriage of mental perspective and aesthetics is the best of life for them. When more defensive may seem a little ghostly, have a whisper in their voice. Fluctuate between impersonal withdrawal and bursts of friendly caring. Can get floaty and abstract. Act like they're inside a bubble, sometimes with an air of implicit superiority. Clich

 

[KazeCraven]

That said, there are a few things that point to me being a 2.

Maybe you are, indeed, a 2. Consider these:

Eight - The Boss
Expressing love through protection and power. Liking the truth that comes out in a fight. Pushing for contact. At ease with anger. Stand up for your people. Securing the bunker at work. Gravitating to positions of authority and control, Eights set the rules in love and business life. At its best, the take-charge stance develops leaders who use their power wisely. As a power stance, the best defense is a good offense.

Worldview: The world is an unjust place. I defend the innocent.

Two - The Giver
Ensuring love by being helpful. Managing other people's lives. Supporting and pleasing intimates. The power behind the throne at work. Different aspects of self emerge to meet the needs of others. A self for the team, a self for the boss, many selves for private life. At its best, this giving is altruistic and generous. As a defensive gesture, giving is geared to getting something in return.

Worldivew: People depend on my help. I am needed.

 

[Peppermint]

Saw this on another forum, maybe it'd be useful to someone.

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/enneagram/34028-theory-behind-enneagram-pdf-maitri-s-book.html

ps. check out their enneagram section, it has a nice collection of info.

 

[VH]

damn, a simmering volcano! lol, that settles it, you're 8w9. from this post alone i can tell you have very strong beliefs, which 9s generally don't.

I have adamant opinions. I've made people cry because I refuse to budge when I know I'm right. I don't like it when people I care about cry... not at all, but I'm constantly not realizing how forceful of a personality I have, and then getting surprised when people call me on it. You're probably right about me being an 8w9. It stands to reason that the 2 and 8 connection could go both ways.

thanks for that yeah i definitely do withdraw under stress.. that parts totally accurate. under stress i feel like i need to get away from everything and everyone and recalibrate my thoughts in total privacy. but it takes a lot to put me in that phase. normally i'm pretty happy to talk to others, i sometimes can't stop talking, lol

Classic 5 right there.

of those the 5w4 probably matches me most, 5w6 least. i ask plenty of questions though~! which is 6ish, but i'm not that technically minded and am definitely much more of an artist. don't relate to the falling in love with death part of 4w5 at all, but do to the existential depression ;-;

It seems to me that 5's would ask the most questions. 5's seek knowledge and the best way to find it is asking questions. 6's are more concerned with security and loyalty from others.

i'm probably 5w4. thanks guys

Glad to help.

Maybe you are, indeed, a 2. Consider these:

Originally Posted by Helen Palmer
Eight - The Boss
Expressing love through protection and power. Liking the truth that comes out in a fight. Pushing for contact. At ease with anger. Stand up for your people. Securing the bunker at work. Gravitating to positions of authority (though it just happens like that without me 'trying') and control, Eights set the rules in love and business life. At its best, the take-charge stance develops leaders who use their power wisely. As a power stance, the best defense is a good offense. (though I'm more inclined to say that the best defense is making people know you have a good offense. You don't need to use it. The second best defense is a solid defense.)

Worldview: The world is an unjust place. I defend the innocent. (Dead on)

Originally Posted by Helen Palmer
Two - The Giver
Ensuring love by being helpful. Managing other people's lives. Supporting and pleasing intimates. The power behind the throne at work. Different aspects of self emerge to meet the needs of others. A self for the team, a self for the boss, many selves for private life. At its best, this giving is altruistic and generous. As a defensive gesture, giving is geared to getting something in return.

Worldivew: People depend on my help. I am needed.

Yeah, looks like 8.

That description reminds me of how one of my friends told me he was amazed at how unafraid of getting in a fight (verbal argument that could escalate into a physical fight). The first thing that hit me was, "Why the hell wouldn't I be? What are they gonna do, punch me, beat me up? Been there, done that, ain't scared of it." And the second thing that hit me was realizing just how little problem I had with him being too weak (of spirit) to do the same. I'd protect him just the same, without even considering that he should protect himself.

