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For Women

Discussion in 'Relationships and Sociology' started by Asa, Feb 13, 2019.

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  1. acd

    acd Well-known member

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    This kind of shit is why we still need feminism. Because there is a big chunk of the country that believes as soon as an egg is fertilized, women have no rights. And many of these people are in positions of power. It failed, thankfully.. but people keep voting these types in. It's crazy to me this bill was even proposed in this century...

    Failed Texas Bill Would Have Made Death Penalty Possible in Abortion Cases

    From the article:

     
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  2. Impact Character

    Impact Character Detachment Trainee

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    Thank you everyone for opening this thread @Asa and sharing your stories and quotes. I mean it.. Witnessing the support is already a wonderful thing..

    and thank you @soulareclipse especially for this..


    My story has a little different nuance, and I'm not really there yet to share (but I am in therapy and I will start talking about it.).. .. Just that I've spent a lot lifetime and energy on making myself downplaying, functioning and even protecting the person involved, keeping some kind of harmony in the overall context, that created a rift within myself including too many physical health issues that I need to address. I'm a bit nervous about what is in front of me. You know.. some kind of box of Pandora.
    Some days ago, I watched that "documentary" about the Netherland farm which incredibly stirred me up in a way that my SO got extremely nervous. I told him rather vaguely because I was not ready, and asked him not to go too wild with his imagination, that I'm going to talk about it in therapy first, that it was a long long time ago, that nothing really has changed except that my dear SO knows something else about me, and that he is doing everything right since we know each other and doesn't have to do anything else - besides just being himself. I feel silly for worrying more about him than myself. I feel silly about all these layers and how people react when you strip one of many more down..

    (Edit: Please don't overthink this either. That documentary was just in general awful, and not like my story. ^^")



    ..Can I say it one more time?
    This forum is a wonderful place with wonderful people .. <3
     
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    #62 Impact Character, Apr 11, 2019
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  3. OP
    Asa

    Asa Resident palindrome

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    Sending you light and support, @Impact Character. Opening up to us as much as you did is an act of strength.

    It is so good that you are seeking therapy. I'll be concerned for your health issues. <3

    Your SO sounds like a supporting and caring person. It can be so difficult to learn that someone hurt the person we love. Sometimes it really is worse because the person who went through it has a way of coping, while loved ones are just thinking, "Someone hurt the person I love!" (Then in our minds we turn into sword-wielding warriors championing our loved ones.)

    I agree with @soulareclipse, too. You can't go back to the before. We grow as human beings, and growing means forward, not back. We can be just as happy, healthy, whole, and balanced as we once were, but it will be different... and better because we will have that wisdom and the new strength of recovery.

    <3 to you.
     
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    Asa

    Asa Resident palindrome

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    @acd - That story is so terrifying. It's a hate crime to the highest degree disguised as a bill. It is difficult to read about.
     
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  5. soulareclipse

    soulareclipse Community Member

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    Correct. It is a normal reaction to an abnormal event.

    I got a German Shepherd Dog. Truth be told, he was a harmless baby and probably would've wanted to play with an intruder, but not many people are going to risk fucking with someone who has a GSD by their side or on the other side of the door.

    IMG_5755[911].JPG

    It's called "gaslighting" and it's very real.

    Say it louder for the people in the back!!

    12547331_944830565600625_954878385_n.jpg

    Right? I've noticed the same thing. :<3yellow: (tagging @Asa because I want to make sure she sees this. :relaxed:)

    We need to bring back ceremonies that evoke the sacred feminine.

    You're so welcome, my dear. I'm glad my words help you in some way. If you ever need to talk privately, don't hesitate to send me a PM. I may not be great at responding right away, but will try to encourage and support you (and anyone else here ftm) any time! :<3yellow:
     
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  6. soulareclipse

    soulareclipse Community Member

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    "We're pro-life and we'll kill your ass!" - Bill Hicks, pro-choice Comedian on pro-lifers bombing abortion clinics
     
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  7. Impact Character

    Impact Character Detachment Trainee

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  8. Hostarius

    Hostarius Level 10 Cynical Optimist

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    E.g. The 'professionalisation' of midwifery in Europe in the late Early Modern Period.
     
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  9. Ginny

    Ginny Displaced Naiad

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    A very small, but potentially important step in the long term. However, with the progression of medicine, even that is a profession which is almost lost to us.
    Besides, it is very little in terms of what it means to be a woman. Maybe even too little. After all, it begins in childhood, motherhood and old age simultaneously. Midwifery covered a small part of this intersection, but it's so much more...
     
