- Nov 12, 2008
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Naaah, quantum theory does make sense when you get into it. It's just very counter intuitive and "strange". It's also very very hard to grasp.
Guardian angels
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Naaah, quantum theory does make sense when you get into it. It's just very counter intuitive and "strange". It's also very very hard to grasp.
- Aug 9, 2009
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It seems to conflict with what I know about reality though, and that's the same issue I have with most matters of spirituality. To some, however, spiritual phenomena like guardian angels make perfect sense.
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It's kind of interesting. My father (ESTJ) disagrees with my spiritual views outright, and has told me since I was little that "once you learn more about science you will throw out all of those nonsense beliefs you hold". Learning quantum theory and some parts of inorganic chemistry has actually solidified the views I hold; it fit's together in my head. It's extremely hard for me to put to words though (partly because I would have to review quantum for an hour or two to explain it and I am nooooooot going to do that
).
It's kind of interesting. My father (ESTJ) disagrees with my spiritual views outright, and has told me since I was little that "once you learn more about science you will throw out all of those nonsense beliefs you hold". Learning quantum theory and some parts of inorganic chemistry has actually solidified the views I hold; it fit's together in my head. It's extremely hard for me to put to words though (partly because I would have to review quantum for an hour or two to explain it and I am nooooooot going to do that
I know what you mean.
I used to be an atheist through and through. Over the last few years i have been reading up on quantum theory and string theory. I am no longer an atheist.
The deeper into this stuff you get, the more you realise that common sense and traditional ideas of logic are completely flawed
No, I personally do not believe in guardian angels. I don't believe that human life is nearly that important in the grand scheme of things. I mean, our lives are important to us as individuals, but on a universal level we're nothing much at all. I think the idea of guardian angels stems from humanities self-imposed importance. We act as if humanity is the pinnacle of life-development, when in reality we're just another part of a cycle like a worm and a lion. If they don't have them, neither do we.
- Mar 17, 2010
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You're rather unobservant if you believe of the INFJ's here are "spiritual" yet Indy is not. You realise it's the other way around.
There seems to be about a 50/50 split. Type doesn't seem to be a factor regarding spiritualism on this site
I look forward to the day that mankind will have developed their consciousness to the point that we can see and hear even from the quantum level of existence. At that point, we won't even need to debate on whether angels exist. We'll either sense them or we won't. Till then, I think it best not to close our minds to the possibility that wiser, more powerful beings exist beyond the constraints of our physical universe. For if they do exist, then they have the power to help us in our mundane affairs. Perhaps, their more extensive consciousness can help expand our limited consciousness. Heck, even dolphins outdo us in some aspects of consciousness! And who knows what they see that we haven't yet. ;p
Unobservant? Moi?
I must admit I tend to ignore most humans, they bore me quite frankly, but in the broad sense of the word? Nonsense, I notice acute changes of no importance whatsoever.
Alright then, but I bet there's a correlation between IQ and spiritualism.
Hrm, Mensa studies confirmed a heavy lean towards atheism if I recall.
(Where did I put the link?)
I must admit I tend to ignore most humans, they bore me quite frankly, but in the broad sense of the word? Nonsense, I notice acute changes of no importance whatsoever.
Alright then, but I bet there's a correlation between IQ and spiritualism.
Hrm, Mensa studies confirmed a heavy lean towards atheism if I recall.
(Where did I put the link?)
That's quite a claim. My instinct is to say your wrong but i actually don't know
I'd like to see that link
Agh.
It's so distant in my mind, I just recall tossing it at a theist who considered us Atheist's 'completely stupid'.
I may have read it in the God delusion and then nicked a link.
Besides, one only needs to look at the typical dogmatic preacher to know that intelligence *Generall
y* droops as faith strengthens.
There are exceptions I'm sure, Lewis comes to mind.
Am I the only one who thinks a sentence loses all credibility when it begins 'I feel as if...'?
[MENTION=2027]Raccoon[/MENTION]love: Yeah, that means you betch.
It's so distant in my mind, I just recall tossing it at a theist who considered us Atheist's 'completely stupid'.
I may have read it in the God delusion and then nicked a link.
Besides, one only needs to look at the typical dogmatic preacher to know that intelligence *Generall
y* droops as faith strengthens.
There are exceptions I'm sure, Lewis comes to mind.
Am I the only one who thinks a sentence loses all credibility when it begins 'I feel as if...'?
[MENTION=2027]Raccoon[/MENTION]love: Yeah, that means you betch.
I've just looked into this and it seems you're right.
There is an average difference of 6 iq points between atheists and deeply religious people plus the vast majority of people with higher degrees are atheists.
This trend has been well documented since the 1920's.
An even bigger factor is wealth though. Poorer countries are more likely to be religious and are more likely to have a lower iq.
Just Google it. It's quite clear and well documented
There is an average difference of 6 iq points between atheists and deeply religious people plus the vast majority of people with higher degrees are atheists.
This trend has been well documented since the 1920's.
An even bigger factor is wealth though. Poorer countries are more likely to be religious and are more likely to have a lower iq.
Just Google it. It's quite clear and well documented
Only six!?
Christ, with that much I could have an IQ of like... *Counts fingers*
Ten!
Christ, with that much I could have an IQ of like... *Counts fingers*
Ten!
Yet Anglicans have been shown to be smarter than Atheists in terms of IQ. Furthermore, as I recall, the international study was handed its arse in criticism, even if the counterpoints will probably never be as well known as the claims themselves. But that's neither here nor there.
Anyway....
