The Psychic and the Catalyst

[dylan]

INFPs focus their abilities inward, and unlock an infinite depth of feeling.

Weird. If I remember correctly, my J score was pretty high, and yet I know exactly what that is. As if your bellybutton was a peephole, and on the other side was the whole universe.

Either way, INFJs and INFPs are bound to feel a lot of misery as these abilities are not without consequence. [...] these abilities often drain the energy of both types, and can lead to paranoia or depression.

That's why I had to take a break from New York City. Just the sheer volume of psychic/emotional energy was beating me down.

Yes, the hardest part for me is accepting that not everyone can see multiple sides to every issue, that they can't feel the value that each side has, that they can't predict the outcome of a particular set of choices based on those differing points of view, and especially that they won't even bother to consider the merit of other points of view.

Ca-ching! Couldn't agree more. At one point my "inner circle" friends came to realize that I might actually have a good grasp of almost any situation, and they nicknamed me "the voice of reason." Hehehe...

You can't control what other people think, but you can control your own thoughts. And as long as you can accept yourself as worthy, it is no longer your problem whether or not other people do so.

Heh, I try and live by that, but it gets kind of skewed into: I know I am my own harshest critic and have unrealistically high standards for myself. So even when I feel like I am failing miserably, when external evidence and feedback say I'm doing just fine, I kind of trust in that. Tentatively.

But about feeling paranoid, feeling like people around you are feeling negatively towards you... I've come to question the exact nature of that feeling. I was with a group of people, and one of the guys was very angry, but wasn't really expressing it, I just knew he was. And it was a group activity, so I thought he was angry at me and how I was contributing. But then later, it became apparent that he was really angry at himself. So I figured I had felt the anger, but turned it towards myself. Which got me thinking that a lot of those feelings that I internalized maybe weren't even really mine at all. Like... well, lets use a party as an example. Say you're at a party, and you're feeling overwhelmed with insecurity and that you don't exactly belong, and you turn into a silent wallflower (I'm assuming you all relate to this?). Certainly there are other people there feeling insecure. Even extroverted people who can realistically bluff that they are having a great time may be feeling very insecure. So is it possible that we are picking up all their insecurity, and without thinking, internalizing it? So we're feeling like 5 times the insecurity that someone else might?

And then, to top it all off, think of how it could be a bootstrapping, self-fulfilling kind of thing. Imagine what you look like there (I am imagining what I looked like there, I have been this wallflower, believe you me), not interacting with anyone, grim look on your face. You make eye contact with someone, who themselves may be feeling insecure. I imagine that to them, you look like you are judging them. You certainly aren't showing any signs of friendliness. And then they feel more insecure, because of you. And then you feel their insecurity, but turn it towards yourself. Just feeding a cycle.

And I think, at least for me, it's easier to accept and magnify self-critical or negative feelings than positive feelings, because I'm already so inclined towards self-criticism that those kinds of feelings just seem more realistic.

 

[Lurker]

So what am I thinking right now?

My guess was going to be "look at those bubbles...." I woulda been close

 

[Satya]

Weird. If I remember correctly, my J score was pretty high, and yet I know exactly what that is. As if your bellybutton was a peephole, and on the other side was the whole universe.

It has a lot more to do with whether you score high on Fe or Fi.

 

[Thoth]

I scored pretty high on "Fum". But that measures something else I think.

I'm re-reading this thread and looking at it from the "What if I'm not an INFJ" position. I took one of the tests again and it came up INFJ, but J only got 1% over P. So I seem to be on the fence with this one.

 

[dylan]

It has a lot more to do with whether you score high on Fe or Fi.

I'm guessing that's extroverted Feeling vs. introverted Feeling? How does one tell one's score on that?

 

[Satya]

I'm guessing that's extroverted Feeling vs. introverted Feeling? How does one tell one's score on that?

http://forum.infjs.com/showthread.php?t=1100

 

[kafkapoe]

From other forums, I have come to the understanding that INFJs and INFPs have a unique ability that sets them apart from all the other types. They can feel via their intuition and feeling, what others are thinking. Both types also possess the abiity to see multiple sides to every issue and the ability to sense underlying patterns of behavior.

