Can you truly love someone you don't trust?
- Thread starter Satya
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That's a good question.
I can only answer based on my own situations, and honestly, the way it happens for me isn't necessarily balanced. I usually don't trust someone all at once. I'm patient with my trust, but I'll see how things progress. For me, each new step of trust is a new level of love. I really do have to have some measure of trust and love working in tandem with one another. I can't fathom the idea of trust without love, or love without trust. I see them as one in the same.
But I'd still trust him for some things. though. I'd trust that, as an infant, he'd cry when he needed to be changed or fed, or that he would do all the things a baby would do. I'd trust that he'd come out crying in the womb when born.
I think perhaps "trust" might be something else for me, though. I see different levels of trust that suit the different levels of love. I don't love children the same way I love parents, and I wouldn't love my spouse the same way I loved my best friend. So I'd also have different levels of trust for them to fit the situation.
I can't say that's a normal way to see things, though. I can only say it's the way I view it.
I think you could feel love for someone without trusting them. It might be frustrating, but entirely possible. There may be something about them that you love, even if not the whole package.. and ultimately, feel love for them, while recognizing the lack of trust means you won't act on it and come to accept the reality of who they are, what you want, and how you feel.
I think it would be unwise to act towards a loving relationship with someone you don't trust. Trust is vital in any healthy relationship.
I think it would be unwise to act towards a loving relationship with someone you don't trust. Trust is vital in any healthy relationship.
For me, I see a distinct separation between wanting good things for someone, and wanting a personal relationship with someone.
I want a personal relationship with very few people. Just because I'm not interested in talking to someone (because they're boring, or untrustworthy, or whatever) it doesn't mean that I don't want good things for them, and wouldn't help them if they needed it.
I want a personal relationship with very few people. Just because I'm not interested in talking to someone (because they're boring, or untrustworthy, or whatever) it doesn't mean that I don't want good things for them, and wouldn't help them if they needed it.
A very painful topic for me right now...
I have a friend, INFJ by the way, who is very dear to me, and she claims in order to love somebody you shouldn't ever trust them. She says trust equals some kind of blindness within which you couldn't pursue the level of deep understanding required for true love. Moreover, according to her trust is almost "evil", you would trust only someone that you hate. (I know, crazy
) ... Because, apparently, trusting someone means putting unbearable burden on their shoulders - expectations that they will invariably violate. Almost as if you put them to test that will get them to inevitable failure. At this point I try to explain that when you love you also can forgive - and if your trust is violated you won't immediately swing to frustration, you can still keep your love AND trust. But she says that's not true. She really believes the only way to love people is to never trust them and accept to view them as unreliable by default. (in order to not get angry with their mistakes) ....
I don't know, to me that's immature. That kind of view demonstrates some very strong fear of dishonesty. I pity her. I wonder sometimes is it because she herself can be manipulative that she completely lacks any desire to trust? I know I'm not to be trusted on many occasions, for example, but it's never deliberate - if I try to organize and plan a scam it rarely ever works, I can't pretend when I know what I'm doing. And so I also trust other people. Somehow I project myself on them, and I expect them to be as myself. I assume my friend is doing the same thing, and I pity her even more, because I think both type of actions (deliberate manipulation and distrust) are only hurting her. I know she loves people sincerely, but the issues of trust... I think form some weakness of her.
My opinion is that love and trust could be independent. I would never agree with the radical claim that love exists only with distrust, and trust means lack of love. On the contrary - even if that's not a rule, I think in most cases love and trust go together. Only in general, logically speaking, they are just not related.
I have trusted the most when I've loved the most. I'm able to give my life in somebody's hands (and that's not exaggeration) to do with it whatever they decide; sometimes I've given everything I own in the hands of another, without any contracts or such things - I hate documents. I've also felt the same kind of trust offered to me, as a sign of love, and it increased my love.
The topic is painful, because for ENFP it's of vital importance to be trusted. If I'm not trusted, I already feel guilty (note, that doesn't mean there's actual reason) - because the feeling of the other human is so strongly reflected in me; I start questioning myself, doubting myself all the time. That's worse to me than any real punishment.
In my family there was love and trust, and I'm used to that. I can't survive very long in extremely distrustful environments.
Note: To me trust does not mean that you believe everything someone says (that would harm your own rationality), but that you believe in their good intentions. Sometimes they could even lie to you - then if you trust them, you assume they did it in a moment of weakness. And you try to help them. Also, if I know someone is lying to me, I would usually tell them directly that I know. I wouldn't play mind games and "test" the depths of their dishonesty. I see this as unnecessary cruelty that hurts both sides in the end. It's usually obvious that someone has problems, if they go to the extent to lie on purpose. It has happened to me too, and normally that means I'm in some serious trouble or distress.
