Not allowed to build minarets anymore

Nope. That's where you're wrong. I have worn a head cover for quite a bit and have experienced both sides of what we are discussing here. I KNOW which side is the Islamic side and I KNOW which side isn't. Unless you have ever worn a headcover, you probably shouldn't assume you know what its about.

 

Agreed.

 

Who said anything about pushing Islam on other people? Are you saying that because a Muslim woman insists on wearing a headcover, she is pushing her beliefs on her fellow Europeans?

 

You wore a head cover, good for you. Not wearing a head cover means I couldn't understand that its still a misogynist tradition? So Muslim men must be blind to that too since they aren't the ones made to wear the head covers.

The burka was invented to hide woman's sexuality from men, because you know, men don't need women baring their wares all over the place in society. Essentially it was invented 1st to repress sexuality, cant have a bunch of horny Muslims running around not loving god, and loving sex more.

And how do we control sexuality? by controlling women and their bodies.

That this is now seen as some cultural crapola and a symbol for muslims to repress their women as womens rights is laughable at best.

 

No I am saying its a small small piece of that same pie, the larger piece would be Muslim violence against non Muslims which is pretty pervasive in Islam and everywhere it goes.

 

So how is it misogynist again? Your argument holds no weight to this discussion. You haven't discussed the misogyny here.

I'm not going to keep debating here back and forth with you about this because I know the difference between culture and religion, as I have experienced both in my life and also because I know the difference between liberty and oppression, both of which I have experienced in my life as well. But if you want some enlightenment, I suggest you read the Quran first. If you want a shortcut, google Aminah Assilmi. She's much more knowledgeable than I am and breaks it down for you in a way that you would understand because she was not a Muslim her whole life, so she'll give you the best of both worlds if you're interested. Then you can ponder over the so called "misogyny" that a piece of cloth holds in Islam. If you're not willing to go and find out more about the topic, I'm not going to debate with you in such a senseless manner. Happy reading. Enjoy your day.

 

To stay politically correct, let me see the other side.

If merry Swiss people come around my town, building very tall statues of the violet Milka cow that obscure the view of the surrounding mountains, singing cheerful yodelers with megaphones from above, daily, I can't promise to remain very patient.

Come on, seriously:

At least, as we can see, the cow doesn't give a shit.

 

LOL

 

lolllllll

 

Its misogynist because it comes from a misogynist culture where it was used as a tool of repression. That some crazy people are clinging onto it now as a form of womens rights when it should be a discussion about religious rights is asinine. Its history is still its history. Even in the Q'ran its about keeping women "modest" aka concealing their sexuality from men not related to them. That's basically another way of saying "cover your tits up your pissing the men off you dirty slut!"

 

That's where you're wrong. Again. Islam does not view women as "dirty sluts," quite the contrary. Go read the Quran before you say something as horrifically absurd as that.

 

No, it just sees them as property.

 

Wrong again. You clearly do not know what Islam is about. Get back to me after you've read the Quran.

 

I think Fly_Away the problem is not with the Islamic religion but rather the Arabic portrayal of Islam as you have said there is a distinction between the culture and the religion but the converse isn't true for the Arabic culture, as a majority of those whom are Arabic are Islamic and their culture is projected upon the religion.

For worse this is the root of most problems and fears and they have been reaffirmed with actions that have happened. Only takes one person to make it so that we can't have any nice things.

EDIT:
Even in this scope the general idea is that the extremists and the negatives are being examined under a microscope needless to say this paints a terrible portrait and due to modern news' death and suffering sells it is amplified greatly.

 

"Democracy has been defined as two wolves and a sheep discussing plans for lunch."

 

What its about on paper and what is about in practice aren't always the same thing. I read the news, and what I see is that wherever Islam goes that is not an islamic place it slowly becomes islamic, at 1st from breeding and immigration and then through the end of a sword when they have the numbers.

Europeans have been beating back Islam since the crusades, which contrary to popular belief wasnt about Christian cruelty to Muslims, it was about stopping the tides of Islam from taking control. It stalled out Thank GOD in Spain and the Balkans.

The Idiot Europeans are finnally succumbing to the tide, not by a sword though as it was with the Turks and the days of El Cid, this time its rotting away from the inside and its opening all its doors to the muslim conquerors. I give them another 50-100 years before there are muslim civil wars in the streets like they had in India and the Balkans.

 

If Muslims are troubling to be around, not because of their humanity, but because of customs/laws/traditions, it might be a good time to reconsider some of these. Are the customs based on, and work better, a less mobile population? Is it truly perceived as a barrier by others? Does this actually diminish one's ability to fulfill the greater commandments in an more pluralistic society? What is the core value behind the custom, how did it originate? Can this be retained (and even strengthened) by identifying it and developing new customs that go (perhaps even moreso) to the heart of the matter and can survive in a diverse population? Is repression/seperateness really a valid part of our faith? If so, to what level. If not, does the symbol communicate something inauthentic or even slightly inaccurate?

I say this because many religions have had to adapt over the centuries, and it is a great strength that they are able to do so across many cultures. The core values are extracted from traditions and re-examined, and then perhaps updated, or maybe saved for in-group ceremonies that allow personal connection without causing confusion in the general population.

In some ways this religion may be going through these kinds of growing pains due to it's heightened interaction with the modern world. I would not want to deny them their faith, but perhaps the externals could be reexamined in an effort to protect the core beliefs and thus perpetuate their faith. Do Muslins want to be seen as legalistic and narrow? Probably not, many of them probably see these traditions as a means of connection and enlightenment (although some may not). Why allow things to polarize when both options can coexist within a valid religious tradition?

Trust me, I am not picking on this particular religious group....my comment is merely a reflection on phenomena that other faith groups have undergone. I have seen it. This is meant to expand the influence of core beliefs, not diminish them, but of course some will not see it this way.

And maybe that is part of the problem...people being people. No one likes to have their God messed with, and if a threat is perceived, often the conservative backlash (I'm talking religion, not politics) is more scary than anything else. It is in my church, trust me.

Anyway, I wish these folks well...now and far into the future.
But I think religion has got to be a bit smarter nowadays, a bit more intelligent, and a bit more cosmopolitan. It can do so by sinking its roots deep into the heart of core traditions/beliefs and then bring this forward into the present, expanding the diversity of options for it's people who must live in a very cosmopolitan world.

Just a random thought...

 

great post! awesome points, really. i hope everyone else reads this.

 

@Billy: I'm not even Muslim, but, seriously, you don't know what you're talking about. First, do NOT assume that all muslims are extremists, or that the religion has a tendency for extremism. While they do have that problem, its not remotely the most severe case in history (reference the Crusades, Inquisition, and Godwin's Law it all the way). the extremists do not represent the religion in any way. the most likely reason why the muslims are "flooding" into Europe is to get away from the extremists (assuming, of course, they weren't born in Europe). And honestly, the argument of "you need to go back to your 'homeland' and leave us alone" sounds one hell of a lot like "gey people shouldn't come out of the closet, because homophobes are just going to hurt you." Its opression of the minority so that the majority are allowed to continue with their misconceptions and prejudices.
Also, the burka is not a symbol of sexism. Do you know why? Because men have to follow hidjab AS WELL. true, its not as strick, but its there. Muslim men have to keep everything from their waists to the botton of their knees completely covered. This is the way it is (as I remember it being descibed) because the basic assumption that MEN are DOGS. women wear the burkas so that men aren't always oggling them. Men pray in front of women so that men aren't staring at the women's asses. The women aren't the ones being oppressed here.