When these abilities are combined and focused outwardly, as they are in INFJs, the result is an ability to predict what an individual is thinking, and where those thoughts will probably lead them. To some people this appears to be a psychic ability to fortell the future.

INFPs focus their abilities inward, and unlock an infinite depth of feeling. To some people this appears to be an ability to act as the perfect catalyst to others; to transform other people's perceptoins, without ever changing themselves.

Either way, INFJs and INFPs are bound to feel a lot of misery as these abilities are not without consequence. First, it's obviously very difficult to explain to others how you can know what they are thinking, or how you know how those thoughts will affect their behavior in the future, when those ideas are arrived at almost entirely by intution and feeling. Second, these abilities often drain the energy of both types, and can lead to paranoia or depression. An inherent ability to know the unfiltered judgements of others towards yourself, to automatically know when people are bullshitting or lying, sensing when others are acting thoughtlessly for their own selfish purposes, knowing when people are trying to use you to satisfy their own ego, and feeling the apathy and lack of care people have toward things that are important, could drive just about anyone insane. For that reason, it's important to always remember the good of human beings, and to retreat when being bombarded with attempts to manipulate or decieve.

Does all that sound about right?

i agree with all of this. it is both a blessing and a curse being able to read people's intentions and thoughts so clearly. it is a curse when the person is clearly deceptive, manipulative, or just evil, because any pretense of a relationship can be instantly destroyed. sometimes i just get insanely intense negative vibes from people and once it is backed up by actions it is hard for me to ever salvage a normal interaction.

also the ability for extreme rationalization and seeing and understanding all sides leads to problems. i often long for ignorance or even self righteousness just to feel how the other side lives.

this reminds me of a conversation i had with a friend a while ago, way before i knew i was an infj. he asked me what my greatest talent was. my answer was giving insight into infinite situations. needless to say as a young teen everyone had a good laugh at that answer. or i remember hanging out at a friend's house as a kid and he had to go on a paper route and i was just sitting in his yard analyzing concepts of nature. his mom came out and asked me if i wanted to come in and watch television. i calmly explained that i was just trying to think about thoughts of existence. his mother forbade him to hang out with me or to allow me back over the house ever again. it is funny looking back over events like this with an infj diagnosis.

 

[dylan]

http://forum.infjs.com/showthread.php?t=1100

Ok, so according to that I scored higher on Fi than Fe, but it also typed me as INTP.

What does that mean?

[goes to read up on INTP...]

 

[Lurker]

Ok, so according to that I scored higher on Fi than Fe, but it also typed me as INTP.

What does that mean?

[goes to read up on INTP...]

It means internet tests can point you in a direction but cannot be relied upon. Also you may be cool

 

[Kitteh]

When these abilities are combined and focused outwardly, as they are in INFJs, the result is an ability to predict what an individual is thinking, and where those thoughts will probably lead them. To some people this appears to be a psychic ability to fortell the future.

Yes, just like that...

Before I knew about MBTI i thought everyone did this. I got so mad several times when people didn't understand things that was clear to me.

On the contrary, I used to think there was something wrong with me. And it kept freaking me out that I could feel so sure seemingly without any reason at all, or at least without anything tangible to base conclusions on, no reasoning, just this knowing.

I've gotten quite comfortable with it now though, even though it freaks others out occasionally. Although I suspect that it mostly just makes them feel predictable, which I wouldn't like, either :whistle:

 

[Shaz]

Yes, the hardest part for me is accepting that not everyone can see multiple sides to every issue, that they can't feel the value that each side has, that they can't predict the outcome of a particular set of choices based on those differing points of view, and especially that they won't even bother to consider the merit of other points of view. I often find myself playing devil's advocate and arguing views far from my own, simply because I want my like minded friends to appreciate the complexity of the opposing point of view's thoughts and feelings. This often shocks my friends since I can present the argument as if it is my own, and as if it is supported by my own feelings. I've even argued in support of things like genocide, something I gravely detest, simply because I want my friends to comprehend the reasoning and justifications of those who carry it out.