I have a friend, INFJ by the way, who is very dear to me, and she claims in order to love somebody you shouldn't ever trust them. She says trust equals some kind of blindness within which you couldn't pursue the level of deep understanding required for true love. Moreover, according to her trust is almost "evil", you would trust only someone that you hate. (I know, crazy
) ... Because, apparently, trusting someone means putting unbearable burden on their shoulders - expectations that they will invariably violate. Almost as if you put them to test that will get them to inevitable failure. At this point I try to explain that when you love you also can forgive - and if your trust is violated you won't immediately swing to frustration, you can still keep your love AND trust. But she says that's not true. She really believes the only way to love people is to never trust them and accept to view them as unreliable by default. (in order to not get angry with their mistakes) ....I don't know, to me that's immature. That kind of view demonstrates some very strong fear of dishonesty. I pity her. I wonder sometimes is it because she herself can be manipulative that she completely lacks any desire to trust? I know I'm not to be trusted on many occasions, for example, but it's never deliberate - if I try to organize and plan a scam it rarely ever works, I can't pretend when I know what I'm doing. And so I also trust other people. Somehow I project myself on them, and I expect them to be as myself. I assume my friend is doing the same thing, and I pity her even more, because I think both type of actions (deliberate manipulation and distrust) are only hurting her. I know she loves people sincerely, but the issues of trust... I think form some weakness of her.
My opinion is that love and trust could be independent. I would never agree with the radical claim that love exists only with distrust, and trust means lack of love. On the contrary - even if that's not a rule, I think in most cases love and trust go together. Only in general, logically speaking, they are just not related.
I have trusted the most when I've loved the most. I'm able to give my life in somebody's hands (and that's not exaggeration) to do with it whatever they decide; sometimes I've given everything I own in the hands of another, without any contracts or such things - I hate documents. I've also felt the same kind of trust offered to me, as a sign of love, and it increased my love.
The topic is painful, because for ENFP it's of vital importance to be trusted. If I'm not trusted, I already feel guilty (note, that doesn't mean there's actual reason) - because the feeling of the other human is so strongly reflected in me; I start questioning myself, doubting myself all the time. That's worse to me than any real punishment.
In my family there was love and trust, and I'm used to that. I can't survive very long in extremely distrustful environments.
Note: To me trust does not mean that you believe everything someone says (that would harm your own rationality), but that you believe in their good intentions. Sometimes they could even lie to you - then if you trust them, you assume they did it in a moment of weakness. And you try to help them. Also, if I know someone is lying to me, I would usually tell them directly that I know. I wouldn't play mind games and "test" the depths of their dishonesty. I see this as unnecessary cruelty that hurts both sides in the end. It's usually obvious that someone has problems, if they go to the extent to lie on purpose. It has happened to me too, and normally that means I'm in some serious trouble or distress.
I can love someone without trusting them, but I'm not sure I could be content in a relationship with them until that was fixed.
You can love someone, I've done it. But the relationship gradually crumbles away if the trust issues aren't resolved. It eats away, creates a million arguments and erodes the love until it is no longer significant enough to hold together a relationship.
Unfortunate and sad as it is, and ive had lots to say about this lately...but yes...You distrust them with every fiber of your being. You can rid yourself of them, remove them from your life. But you will never remove them from your heart. It may heal in time, but you can and will love some one despite the fact they are completely untrustworthy.
You can love someone you don't trust in that you can have a sincere concern for their well-being.
I don't think it is possible to have a healthy, interactive relationship with someone you do not trust. Relationship implies a give and take. The only kind of love you can have towards someone you don't trust is one-dimensional. You can act and choose for their well-being, but cannot rely on them to reciprocate.
To use an analogy, it is possible to deeply love a threatening, even vicious animal that is known to have the capacity to kill you given the opportunity. In caring for this animal boundaries must be solidly in place that do not allow them to have free access to you. You can still figure out what their needs are to grow and be happiest and healthiest and work towards those ends. You can understand more each day how they see the world and why they see you as a threat or prey. It is not possible to have a relationship with such a creature in the same way you can with a trusted animal who can reciprocate that love, but you can love that creature with your whole self.
If you overlay that view on my description of the aggressive animal, it might be enlightening. If I were keeping and trying to protect and nurture crocodiles out of sincere love for the animal, it would not be fair to the animal to place myself in a situation that encourages them to act in a natural way leading to my harm. It would villify the creature unnecessarily and demonstrate my lack of understanding and respect for their unique way of interacting with the world.