 

[Reon]

I asked my friends which type I am the most like. The consensus was 8, but the justification was always "when you get stressed you do this or that on the description of 8s". However, it was a tough call for them to decide between 8 and 1, and they unanimously decided that I seem more concerned with not being helpless or controlled (8) than I was concerned with being defective or evil (1).

I've always scored high on 1, 2, and 8, sometimes 4 when I test for Enneagram. I then decided to poke around and read all of the Enneatypes, and found something interesting. I hadn't considered the possibility of 2, as my main type because it was never at the top of my scores, and I'd always assumed that the 2's need to be nice to people in order to get what they need was a conscious effort and planned manipulation... rather than a subconscious motivation. That was a real turning point for me. I don't do these things consciously, but I do them instinctively without meaning to. My idealism won't let me consciously 'manipulate' people because I care too much about them and doing the right thing, but apparently I'm a master of doing it unconsciously as I clearly need to be loved.

That said, there are a few things that point to me being a 2.

- At the absolute bottom of my motivations list (after everything else is ruled out as a motivation by asking 'why') is "Because no one will love me if I don't." That's a very 2 statement when there is no other motivation behind it.
- My tests always put 1, 2, 8, and sometimes 4 as the top results. 2 ties to 8 (stress) and 4 (growth) according to Enneagram Institute's version of triads. When I am stressed, I become very 8 like. When I am being creative, I am at my best, which is very 4 like. If I'm a 1 wing, then that would explain my idealism and less deliberate methods of being nice to people in order to gain love.
- 2 is the most common type for ENFJs, which I have long suspected I might actually be, and if I'm not, I am a borderline INFJ / ENFJ. Also, 2 isn't especially uncommon for INFJs.

- 2 males often mistype as 8s. I suspect this is because males have cultural expectations put upon them about how to gain love (not just romantic love, but all forms of love) that can push them to act like 8s - such as love is the repayment for protection and a man must be strong and independent to be worthy of love - and therefore when stressed feel very justified in acting like 8s.

If I am a 2, I am definitely a 2w1. I've often fixated on the fact that I am an idealist, but I think my need to be loved drives me more than my idealism, and if the two had to come into question I'd be hard pressed but the more I think about it, and look back on my life, I can see that I'm more willing to bend my idealism than my need to be loved - which I can't really change. My ideals are important to me, but they're in addition to my need to be loved which is really starting to show itself as being an emotional constant.

And I have no doubt that I'm a sexual subtype. That would make me a 2w1 sx/so.

Again with the connection to 8.

This graphic pretty much maps out my subconscious...

And this graphic displays the connection between 2, 8, and 4. (Enneagram Institute triad theory)

Toss in a 1 wing, and you've got 2w1 > 8w7 > 4w3. These seem to do a very good job of describing me when I'm at my best and worst.

2w1 sx/so does a good job of describing my inherent state. I just want someone to love me (sx), and for the people around me to love me and one another (w1 and /so).

8w7 does a good job of describing my stressed state. I can be a very pushy self serving dick when I'm stressed, but my stress seems to always come from feeling like I am unlovable, and if I'm unlovable or no one is capable of giving me what I need then fuck it, I might as well indulge my passions. (and my idealism always kicks my ass later for this because every time I do, I feel even less like I am worthy of the love I need)

4w3 does a good job of describing me when I'm in a growth phase. When I'm at my best I'm creative and enterprising, though again this seems to stem from my need to be loved and care for people. I always try to use my creativity to help and protect others, but the deeper I look at this, the more clearly my motivation is to gain love and adoration with the use of my talents to impress people. I'm not really motivated to make art for myself, though once I start making it my art is very personal. I make it for others, to impress them, but also to be adored for the sincere expression of who I am. That's very 4w3.

^ for what it's worth VH you kind of remind me of [MENTION=362]Reon[/MENTION];

Yeah, I see a lot of myself in him. If I were an INTJ, I think I'd be a lot like Reon. What is his Enneagram type?