This is one of the biggest sources of frustration in my life, not only on an everyday basis but also (and mainly) when I start thinking about the endless consequences people's impossibility of getting in other people's shoes have on society. Humans are so limited and presumptuous... Aaah well. I suppose I am one of them.

 

[arbygil]

This is some good, deep stuff. And I totally 100% agree - especially where it pertains to ENFP. I've actually felt "insulted" when I've had an ENFP presume to intuit my motivations. They're usually dead on, yes, but they're totally off on the why. Yes, end result is the same. But they're totally off on the reason why I asked.

I think my second cousin (by marriage) is an ENFP. I nearly had an public family argument with her online because I knew what she was thinking (but not how) and she knew what *I* was thinking (but not why) and we were miscommunicating like Whoa. This little ENFP quirk drives me nuts. My father did it, the other ENFP males I know do it, and the ENFP girls do it. And my best friend who is an ENFP sometimes does it.

But I have a strong relationship with my best friend so I'm more comfortable when she's "off."

I do love ENFPs, but I don't like getting "stung" by them.

I think what's even more difficult is when the intuition is off just *slightly* and the communication lines go haywire. The assumptions can be just as deadly. I've learned to curb my assumptions until I know more about the situation, but it's not easy.

 

[SpoofyMcPoof]

After some deliberation, I've decided to take that as a compliment (though I'm reasonably sure it isn't).

I caught the reference right away :mno: So I'm a big star trek geek too...but I'm proud of it!

Anyone else figure out how the entire movie or book is going to go when you've only gotten about a quarter of the way through it? I find this somewhat annoying but sometimes I still enjoy it.

I think the ability bothers me most when I know exactly how things are going to go, and I know they're going to go badly, but I keep going because I have to or because I know things will be nice before they get bad...

 

[Introspiritual]

Second, these abilities often drain the energy of both types, and can lead to paranoia or depression. An inherent ability to know the unfiltered judgements of others towards yourself, to automatically know when people are bullshitting or lying, sensing when others are acting thoughtlessly for their own selfish purposes, knowing when people are trying to use you to satisfy their own ego, and feeling the apathy and lack of care people have toward things that are important, could drive just about anyone insane.

Does all that sound about right?

So right that a lurker would register just to say "it's all right, and I empathize especially with the quoted bit above."

And also spot on about the ENFPs and motives versus reasons. I have run into this many times, and it's floored me on occasion.

 

[Satya]

So right that a lurker would register just to say "it's all right, and I empathize especially with the quoted bit above."

And also spot on about the ENFPs and motives versus reasons. I have run into this many times, and it's floored me on occasion.

Welcome. I hope you stick around.

 

[Duty]

From other forums, I have come to the understanding that INFJs and INFPs have a unique ability that sets them apart from all the other types. They can feel via their intuition and feeling, what others are thinking. Both types also possess the abiity to see multiple sides to every issue and the ability to sense underlying patterns of behavior.

When these abilities are combined and focused outwardly, as they are in INFJs, the result is an ability to predict what an individual is thinking, and where those thoughts will probably lead them. To some people this appears to be a psychic ability to fortell the future.

INFPs focus their abilities inward, and unlock an infinite depth of feeling. To some people this appears to be an ability to act as the perfect catalyst to others; to transform other people's perceptoins, without ever changing themselves.

Either way, INFJs and INFPs are bound to feel a lot of misery as these abilities are not without consequence. First, it's obviously very difficult to explain to others how you can know what they are thinking, or how you know how those thoughts will affect their behavior in the future, when those ideas are arrived at almost entirely by intution and feeling. Second, these abilities often drain the energy of both types, and can lead to paranoia or depression. An inherent ability to know the unfiltered judgements of others towards yourself, to automatically know when people are bullshitting or lying, sensing when others are acting thoughtlessly for their own selfish purposes, knowing when people are trying to use you to satisfy their own ego, and feeling the apathy and lack of care people have toward things that are important, could drive just about anyone insane. For that reason, it's important to always remember the good of human beings, and to retreat when being bombarded with attempts to manipulate or decieve.