:focus:
Now about Guardian angels, I am not sure they exist, but at the same time, I think there are reasons to believe they may exist. For example, my cousin, while walking out on the ice of my grandma's lake (we usually go up there on vacation and it freezes over in the winter of course) fell through and almost drowned. According to his story, he put his face up to the ice and could not find the hole he fell through. Then someone reached down and pulled him up through the ice... that is the solid ice, without making a hole in it not quite 50 feet away from the hole he fell through. He said they looked like snowmobilers at first, but when he turned to look at them again, they were gone, no tracks, no nothing, he was there, wet, 50 ft away from the hole he fell through. Now there are several conclusions one could make, either I am lying, my cousin was lying, or I am as best as I can relaying to you, what he told me when I had this same discussion with him, and found out what reason he had to believe in Guardian angels. The dilemma is that while we might say he hallucinated everything but the hole, and his falling through, in saying so his survival then becomes difficult to account for.
Anyway....
:focus:
Now about Guardian angels, I am not sure they exist, but at the same time, I think there are reasons to believe they may exist. For example, my cousin, while walking out on the ice of my grandma's lake (we usually go up there on vacation and it freezes over in the winter of course) fell through and almost drowned. According to his story, he put his face up to the ice and could not find the hole he fell through. Then someone reached down and pulled him up through the ice... that is the solid ice, without making a hole in it not quite 50 feet away from the hole he fell through. He said they looked like snowmobilers at first, but when he turned to look at them again, they were gone, no tracks, no nothing, he was there, wet, 50 ft away from the hole he fell through. Now there are several conclusions one could make, either I am lying, my cousin was lying, or I am as best as I can relaying to you, what he told me when I had this same discussion with him, and found out what reason he had to believe in Guardian angels. The dilemma is that while we might say he hallucinated everything but the hole, and his falling through, in saying so his survival then becomes difficult to account for.
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Yes well religious folk always kick up a massive fuss when anything makes them look less than perfect. What exactly do you mean by had their arse handed to them?
Btw i found several separate studies which reached the same conclusion
Plus every explanation you stated other than guardian angels is infinately more plausible. Either he was lying or just confused after his near death experience.
It always makes me laugh how religious types are so quick to attribute things to the work of god based on the flimsiest of evidence
- Aug 9, 2009
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I find supernatural anecdotes to be somewhat confusing, though even within the realm of the supernatural, there are many explanations we can give other than that there are angels watching over us. I wonder if the more 'spiritual' people have actually tapped into some kind of power which allows them to pop into another parallel dimension temporarily, allowing for things such as the above.
But, it still seems much more likely that we hallucinate or get an overactive imagination about things, esp. in times of crisis.
But, it still seems much more likely that we hallucinate or get an overactive imagination about things, esp. in times of crisis.
Hey PJ,
Also, (I assume you and I can both agree that many people have experiences like these) if we simply write it off as a lie every time we face a situation we do not understand, then we are judging merely by ideological bias and/or philosophical preconception rather than a will to discover.
Personally, I am withholding my judgment on the issue of guardian angels for now.
That said, I tend not to ridicule people's personal experiences though, or even arguments I think are flimsy. I have done that in the past, and I think I look like a fool for having done so, after I was persuaded to sit down and discuss the issues with humility, grace, and poise.
Hey Kaze,
I do agree with you that his argument was somewhat flimsy, (incidentally, I thought we were talking about guardian angels, not works of God) but I would say a flimsy argument is better than none at all. I cannot agree though that every explanation I stated is infinitely more plausible than guardian angels. In fact, if we accept that my cousin was telling the truth, (about his experiences, even if we don't assume he's necessarily accurate, or confused) none of the explanations natural or supernatural seem plausible at all.
Also, (I assume you and I can both agree that many people have experiences like these) if we simply write it off as a lie every time we face a situation we do not understand, then we are judging merely by ideological bias and/or philosophical preconception rather than a will to discover.
Personally, I am withholding my judgment on the issue of guardian angels for now.
That said, I tend not to ridicule people's personal experiences though, or even arguments I think are flimsy. I have done that in the past, and I think I look like a fool for having done so, after I was persuaded to sit down and discuss the issues with humility, grace, and poise.
How can you blame them though? I mean even presuming the criticisms weren't legitimate, lets say that someone wrote something saying that people (generally) who believe as you do about whatever (pick something that you're passionate about) are x,y,or z (assuming those are very bad) you never get defensive, or annoyed, or even feel slighted in the least degree?
Hey Kaze,
Yes that's interesting, lets say those vanishing 'snowmobilers' were supernatural beings, that doesn't necessitate they were guardian angels, perhaps they could be ghosts, or something else even... (assuming one believes in those things as well) good thought. parallel dimensions... well consiousness is a strange phenomenon, but that's a little much, even for me.
Religion has not the absence of anything but possibly human understanding. The "do this and don't do thats" of religion? It is called law. Until one actually tries to be holy and perfect by following all the law, they really have missed the beauty of the tutor.
Angels? There must be things to question if we are to seek understanding. The problem with understanding may very well be the absence of those seeking it.
Many doors are opened to those that acquire the thirst and hunger for understanding and accept it in its own time and place. There may be few that give it the time or are poised properly to have a meal shared with them.
Many refuse the milk needed to digest before being fed the meat; thus, the meat is never offered them.
I am mindful of Angels, as I feel I very well should be; no matter what their purpose.
Angels? There must be things to question if we are to seek understanding. The problem with understanding may very well be the absence of those seeking it.
Many doors are opened to those that acquire the thirst and hunger for understanding and accept it in its own time and place. There may be few that give it the time or are poised properly to have a meal shared with them.
Many refuse the milk needed to digest before being fed the meat; thus, the meat is never offered them.
I am mindful of Angels, as I feel I very well should be; no matter what their purpose.