My case that America is not the greatest country on earth...

[bamf]

BS, the American dream has ALWAYS been an individual dream per person. Pretending it isn't is asinine.

The way I see the American Dream in the context of this thread is much different than the personal dream. That in America everyone can achieve a better, richer, more fulfilling life experience. It blows reality out of proportion. Not everyone can be rich and successful, or else it wouldn't be considered rich and successful. The people who achieve the 'American Dream' thrive off of those who fail.

Yes everyone has a shot at it, but the odds are hardly even. We all start at different distances from the finish line.

 

[NeverAmI]

For some it was. Can you handle that? Or are you just going to judge people from 100s of years in the past without having any real understanding of the era they lived in? Can you look at things logically and clearly without using your emotional anger to taint your argument? trying to pigeonhole a concept into some straw man argument then proclaim its dead is stupid. The American dream has always been about the right to fulfill your destiny, wether that meant being a billionaire or being a simple home owner. It was the right of the individual to make that choice for themselves. The only thing killing the American dream, are liberal socialists who want to make it so you cant fail OR succeed. I say screw that, let people walk on thier own two feet, people who are disabled and injured should be aided, but setting up a system where there is no success or no failure for anyone, just kills me. What a ridiculous system, whats the point to living if you cant drive the sleigh of your accomplishments into a frenzy and establish a new standard for yourself?

I am one of the most conservative people you will ever meet. I want as little government in my life as possible.

The fact that we have WAY too much government is why I am upset with America.

America is just another country with good and bad. It doesn't have any bearing on my dreams one way or another.

 

[Billy]

What? Love and hate are completely subjective, therefore "greatest country" is nonsense.

There is no objectively greatest country.

I thought greatest meant richest and most powerful... that's pretty objective.

 

[NeverAmI]

The way I see the American Dream in the context of this thread is much different than the personal dream. That in America everyone can achieve a better, richer, more fulfilling life experience. It blows reality out of proportion. Not everyone can be rich and successful, or else it wouldn't be considered rich and successful. The people who achieve the 'American Dream' thrive off of those who fail.

Yes everyone has a shot at it, but the odds are hardly even. We all start at different distances from the finish line.

Well said.

 

[bamf]

For some it was. Can you handle that? Or are you just going to judge people from 100s of years in the past without having any real understanding of the era they lived in? Can you look at things logically and clearly without using your emotional anger to taint your argument? trying to pigeonhole a concept into some straw man argument then proclaim its dead is stupid. The American dream has always been about the right to fulfill your destiny, wether that meant being a billionaire or being a simple home owner. It was the right of the individual to make that choice for themselves. The only thing killing the American dream, are liberal socialists who want to make it so you cant fail OR succeed. I say screw that, let people walk on thier own two feet, people who are disabled and injured should be aided, but setting up a system where there is no success or no failure for anyone, just kills me. What a ridiculous system, whats the point to living if you cant drive the sleigh of your accomplishments into a frenzy and establish a new standard for yourself?

Your use of emotional anger and allegiance to party lines taints your argument.

 

[Quinlan]

I thought greatest meant richest and most powerful... that's pretty objective.

Well then you have a pretty narrow and shallow definition of greatness.

 

[Morgain]

Lets vote, wich place is the greatest country on earth?

I vote for Belgium!!
I couldn't think of a place that is greater then Belgium. Although we also have poverty and there are still people who are left behind, I think there is no place on earth where people get so many opportunities. For instance education is almost for free until your 18th. It is also obligate. Although there are little differences between the quality of the schools (especially if you compare city schools with country schools) but all of them have to live up to the national standard and all are sponsored by the government. For higher education, if you can't afford it it is possible to get a scholarship, and that doesn't depend on your grades but on the salary of your parents. When you loose your job, the government pays you your wage, it is not very much but most people can live on that, if they can not, they can go to the government for help. If you have a fixed contract in Belgium, your employer can't put you on the street right away, he has to keep you at least 3 months so you have time to find a new job. health care is almost for free in my country. Last year I had an operation on my finger. Not only didnt the help me the next day, I only had to pay 5 euros. It is true I have to pay an health insurance but still that is only 2 or 300 euros in a year. When we retire, we get a salary from the government. Although it is not so much, we don't have to live on the streets.