For intimate relationships trust is necessary in order to function. Forgiveness is also necessary in order to have an interactive love. In general though, withholding trust can be equivalent to withholding judgment. It doesn't have to imply a definitive conclusion. It can be a way to stay open to more fully understand who the object of our love and concern is. Loving someone means loving exactly who they are with their flaws.
I find myself not wanting my love to trust me too fully or quickly. I know I can earn trust. If someone trusts me blindly it is sweet, but it also means they will trust another blindly. This means they will be hurt more often in the world. I want them to be wary and safe, so I don't take it personally if they are wary towards me before I have had the opportunity to earn and prove the trust.
I don't think it is possible to have a healthy, interactive relationship with someone you do not trust. Relationship implies a give and take. The only kind of love you can have towards someone you don't trust is one-dimensional. You can act and choose for their well-being, but cannot rely on them to reciprocate.
To use an analogy, it is possible to deeply love a threatening, even vicious animal that is known to have the capacity to kill you given the opportunity. In caring for this animal boundaries must be solidly in place that do not allow them to have free access to you. You can still figure out what their needs are to grow and be happiest and healthiest and work towards those ends. You can understand more each day how they see the world and why they see you as a threat or prey. It is not possible to have a relationship with such a creature in the same way you can with a trusted animal who can reciprocate that love, but you can love that creature with your whole self.
Calling a deeply felt view of the world most likely based on painful experiences immature might not be entirely fair. I don't know your friend, but the word "immature" implies dismissal. I'm guessing that her view of the world made her safer in some of her formative situations. It might be that it is not necessary in every context, but if it has worked successfully for her in the past, it may be a hard-won strategy. If it is flawed or doesn't apply in another context, that is quite different from being "immature" which means a lack of experience or examination.
If you overlay that view on my description of the aggressive animal, it might be enlightening. If I were keeping and trying to protect and nurture crocodiles out of sincere love for the animal, it would not be fair to the animal to place myself in a situation that encourages them to act in a natural way leading to my harm. It would villify the creature unnecessarily and demonstrate my lack of understanding and respect for their unique way of interacting with the world.
For intimate relationships trust is necessary in order to function. Forgiveness is also necessary in order to have an interactive love. In general though, withholding trust can be equivalent to withholding judgment. It doesn't have to imply a definitive conclusion. It can be a way to stay open to more fully understand who the object of our love and concern is. Loving someone means loving exactly who they are with their flaws.
I find myself not wanting my love to trust me too fully or quickly. I know I can earn trust. If someone trusts me blindly it is sweet, but it also means they will trust another blindly. This means they will be hurt more often in the world. I want them to be wary and safe, so I don't take it personally if they are wary towards me before I have had the opportunity to earn and prove the trust.
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You don't need to trust someone in order to love them. I've seen many parents love their children without necessarily trusting them. Of course, the love is much more productive when there is trust, but that does not mean that trust is absolutely necessary in a relationship in order for there to be love.
Likewise, you can trust somebody without loving the. There are some people who are just really trustworthy and honest. They aren't many but they do exist. If I know someone like that who I can trust, it doesn't necessarily mean that I love the person.
What kind of trust do You expect in an intimate relationship?
I can imagine loving someone without trusting them at all, but it seems unlikely that I would.
I'm wondering what kind of trust other INFJ's expect or need to love someone (for those of you who need any trust at all)? I figure most people want to trust their partner not to cheat and not to chronically, blantantly lie. What about deeper issues, like whether your partner is self-aware and in touch with her/his feelings?
I'm struggling with trusting a partner who is very honest to the extent he is aware of his feelings, but he isn't very deeply aware of his feelings. Since I think we INFJ's tend to be self-aware, I'm wondering if others had this difficulty come up too?
I can imagine loving someone without trusting them at all, but it seems unlikely that I would.
I'm wondering what kind of trust other INFJ's expect or need to love someone (for those of you who need any trust at all)? I figure most people want to trust their partner not to cheat and not to chronically, blantantly lie. What about deeper issues, like whether your partner is self-aware and in touch with her/his feelings?
I'm struggling with trusting a partner who is very honest to the extent he is aware of his feelings, but he isn't very deeply aware of his feelings. Since I think we INFJ's tend to be self-aware, I'm wondering if others had this difficulty come up too?
I'm a little confused as to the meaning of "can you love someone." I don't know if that means "can you be in love with someone" or can you "love someone." Those are two completely different things for me. I love nearly everyone, but trust hardly anyone. It's possible for a relationship to exist when one person doesn't trust the other, but the trust has to either be won, or the relationship will not last.
I'm also too tired to read what everyone else has said, so someone probably already said that. *shrug* Whatever.
I'm also too tired to read what everyone else has said, so someone probably already said that. *shrug* Whatever.
