Bible Mysticism and Symbology

[Lao Tzunami]

I was recently reminded of the binding of Isaac when watching Avatar Fire and Ash.

In the torah, Elohim command Abraham to sacrifice his only son Isaac. Isaac willingly participates in constructing the alter and his binding. At the last moment, an angel prevents Abraham from landing a killing blow. They then see a goat stuck in a thicket and sacrifice that instead. Because of this, Abraham is the father of nations

This reminds me of the scientific process. To be a good scientist, you have to try everything to prove your own theory wrong and kill it. If you are actually aligned with reality and not just trying to force your interpretation, something greater than you will prevent you from actually destroying it.

Because of his attitude, Abraham became the father of nations, because the willingness to adapt to reality aligns you with the creative force.

We can trust our feelings and instincts because they are the result of natural selection. The iterative selection of our ancestors by nature is what tuned our being with life. People have a hard time understanding that science has value not because we have everything figured out, but because voluntarily participating in natural selection is what drives progress.

My critique of science is the limited scope to materialism, but the higher virtue is voluntarily participating in evolution via feedback with reality. This is why living out your beliefs is so important, and hypocrisy is so bad. Only through action do you know what the many competing drives and feelings is actually supreme, and only by acting in the world and seeing the result can you know if you are correct or if you need to learn. Learning is an openness that let's you evolve to the optimal level, while never attaching to the current state, and remaining flexible enough to adapt when the environment changes.

@Fruiteloop I see the burning bush as a similar symbol. Fire is the element of transformation, and normally bushes die as they are consumed by flame. Like the binding of Isaac, where Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his only son lead to him being the most reproductively fit father in history, the burning of holy fire leads to life rather than death. The tree of human knowledge and the biological phylogenetic tree of life are both burning because they are in a state of transformation and revision. You can of course have fields of "knowledge" that become increasingly more complicated and differentiated that are not grounded in reality which would be destroyed when burning. Pursuing the burning bush is what causes Moses to reject Egyptian fascism and lead his people into the desert.

Another related metaphor is how fire is required refine ore, extracting the metal while burning away and extracting the impurities. I believe all three are related to the same attitude of adaptation toward reality.

One of my favorite alchemical images is the double ouroboros with a tree growing in the center, which I believe is the dream the scientific process is currently executing.

 

[QuickTwist]

Your wiki article states that Ludemann believed that the historical Jesus only said about 5% of the statements attributed to him in the gospels. Why are you bringing this person into the discussion when he so clearly disagrees with you?

Because even though he disagrees with me, he still affirms the six minimal facts for the resurrection of Jesus. He also believes in the group appearances of Jesus after His death... that's powerful enemy attestation.

Now, you might say, "But he doesn't actually believe in the resurrection. So why does it matter that he agrees with the six facts?" Because his reasons for denying the resurrection are NOT based on the evidence. They are based on a presupposition, not evidence.

 

[Lao Tzunami]

@meowzician @QuickTwist I would love to hear more about your personal spiritual experience, visions, dreams, symbolism you find inspiring, your meditations on their meaning, and how they changed your relationship to reality or lead to personal transformation.

I'd much rather hear about that than which of you wins this debate.

 

[QuickTwist]

@meowzician @QuickTwist I would love to hear more about your personal spiritual experience, visions, dreams, symbolism you find inspiring, your meditations on their meaning, and how they changed your relationship to reality or lead to personal transformation.

I'd much rather hear about that than which of you wins this debate.

The problem with sharing these mystical experiences is that they often mean so much to the person experiencing them and very little by comparison to outside onlookers. They can easily be dismissed away as not reliable, or imagination, or whatever else.

Further, unless I actually stop to write these experiences down, I often end up forgetting about them. This isn't because they were not real, it's because I experience them so often that it is just part of life for me and as such is not something I make a "thing" out of. They are just a part of my life, like eating breakfast or getting your oil changed. I just find that these things happen so often to me that they are just part of life.

However, I will share this experience. I don't expect it to convince anyone else, but I will share it because you asked...

Here is one...

Hebrews 4:12
"For the word of God is living and effective and sharper than any double-edged sword, penetrating as far as the separation of soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart."

I've heard this verse come up for me at least four times in the last few days, from different sources. Clearly, God is trying to get my attention with something.

It dawns on me now, the impact this meeting with the prophet, with whom I had one conversation, that turned my life around forever, had on my view of the Word of God. This man confirmed the Bible as the Word of God to me. Though the origin of this individual is deeply mysterious, I left the encounter with a deep sense of reverence for the Word of God.