It is not that Belgium is flawless, like discrimination, a health care system that is way to expensive and is becoming untenable, our governement system is becoming bureaucratic (did you know we have six governements with 58 Government members for a country with 10 million people?) and the country is about to fall apart in two parts: Dutch speaking and French speaking nation.

But after all, I think this is the land of the dreams :becky:

but I'm sorry, we were talking about America, the land of the free

 

[Billy]

The way I see the American Dream in the context of this thread is much different than the personal dream. That in America everyone can achieve a better, richer, more fulfilling life experience. It blows reality out of proportion. Not everyone can be rich and successful, or else it wouldn't be considered rich and successful. The people who achieve the 'American Dream' thrive off of those who fail.

Yes everyone has a shot at it, but the odds are hardly even. We all start at different distances from the finish line.

No no no, you misunderstand, the middle class and the lower classes "thrive" off of the upper class who provide jobs, wealth, insurance, and commodities. I dont want to live in a place where they have been purged from the system, I don't want to live in the USSR and wait in lines equal in misery with everyone else for my bread and toilet paper rations.

Keep driving the entrepreneurs and rich out of the country, you aren't going to like what you find, when you are living a much lower standard of life.

 

[testing]

Anyway, where else would we move? We could decide to chuck it here in the U.S. and make a better life somewhere else. But where?

Canada? Nice, but tooo cooooold. Brrrrrrr. I'd love to visit, but I can only take so many cold days before I freeze up completely.

Mexico? Well, the quality of life there isn't any better, it's worse in fact, but at least the weather's wonderfully tropical. And I love the Gulf of Mexico, sooooooo pretty and excellent snorkeling.

Europe? I don't know... most Western European countries don't seem all that different, really, from the U.S., despite all our talk (bla bla bla) about Socialism (which we have in the U.S. already) vs. Free-Market Capitalism. I've been to Europe, and worked with my fair share of Europeans and Britons and, well, to me they just seem like more formal, less diverse Americans. Everything in Europe is nice, but smaller, and wonderfully historic compared to America. (I like that.) A nice little chateau in the south of France would suit me just fine. Or Ireland or England, but I do love a warm climate...

South America? Well, I hear Brazil's pretty nice. Don't know too much about the region, to be honest.

Australia? Again, despite all the protests to the contrary that I am sure would ensue, it really isn't that different from the U.S. Even has a history of being used as a penal colony by European colonists... like the U.S. Yeah, doable, but really what's the big difference? (Besides the hemisphere, of course.)

New Zealand I hear is wonderful. Dad went there and brought back a big book of naked women posing with sheep. Beautiful scenery. Could do New Zealand.

South Africa? Nope. We know Uganda's out, yucky. I've heard wonderful things about Botswana, however, should look into that more. (Botswana is my favorite African country.)

India? Well, that's doable, I like India and Indians and yum-o, Indian food. However, poverty there is pretty bad, but, I believe, improving. Perhaps they could offer a better quality of life for some disenchanted Americans.

Russia? (Nope, see "Canada: Cold", plus a high rate of alcoholism...)

Japan? Mmmm, sushi. Such a huge language barrier, though. Plus, I doubt they'd be very accepting of us, considering past history and all. And I hear it's really expensive there, too.

The Middle East? Forget it. I don't care to be killed or forced into subjugation due to the fact I am female. Cross out any region that does not allow me to work, get an education, earn money, and generally go about my daily business, due to my gender. That would suck.

So, where exactly should we all live if we get so sick of America we want to move? Has anyone really ever thought about this?

I'm actually only halfway joking... what country in the world truly offers the best quality of life for the most people?

 

[Billy]

Your use of emotional anger and allegiance to party lines taints your argument.

Which party is that?

 

[bamf]

No no no, you misunderstand, the middle class and the lower classes "thrive" off of the upper class who provide jobs, wealth, insurance, and commodities. I dont want to live in a place where they have been purged from the system, I don't want to live in the USSR and wait in lines equal in misery with everyone else for my bread and toilet paper rations.