Well, from the various tests I've taken, I tend to get 5, 9, 1, and 8. As of lately, my scores have become more predominantly 9w8 (or 8w9) sx/sp/so. I've high lighted two things in your paragraph [MENTION=708]VH[/MENTION] that are very similar to me. The only real difference is that my stress tends to come from not being competent and as such, I see myself as inferior and undeserving of love and such. It's a major hit to me when someone (close to me) questions my ability at something because they are my friends and as such, I take their word seriously, and if I'm not competent then how I am to actually be a beneficial friend?

[MENTION=1926]April[/MENTION]; I am, in all honesty, kinda shocked that I remind you of VH. I just don't see it o.o.

Edit: Also, I don't typically ever really get all that stressed. You have to push, pick, and bug me until a point where I just can't deal with it anymore, after that, I will not pull any punches. I also tend to think that a good conflicts clears the air, so to speak.

 

[Billy]

ugh...

 

[TinyBubbles]

Well, from the various tests I've taken, I tend to get 5, 9, 1, and 8. As of lately, my scores have become more predominantly 9w8 (or 8w9) sx/sp/so. I've high lighted two things in your paragraph @VH that are very similar to me. The only real difference is that my stress tends to come from not being competent and as such, I see myself as inferior and undeserving of love and such.

Awww! [MENTION=362]Reon[/MENTION]; i had no idea, you don't seem like you have such issues ;-; you reminded me of @VH; mainly because you seem calm and self aware like him, but from what you just said and how VH described how he is in real life, the similarities seem rather superficial, and the underlying motivations quite divergent.
i can see 5 and 9 in you easily, but not 8 anymore as i've concluded VH must be.
(also, you're totally worthy of love~ and it's got nothing to do with your competence! people love you for you, not because of what skills you can bring to them - that's just a bonus

 

[VH]

Well, from the various tests I've taken, I tend to get 5, 9, 1, and 8. As of lately, my scores have become more predominantly 9w8 (or 8w9) sx/sp/so. I've high lighted two things in your paragraph @VH that are very similar to me. The only real difference is that my stress tends to come from not being competent and as such (this is without a doubt a type 5 motivation), I see myself as inferior and undeserving of love (this is without a doubt an sx subtype motivation) and such. It's a major hit to me when someone (close to me) questions my ability at something because they are my friends and as such, I take their word seriously, and if I'm not competent then how I am to actually be a beneficial friend?

Edit: Also, I don't typically ever really get all that stressed. You have to push, pick, and bug me until a point where I just can't deal with it anymore, after that, I will not pull any punches. I also tend to think that a good conflicts clears the air, so to speak.

5 has a strong connection to 8, and I could see how a mix of the two could seem very 9ish. A lot of what you described here seems very 5 sx.

@April; I am, in all honesty, kinda shocked that I remind you of VH. I just don't see it o.o.

Our manner of self presentation on the internet seems to have some similarities, as well as a strong desire to figure ourselves out. Agreed that our deeper descriptions seem to defy each other.

(also, you're totally worthy of love~ and it's got nothing to do with your competence! people love you for you, not because of what skills you can bring to them - that's just a bonus

Great advice for a 5 sx, right there.

 

[Tulip]

VH, I don't see you as a 4 or a 9. I think you could be a 8w9 with a 2w1 image fix in your tritype.

What makes you consider yourself the sx/so stacking over so/sx?

 

[VH]

VH, I don't see you as a 4 or a 9. I think you could be a 8w9 with a 2w1 image fix in your tritype.

What makes you consider yourself the sx/so stacking over so/sx?

Sexual
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 82%
Social
||||||||||||||| 46%
Self Preservation
|||||||||||| 38%

What is an image fix?

 

[Tulip]

There is yet an Enneagram test which I find reliable in typing people's Enneagram type as well as instinct subtype.

Have you looked at this site on sx/so and so/sx 8?

http://ocean-moonshine.net/e1428573...er_op=view_page&PAGE_id=40&MMN_position=89:80

Which do you find closer to you?