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  10. Hostarius

    Hostarius Level 10 Cynical Optimist

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    Well I refer to that as an emblem of the 'disenchantment' of Europe, which often meant that female-only circles/professions (like midwifery) were broken up and monopolised by men because the women involved in them often had supernatural/witchy vibes. Sorry to imply that what you're talking about was limited to midwifery.

    I think there's an interesting link between Englightenment/Disenchantment and the slow conquest of female public life by male and state power.
     
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  11. Impact Character

    Impact Character Detachment Trainee

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    Juchitán, the méxican feministic version of the village "Gauls" is in a country that is mainly known for Machismo. It's ruled by the most grounded Queens. Also: check out Muxa and Velas.

    [​IMG]
     
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  12. Ginny

    Ginny Displaced Naiad

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    It's sad to instinctively think that way, on my part. You did say "for example," after all. But it looks like we're more or less on the same page with this.

    However, it's also a diachronical expansion on your synchronical example. Thank you for putting your post into context.

    Not just interesting, but also ironic, considering how religious beliefs coincided with Ego dominance and the male need to disenfranchise womanhood on a "scientific" basis. It is very much the opposite of enlightenment from a modern psycho-spiritual point of view. I believe it may have to do with ceasing to believe in female goddess figures (as well as male gods), because in other cultures that are not monotheistic they retained a balance of Ego and unconscious, for the most part.
    At least this is what I have been able to glean so far. Not sure how much this will change upon further studying. But I added historical studies of witchcraft, occultism and other contexts to my mind map.
     
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  13. OP
    Asa

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    "Supernatural/witchy" = women with strength, power, wisdom, educations, etc. Any strong and capable woman could be labeled "witchy". Accusing women of witchcraft was an easy, phobic way to commit systematic misogyny and eradicate female importance and power. (Many) pre-Christian "pagan*" religions recognized women as powerful and women were well represented in both religion and society. Christianity only added the worship of the Virgin Mary to persuade hesitant pagans who were disinterested in converting because female gods were not represented. Many of the oldest statues and art of Christian deities were actually artifacts representing earlier pagan gods that were "repurposed" for the forced Christian agenda. Of course, the pagan holidays were repurposed as well.
    Female wisdom, crafts, skills, sexuality, bodies.... were all labeled evil, primitive, "sinful", etc... because witchcraft was deemed "evil", though it is not evil, and women held power in society during the pagan area, which was deemed a "primitive" and "unenlightened" time. This is Christian-washing, misogynist, and the focus of a massive genocide (ie the witch hunt) and centuries of oppression and inequality. There is nothing enlightened about this. It's hate.

    Obviously, as science and knowledge progressed some practices were replaced with more advanced practices. As the caregivers, women should have been included in medical advancements in education and practices, especially with childbirth, but also with caring for the elders and caring for the wounded, which were common female roles during pagan times. Women were excluded from receiving educations and from being allowed to have careers, sometimes in the very fields of study that women dominated before Christian ideals wiped out our strength. It's all misogyny.

    I didn't really want to get into a theological discussion because so many lovely people on this forum are Christian and I don't want to seem like I am attacking their faith, but this whole enlightened vs 'primitive' witchcraft thing is not going to fly with me.

    Yes, science is greater and better than witchcraft, and witchcraft included superstition and ritual**, but many of the medicinal practices using (for example) herbs actually work, and were the basis for modern medicine. This knowledge should have advanced with women, but women were excluded because our society was misogynist.
    "Witchcraft" is at the roots of science.
    For example:
    – The roots of astronomy and meteorology were a large part of pagan practices and holiday rituals. Holidays mattered because our survival depended on knowing when to plant the seeds (Imbolc) when the last harvest had to be in (Samhain) before winter, etc. It was very simple: If we did not follow weather patterns and astronomy that told us when the seasons changed we would die. Folklore around full moons is not simple myth. Ye, stories evolved around full moons, but the full moon was when we hunted because we could see at night. So, the witchy, pagany full moon was purely practical. We knew the longest day of the year (Summer solstice) and the shortest (Winter Solstice) as well as the equinoxes and cross quarter days. We knew how to navigate via the stars. We understood our surroundings in the sky and on earth.
    The church later condemned Galileo because studying astronomy challenged the Christian ideas of god. Newton was also considered a heretic. Calculus was blasphemous.