Keep driving the entrepreneurs and rich out of the country, you aren't going to like what you find, when you are living a much lower standard of life.

Did I say any of that?

All I said is that the American Dream is disillusioned. The idea of 'Come to America, you can be rich and well to do' is complete BS. It simply cannot work that way. If someone is rich, someone has to be poor. When did I say that being rich is bad or that we should drive 'entrepreneurs' out of the country?

I disagree that the poor feed off the rich. There is only so much capital to go around. The rich are rich because other people don't have that capital. That's how the rich feed off the poor. Never did I say there is something right or wrong in that.

 

[Billy]

Well then you have a pretty narrow and shallow definition of greatness.

A definition nonetheless. What fluffy ever changing criteria do you use to pretend America sucks at?

 

[NeverAmI]

Here is our freedom hard at work:

[youtube]QSMyY3_dmrM[/youtube]

 

[Lucifer]

I am so so glad I am not the only one who thinks this.

I love America but only because its home. Its like the house I grew up in I am quite sentimental about it.

Were not the "greatest" unless you count our pwning the Olympics.

We totally pwn the olympics

 

[Billy]

Did I say any of that?

All I said is that the American Dream is disillusioned. The idea of 'Come to America, you can be rich and well to do' is complete BS. It simply cannot work that way. If someone is rich, someone has to be poor. When did I say that being rich is bad or that we should drive 'entrepreneurs' out of the country?

I disagree that the poor feed off the rich. There is only so much capital to go around. The rich are rich because other people don't have that capital. That's how the rich feed off the poor. Never did I say there is something right or wrong in that.

See that's where you are wrong, capital isn't limited, its created because its subjective. The American dream isnt disillusionment, if you come to America and try hard enough and do the right things you WILL succeed. Period. Its really just a matter of doing the right stuff.

Just because YOU and SOME people dont know how to become successful doesnt meant its not possible. It just means that its something some people dont know how to do or cant figure out. In which case the American dream can still work for them because in that case they probably arent ambitious anyway and they could get a nice job working for some EVIL rich guy for a salary instead, that can be thier american dream. Which as I have said is per individual. You keep trying to pretend that the American dream is just getting rich, for some people it is, for others its to live in a frickin commune in Idaho.

 

[NeverAmI]

See that's where you are wrong, capital isn't limited, its created because its subjective. The American dream isnt disillusionment, if you come to America and try hard enough and do the right things you WILL succeed. Period. Its really just a matter of doing the right stuff.

Just because YOU and SOME people dont know how to become successful doesnt meant its not possible. It just means that its something some people dont know how to do or cant figure out. In which case the American dream can still work for them because in that case they probably arent ambitious anyway and they could get a nice job working for some EVIL rich guy for a salary instead, that can be thier american dream. Which as I have said is per individual. You keep trying to pretend that the American dream is just getting rich, for some people it is, for others its to live in a frickin commune in Idaho.

I am assuming this is directed towards me as well.

How do you claim I am not successful??? Do you even know what I do?

 

[Billy]

Here is our freedom hard at work:

[youtube]QSMyY3_dmrM[/youtube]

lol liberals in a liberal city used a weapon to squash protest at the liberal summit? ha ha ha.

 

[Solongo]

America is what you make of it. If you can't handle the heat...then leave.

People there is no utopian society that will fulfill everything you desire without extreme effort, luck, etc...

America is for the white and rich.

 

[Pristinegirl]

Billy you have my full support, I would not want to live like that either!! "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel or envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery!!"

And I fully agree with all believers; if you don't like America, THEN LEAVE! Make space for those who do!! Because the American dream is very much alive if you believe it and if you don't then its your loss, your life destined to a non triumphant life.

Hence my favorite saying, "the grass is always greener on the other side."

Well its definetly wrongly used if you are implying that on me, because I'm on the other side and the grass is dried out and dead...

There is nothing wrong with America that cannot be cured by what is right with America.

 

[Billy]

I am assuming this is directed towards me as well.

How do you claim I am not successful??? Do you even know what I do?

No I dont, and frankly I dont care. But given your attitude towards everything we talked about in this thread I would assume you werent.