A very painful topic for me right now...
I have a friend, INFJ by the way, who is very dear to me, and she claims in order to love somebody you shouldn't ever trust them. She says trust equals some kind of blindness within which you couldn't pursue the level of deep understanding required for true love. Moreover, according to her trust is almost "evil", you would trust only someone that you hate. (I know, crazy
I don't know, to me that's immature. That kind of view demonstrates some very strong fear of dishonesty. I pity her. I wonder sometimes is it because she herself can be manipulative that she completely lacks any desire to trust? I know I'm not to be trusted on many occasions, for example, but it's never deliberate - if I try to organize and plan a scam it rarely ever works, I can't pretend when I know what I'm doing. And so I also trust other people. Somehow I project myself on them, and I expect them to be as myself. I assume my friend is doing the same thing, and I pity her even more, because I think both type of actions (deliberate manipulation and distrust) are only hurting her. I know she loves people sincerely, but the issues of trust... I think form some weakness of her.
My opinion is that love and trust could be independent. I would never agree with the radical claim that love exists only with distrust, and trust means lack of love. On the contrary - even if that's not a rule, I think in most cases love and trust go together. Only in general, logically speaking, they are just not related.
I have trusted the most when I've loved the most. I'm able to give my life in somebody's hands (and that's not exaggeration) to do with it whatever they decide; sometimes I've given everything I own in the hands of another, without any contracts or such things - I hate documents. I've also felt the same kind of trust offered to me, as a sign of love, and it increased my love.
The topic is painful, because for ENFP it's of vital importance to be trusted. If I'm not trusted, I already feel guilty (note, that doesn't mean there's actual reason) - because the feeling of the other human is so strongly reflected in me; I start questioning myself, doubting myself all the time. That's worse to me than any real punishment.
In my family there was love and trust, and I'm used to that. I can't survive very long in extremely distrustful environments.
Note: To me trust does not mean that you believe everything someone says (that would harm your own rationality), but that you believe in their good intentions. Sometimes they could even lie to you - then if you trust them, you assume they did it in a moment of weakness. And you try to help them. Also, if I know someone is lying to me, I would usually tell them directly that I know. I wouldn't play mind games and "test" the depths of their dishonesty. I see this as unnecessary cruelty that hurts both sides in the end. It's usually obvious that someone has problems, if they go to the extent to lie on purpose. It has happened to me too, and normally that means I'm in some serious trouble or distress.
if she is an INFJ, then it's likely that she actually fears the disappointment of having the trust broken. In that moment of discovering that trust has been broken, the pain and hurt is pretty unbareable. I think this is why she "blocks" it rather than "sabotages" it.
It is to protect herself. If you don't understand this, that's ok, I'm just thinking as an INFJ, and I too can see myself in her. Also, like myself, it's possible she has experienced this lots of times, so she just has made this pact with herself to not ever be in that position again, as her empathy helped her also see how her expectations of others caused her her own pain... I again can relate. So, it's not being imature or inadvertantly being manipulative, more like setting a block or a boundary of a guard of some sort, to avoid the inevitable.
It is not disappointing when enimies break your trust, it is also not something that will bring with it, the anticipation of knowing you'll (she'll) get hurt by someone she thinks well of, or wants to think well of. I bet she would love to be able to trust, but she knows how she feels and that emotionally, she's just not safe to do so.
I don't believe I can love someone if I don't trust them.
I believe I can want to believe that I can trust someone... I can feel a guarded love for someone whom I don't trust because I've had reason to know that I can't. However, I know that if I knew I could trust someone guaranteed, and that I could be safe in all ways with them... then I would have reached one of my own personal definitions of the word "Nirvana".
I believe I can want to believe that I can trust someone... I can feel a guarded love for someone whom I don't trust because I've had reason to know that I can't. However, I know that if I knew I could trust someone guaranteed, and that I could be safe in all ways with them... then I would have reached one of my own personal definitions of the word "Nirvana".
I'm actually surprised that this thread has this much length. For me it is a simple NO! How can you have one with out the other? How can anyone think that you can? Especially for INFJ's the answer, if you are truthful, is always no. I think other types define "trust" differently than us. Therefore, you are into a whole other layer of definition. Each type of person has their own definition of "trust". I think everyone wants trust in love. It just depends on what your your definition of trust is. I know what mine is. It doesn't even need to be spoken to one who understands.
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Yea, I guess I was doing the long winded thing of explaining why the INFJ didn't want to trust, and then the next post was about how I want to trust, but I know that my answer is pretty cut and dry like yours.
No, I couldn't love someone if I couldn't trust them. (at least not in the way that I'd want to love them) .