I think this verse coming up for me so often recently is a reminder of the impression this man left on me of his high reverence for the Word of God, which he passed on to me. I needed to be reminded of this. Rather than the focus on the man (who he was, whether he came from a supernatural origin or not), I should instead be focusing on how he made his points that cut through all my weaknesses, and he did this with the Word of God.

I will always be thankful to that man. I debated (and in some sense, still do) whether this man was Jesus in the flesh. He spoke as though he knew me. Like he was a living, breathing version of Hebrews 4:12. He left me with an uncompromising faith which led to a great change in me, both internally and externally, both spiritually and physically. I know I have a long way to go. That is what the Word of God says. But, wherever you are, dear friend, thank you for pointing me towards the Truth. My resolve is solid.

Here is another...

I experienced a vision last night while I was in bed. Originally, I thought to get out of bed and write it down right then and there, but I decided if it was truly from God, I would remember the details the next day.

The vision I had was beautiful. Allow me to give the vision with no falsehoods or embellishments.

In my vision I saw the United States from space. I saw what looked like the Holy Spirit filling the US and spreading. The key to this was that there was a true uniting of Christians. Rather than Christians becoming more divided over doctrine, they were becoming united under one banner of faith. It was beautiful. There was no "time frame" for this vision, meaning I have no idea when this is supposed to occur.

Many thoughts went through my head as I saw this. I thought of what the cause for this uniting in faith was based on. The answer to this was that it was a work of the Spirit of God primarily, but also due to persecution against Christians, in a sense forcing them to convene. Other thoughts went through my head, such as what does this mean for Catholic vs Protestant believers? What does this mean for Catholic vs Eastern Orthodox believers? Will this movement stay in the US, or will it spread to other parts of the world? It was a very hopeful vision.

A final thought about the vision is that it lines up with this passage,

Ephesians 4:11-13
"And he himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, to build up the body of Christ, until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of God’s Son, growing into maturity with a stature measured by Christ’s fullness."

The key to this is the word "until." What this means is that there will not be unity until "we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of God’s Son," which clearly has not happened yet. Therefore, at some point, what I saw in my vision will come true, and all Christians will be united in one faith. This is a work of God, not something humans can orchestrate.

I pray this is an encouragement to those who, like me, strive towards unity at this present time.

This is in addition to the article I linked where I talked about a couple of dreams I had. I'm reluctant to share these because people so often don't think much of them or don't appreciate them.

 

[Fruiteloop]

@Lao Tzunami

There was a time in my life ten years ago when I had this person whom I thought true hated me was writing things after i commented on his blog that I found were indirectly targeted at me. I had shown interest in what he had been writing for some time reading him but I knew I could not hate him back and I was very sad. I wrote down that I knew he was in pain and that I forgave him for what he said. I was then I went to sleep and found myself in a white void. I saw a female face and a figure covered in a cloak of liquid gold sunlight for what seemed like 20 seconds. Then everything was unconscious and I woke up. It was the most real experience I have ever had. The light was brighter than anything because it did not fade away like when the sun blinds you. I was completely steady and continuous light.

I think that forgiveness needs love for a person to become truly changed by it. I knew the person was hurting and I felt that hurt myself.

I believe that spiritual experiences happen in this way where the self is forgotten and fades away and all the is left is awareness.

It is like a purification.

All the esoteric stuff that comes with it can be relayed in symbols and pictures but if one can only relate to them if one has experienced them.

So I think that when one has experienced them those images presented has greater meaning in what they convey.

It be like how the image of marry has greater meaning if one has seen marry.

One can dwell on the image and become immersed in that feeling one had when they had the experience in the past.

It then become possible for one to understand the meaning behind most artworks related in a spiritual nature.

Spirituality is about meaning above all else.

 

[Lao Tzunami]

Here is one...

• "For the word of God is living and effective and sharper than any double-edged sword, penetrating as far as the separation of soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart."

So the "word of God" is the Logos. Fundamentally, I believe logos is the conscious feedback with reality. This is the spirit that hovers over the chaos at the beginning of creation, and also what Christ represents.

The quantum physicist John Wheeler had a great diagram of the entire universe being aware of a tip of itself. The U can mean Universe or Unity. To me this "participatory universe" is the Logos.

 

[Lao Tzunami]

@Lao Tzunami
I was then I went to sleep and found myself in a white void. I saw a female face and a figure covered in a cloak of liquid gold sunlight for what seemed like 20 seconds. Then everything was unconscious and I woke up. It was the most real experience I have ever had. The light was brighter than anything because it did not fade away like when the sun blinds you. I was completely steady and continuous light.

Can you recall that state of mind? If so, how does that change how you relate to yourself and to other people? Have you found certain ways of being aligned or unaligned with that experience?