 

[Tulip]

It is said that there are 3 intelligence centers - head triad (5,6,7), image triad (2,3,4) and instinctive triad (8,9,1).

You have one type from each intelligence center that would influence your behaviour, some call it trifix and some call it tritype.

One of them is your core type and the other two are type energies that would influence your main type.

 

[VH]

There is yet an Enneagram test which I find reliable in typing people's Enneagram type as well as instinct subtype.

Have you looked at this site on sx/so and so/sx 8?

http://ocean-moonshine.net/e1428573...er_op=view_page&PAGE_id=40&MMN_position=89:80

Which do you find closer to you?

Yes, I've looked at this site and found it helpfully descriptive.

2w1 was very accurate. 2 so/sx and 2 sx/so were equally accurate as I could see myself swinging between them. Though the straight 2 description was much less accurate without the w1 distinctions to bend things into the correct perspective. For example, I'd be reading the 2 description and think to myself "I could see that, but in this other context", like the idea of giving in order to gain something isn't really me but the 2w1 and the so/sx descriptions reinterpreted that instinct in a way that was very much me. 2w1 provided a paradigm shift that met that context much more accurately.

1w2 and 1 so/sx were very accurate. The straight 1 description was less accurate without the w2 distinctions, but the straight 1 description was more accurate than the straight 2 description. 1 sx/so was almost as accurate as the 1 so/sx description, but the distinctions were noticeable.

The description of 8 is about as accurate as 1 and 2, but again there is a lot of "I could see that in this context..." but the description of 8 could not apply to me without the w9 paradigm shift. Again the so/sx is slightly more accurate than the sx/so. There are elements of 8 that don't jive well with me. I'm not that much of a pushy domineering person. I'm actually very affable and peace seeking, especially predisposed to care about and help others. In fact, one of the things that I am most likely to stand up for is others' comfort and right to peace and harmony. I end up in a leadership role frequently, but it's because people tend to follow me without my asking. Lastly, my idealism and convictions rule me... something that an 8 would not allow... as they focus more on power than ideals and rebel against the notions that might control them. I'm very much not like that, even though I march to the beat of my own drummer.

The description of 4s has some merit, but not as much as the others... though the sx/so description was the most accurate this time.

And not surprisingly, the 9 description was very much an "In this context" sort of thing. Most of them were places that overlapped with the things I saw in the 2 description, like the desire to help people, be kind, and care. There were a lot of areas in the description of 9s that were just not possible to be my type - most importantly the ability to be unaffected by stress or doing wrong. If I thought I did something wrong, especially if I thought I wronged someone, it would eat me up inside (evidence against both 9 and 8, though 9w1 seems to compensate for this). I do however, have a profound tendency to zone out, and get lost in my head, but it's not a reaction to stress. It just happens. A lot, and it causes me a lot of stress that I can't manage it well enough to be successful. Just like the 4, the sx/so description was much more accurate than the so/sx, and the most telling part of this was the same as the 1 sx - the internal conflict between two very strong but often opposing energies.

What I'm noticing here is that with the more assertive types (1 and 8), the so/sx is a better description, while the less assertive types (4 and 9) sx/so is a better description. Apparently I'm somewhere in the middle on the assertion scale... less than the assertive types, more than the unassertive types. The type 2 stacks seemed tied, which makes sense since it is a mid-assertive type.

It is said that there are 3 intelligence centers - head triad (5,6,7), image triad (2,3,4) and instinctive triad (8,9,1).

You have one type from each intelligence center that would influence your behaviour, some call it trifix and some call it tritype.

One of them is your core type and the other two are type energies that would influence your main type.

I assumed that triads were kind of set (1-4-7, 2-5-8, 3-6-9) or something similar (like 4 triads to 1 and 2). I've yet to read that each individual's triads are unique. I like that theory, but don't know what to make of it since I'm more focused on the possibility of 8, 9, and 1 with maybe some 2 thrown in. Those don't seem to triad well in this theory. According to this perspective, I seem to be more of an instinctive type. Even if I am a 2, I'm definitely a 2w1.

If I were a type 1, these descriptions really hit home well, maybe even better than the 2w1...