Does all that sound about right?

Ok, this is good stuff, I like it. My comments I have to say are more with what I have experienced with INFJs, as I haven't ever gotten to know an INFP really well.

When an INFJ tells me they know what I'm thinking, I both at the same time understand this partially, but have to critique this a little bit. Let me explain...

I have to say I understand Ni. I've learned to trust it once in a while myself. I appreciate the advantages it brings and am typically attracted to be around people that have this function in abundance, along with Ti and to a lesser extent, Fe and Ne. It's a function that my type doesn't usually have a bunch of (Ni I mean), but I understand it and appreciate it.

But, I think what drains INFJs so much is people that criticize by saying, "You don't know that, you just got lucky," or something like that...as well as the INFX's hyper-realization and sensitivity to the awful things in the world. The first part of that I have to say people are partially right. Although you didn't just guess, and typically are right due to a set of intuitions about the situation that lead to a gut feeling (I'd say you're just more in tune with the subtle expressions and facial features of people on a subconcious level, and things of the like), to "know" something suggests something a bit stronger then having a good feeling something will happen. Thinkers will be inclined to agree with me on the basis that knowledge is more "provable," "reliable," and "communicable," then gut feelings. Sensors typically will simply just not understand it as they have a difficult time understanding intuition anyways (which is why they're sensors...).

The main point I'm making is that "knowing" something seems to be something else from what INTJs do. They have an exceptionally developed gut reaction, and an exceptionally developed way of understanding people, but most types would be hard pressed to say they KNOW what's going to happen. This causes a lot of stress to an INFJ imho, as they feel they're crazy, or alone or misunderstood. I just say you're all unique!

I'm resisting the urge to dive strait into epistemology here with definitions of knowledge! I'm also trying to exercise that Fe we INTPs hate and not make it so you think I'm saying your intuitions are invalid. They're not invalid and have proven mostly trustworthy to you...they're just not as easily understandable to many types and just not as readily accepted by modern society as being a proper way to form our rules, actions and whatnot.

And the realization/sensitivity to the awfulness of the world is exceptionally draining. We INTPs suffer from it horribly even though we don't show it.

 

[Shaz]

I think Ni has to do with forces science has not explained yet. It should come one day, at least partially. Energies we cannot yet measure and comprehend.

 

[MyPetZombie]

My secret ability is that I always find things out. I'm not that great about predicting, but if I can remain detached enough to the outcome, I'm generally dead on. My best friend has determined that she will never question my gut, no matter how outlandish it may be. As for other people, I delight in being proven wrong, but I very seldom am.

 

[Solongo]

From other forums, I have come to the understanding that INFJs and INFPs have a unique ability that sets them apart from all the other types. They can feel via their intuition and feeling, what others are thinking. Both types also possess the abiity to see multiple sides to every issue and the ability to sense underlying patterns of behavior.

I completely agree. I have just started using my intuition more as I used to rely on outside information at face value. But somehow my feelings and the information I perceived from the outside never matched and of course this always unsettled me. But just recently I have started to use my intuition as an antenna and I was quite shocked at what I found in people I thought I knew. Coupled with a little bit of body language knowledge, INFJ i think are great readers of other people's true nature or at least what the people are really like on the inside.

I look at it as a way to read between the lines of people's outside facade and their true nature. I can walk into a room and automatically sense the dominant energy in the room and when the energy is negative I get sick and my rational mind starts to fight against it thinking the negative energy is my own energy. But yes, learning to harness the intuition and feeling in a balanced way is a challenge. I am also a libra so yes I do fight for the multitude of views for the sake of it.

 

[acd]

So, where did this come from? Is it your theory? I've never heard of this.. but oddly enough.. I do feel like a catalyst in most situations. Very interesting...