 

[Wyote]

the entire universe being aware of a tip of itself

Just the tip tho

 

[Fruiteloop]

Can you recall that state of mind? If so, how does that change how you relate to yourself and to other people? Have you found certain ways of being aligned or unaligned with that experience?

I knew that there was more than physical things existing or I started to believe more that physical reality wasn't the only thing there is.

I find that when I am accepted or when I accept others or when I generally just accept circumstances as they are then I am relieved of deep pains in me and this creates peace of mind and a deeper spiritual peace.

For a long time I was confused about what I should do. I never really felt accepted. But after that experience what came with it was a sense that I should explore spiritual realities more. Even when I fought with people I knew I had to be kind. In that sense I gained a greater awareness of morality. That I should always do the right thing to the best I could. I still lacked some self awareness and I made mistakes but I have seen what life could be like without my emotional pain controlling me. I follow that path to always try and help others if I can.

 

[regrat]

No they didn't. You are confusing legends with history.

Facts about the death of the Apostles:
- the martyr death of James (son of Zebedee) is mentioned in Acts 12:2
- Church father Clement indicates about death of Peter and Paul in Rome. Details are unknown.
- Jewish historian Josephus Flavius writes abouth death of James, brother of Jesus.
-John who is both, apostle and considered as evangelist was the only who died of natural causes, old. Maybe it was a reward for he was the only apostle who stood under the Cross, while other apostles run away.
Deaths of the other apostles are legends.

In my opinion, their deaths are unknown for not to be worshiped- they or the places of death. So, the whole focus could remain on Jesus. Yet, the tradition made up stories some centuries later and people started to worship them, sometimes even instead of the Lord. In the Middle Age people couldn't build a church without having a part of martyr's body remain.
It is similar in the relationship between Jesus and John the Baptist. After Jesus is baptized, he "takes over", while John is withdrawn from the scene, so Jesus can shine better (even John himself said that John 3:30)

 

[meowzician]

Deaths of the other apostles are legends.

Okay? I'm sure you see a point that this leads to, but I'm not connecting your dots. Are you implying that legends are bad things? Is it wrong to tell children the story of George Washington chopping down the cherry tree?

In my opinion, their deaths are unknown for not to be worshiped

I don't think there is a why. Sometimes things get recorded and sometimes they aren't.

If we knew their deaths, would they be idolized? Or made into a god like Jesus? It's possible, but not likely.

On one hand, I myself have wondered, if Moses had gone into Canaan along with the rest of the Israelites, how would it have changed our history? And idolization is certainly one of the possible alternative timelines I imagine. So that's a point in your favor.

But on the other hand, we do know how James died, but I don't see him idolized. I know how MLK died. I love that man. I very much wish I could be just like him. But I don't think he is a deity. I know how Rabbi Akiva died. I am amazed. It makes me deeply examine myself... Are there things I am willing to die for? But he is my example to follow, not my God.

In the Middle Age people couldn't build a church without having a part of martyr's body remain.

This practice is not limited to the Middle Ages. It is still done quite regularly today in Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox churches; a relic is *always* present within, beneath, or upon the altar. IOW all the groups of Christians that predate the Reformation do this. This practice stretches back to when Christians hid in the catacombs under Rome, and celebrated Eucharist literally on the tombs of martyrs.

It kind of seems freaky to Protestants today (you can just imagine how bizarre it feels to Jews and other non-Christians), because if you aren't already immersed in that tradition, it just feels strange. IOW, we feel culture shock.

But honestly, the deep roots of relic esteem go back to the time of the apostles themselves. Your own New Testament speaks of the miraculous powers of Peter's shadow, or Paul's handkerchiefs and apron. In the book of Jude, Satan and the Archangel Michael argue over the relics of Moses.

The reason that Protestants don't do this was a knee-jerk reaction to Catholicism. If Catholics did something, Protestants would do something else. Since Catholics use relics, Protestants don't.

And Protestantism broke with Church history. It's like after the book of Revelation was written nothing else happened in history until the Reformation. For the majority of Protestants, anything significant that occurred during that window of time gets reduced to a kind of fuzziness, a mental gloss.

Ask them how the NT canon came into being, and it is the rare Protestant that knows history. Most of them treat the NT like it somehow dropped out of heaven in its present form. Ask them how the Church came to adopt Trinitarianism, and most just assume that the Church was always Trinitarian. I would bet that there isn't a single Protestant in this forum that knew about the catacombs thing, and if they do, I salute them because they are a step above.

Anyhow, getting back to my main point, I think that even though using relics seems so foreign to us, we can mentally understand how culture shock works, and consciously resist the temptation to demonize a perfectly harmless practice just because it is alien to us.

After Jesus is baptized, he "takes over", while John is withdrawn from the scene,

Sigh* We'll return to this some other time. We already have enough things on our plate.