1w2 - Seeking Rightness and Love
LifeExplore
This wing generally brings more interpersonal warmth. High standards are tempered by humanism. May understand and partly forgive humanity for not doing its best. Work hard to improve the conditions of others, sacrificing time and energy to do good works. When more entranced, can be volatile and self-righteous. Authoritarian inflation and moral vanity on the low side. Can give scolding lectures or display a kind of touchy emotionalism. "Do as I say, not as I do" attitudes possible. Hypocrisy likely because the person is so convinced they have moral good intentions. Overlook inconsistencies in their own behavior. Dependency in relationships. Far more likely to be a jealous intimate subtype than Ones with a 9 wing.

Social/Sexual

The social/sexual One will have the same concerns as the social/self-pres types, however those concerns center more on individuals. Rules aren’t quite as important. They will zero in on what they want to make better and the intensity of their conviction is more obvious. Along with this, they are more personable, somewhat "lighter" and don’t generally take themselves as seriously. They can have a great sense of humor.

On the down side, their sensitivity can cause them to hold grudges. Because the self-pres instinct is last, this subtype could easily be mistaken for other enneatypes. Along with the sexual/social subtype, they can even be somewhat sloppy. Usually, there is still a sense of organization and a desire to do the job right, but there is much less emphasis on perfectionism in the material, physical environment. Most of their focus is on people and society. With this as their focus, they can be quite persuasive when it comes to their chosen causes. On the down side, when this extra outward energy is taken too far, they can approach the world with the attitude that they need to be right at all costs.

I'm really starting to think all of them (8w9 so/sx, 1w2 so/sx, and 2w1 sx/so) are just as good of a fit as each other and perhaps it's as simple as the fact that I am resentful of people trying to control me, have a deep idealistic streak, and sincerely want to be loved... and seek harmony. Enneagram is based on motivations, and those are mine. Who's to say someone only has one. Maybe this is where the unique triad theory stems from. Some people have more than one 'base' motivation. I've got some issues that stem from a few long term stresses, such as a whole lot of child abuse, and life circumstances that had forced me to adapt and become stronger more than once...each time forcing me to let go of more of my idealism about how things should be. Kinda seems like I've moved from a 1 to an 8.

 

[Tulip]

I end up in a leadership role frequently, but it's because people tend to follow me without my asking.

8s are naturally leaders.

Rules aren

 

[Tulip]

I assumed that triads were kind of set (1-4-7, 2-5-8, 3-6-9) or something similar (like 4 triads to 1 and 2). I've yet to read that each individual's triads are unique. I like that theory, but don't know what to make of it since I'm more focused on the possibility of 8, 9, and 1 with maybe some 2 thrown in. Those don't seem to triad well in this theory. According to this perspective, I seem to be more of an instinctive type. Even if I am a 2, I'm definitely a 2w1.

What you described here sounds like the integration and disintegration paths between different types (1-4-2-8-5-7 and 3-6-9) The 3 intelligence centers I mentioned above is something different:

Image triad - to do with self-image and identity
Head triad - to do with thinking style
Instinctive triad - to do with instinctive response and defining boundaries

I would say a person of primary image type (2,3,4) would be more image-oriented and image conscious, more aware of how they come across to others. A person of primary head type (5,6,7) would be more "thinking too much" to protect themselves from the world. A person of primary instinctive type (8,9,1) would be more grounded and rely more on their gut instinct.

 

[Tulip]

What I'm noticing here is that with the more assertive types (1 and 8), the so/sx is a better description, while the less assertive types (4 and 9) sx/so is a better description.

Instinctual variants describe the order of your instinct and should be independent of your Enneagram type, though the Enneagram type can influence how the instinctual variants manifest in a person.

The first instinct would be the most neurotic and obsessive, it is where the primary focus of the person. The last instinct is usually the most neglected, it is what the person can do without without too much difficulty. The middle instinct is more in between and hence can be the most balanced instinct depending on the person.

 

[Gaze]

Can anyone explain the most basic or obvious differences between the 4w5 and the 5w4. Feels like i'm on the borderline considering the descriptions.