    – Medicine. Plants and chemicals mimicking those plants are still the basis for medicines. Plants are powerful... the rainforest is full of plants used in medicine like chemotherapy. Opiates are from a flower. My former flower garden was accidentally full of plants that can induce miscarriage... and yes, those plants actually work and will cause abortions. I had to tell my friends who were trying to get pregnant to stay out of my garden. (This was purely accidental, and as I learned more about the history of plants I realized I had chosen a half dozen of these plants because they were pretty.) This was women's knowledge. Medicine from plants was women's knowledge. When Christianity took over this knowledge was kept secret, but women still used it and took great personal risks to share it. Caring for wounded warriors was women's knowledge, too. Women were warriors, too, and warrior remains previously "assumed" to be male (because our modern and "enlightened sensibilities told us women weren't fighters) have now been confirmed female. All this knowledge was taken from us and we were forced to, basically, become uneducated broodmares, maids, and cooks... and as home cooks we weren't even allowed to have the dignity of the title "chef". Chefs were men. The truly rebellious women dared to study. Women who chose to write or paint used pseudonyms. Women could be nurses, but we weren't allowed to become doctors or scientists. The few who dared were "scandalous". Women weren't even allowed to enjoy sex... yet at the same time, to this day, women are put "on trial" when they are raped, and they are both adored ad vilified as sexual 'objects'. The Madonna/Whore dichotomy is a product of Christianity. Women did not decide this for themselves. This oppression was forced upon us. Our wisdom was associated with 'primitive and evil' witchcraft.

    Witchcraft should not be grouped in with the term "unenlightened" when what conquered it was so dark.

    Per usual, I'm typing off the top of my head, so apologies for spelling and grammatical errors.

    *pagan is a blanket term.
    **spoiler: Christianity is superstitious and ritual-based, too.
     
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    #73 Asa, Apr 12, 2019
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  14. Hostarius

    Hostarius Level 10 Cynical Optimist

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    Hey, Asa, I completely agree with you. Did you feel like I was somehow denigrating 'witchiness'?

    What I found interesting was that the progress of, let's say, 'misogyny' as it is understood today, proceeded lockstep with the idea of 'Enlightenment', and thus that the decline of explicitly 'female' domains is strongly correlated with (I hesitate to assert a causal relationship here, but that's what I suspect) what has been called the 'disenchantment' of Europe.

    Looked at in broader, more symbolic terms (though which are necessarily more speculative), it's fascinating that the symbolic feminine seemed to gradually give way to the symbolic masculine across the whole of society, and I think this is partly what @Ginny meant when she mentioned 'ego dominance'.

    I think what happened to midwifery is emblematic of this process, where the pre-Enlightenment 'birth rituals' across much of Europe seem unrecognisable to us now: totally dominated by women, men completely excluded, and all conducted under the air of something supernatural, until (male) doctors insisted that they become involved.

    EDIT: I had a particular article in mind when I posted about midwifery, but I couldn't find it on my laptop. Some of you may find this (attachment) an interesting read, though, if anyone has the time or inclination.
     

    Attached Files:

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    #74 Hostarius, Apr 12, 2019
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  15. OP
    Asa

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    Agree.

    Ohhhh, thank you for sharing the article!
     
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  16. soulareclipse

    soulareclipse Community Member

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    Damn, woman.

    Have you considered authoring a blog? You should totally author a blog. Seriously, this is important information that will only become more obscure and lost to our future girls and women unless changes are made. Women like you who beat the drum of the goddess are the true wild warriors and champions of our sisters. As I read this, I stopped so many times and said things *out loud* like "holy shit" "she's so right" "yes, exactly". When I read your note marked ** I literally said "Boom!". We all have that energy inside of us, but due to misogyny, it's a fire that has been systematically choked out.

    We cannot continue to rely on the patriarchy to define us. But until we women can stand before it as a united front, instead of competing with each other, unfortunately we won't be taken seriously. Misogyny is so prolific that many women are themselves misogynistic, judging women on, among other asinine banalities, our appearance and beauty - beauty that is based on male standards, no less - rather than our achievements and advancements.

    We have to prove to them that they are wrong about us by showing, not telling them. And we do that by showing them that the current structure is wrong - wrong about us only having value insofar as what lies between our legs and rests upon our chests, that it is wrong about us being 'irrational', 'hysterical'.

    Jesus fuck, just thinking about what the male doctors' 'cure' was for hysteria - The Ladies Disease - will make one's skin crawl - contemporary women and men alike. It's hard to believe that it could get worse, but then to think that these "physicians" themselves would, for a price, "assist" with performing the "cure" is, in my estimation, sexual assault. In the name of medicine, for fuck's sake. These scientific medical professionals preferred to use early vibrators as "electromechanical medical instruments" as a substitute for their fingers to administer said cures. The word "hysterics" is itself a misogynistic word - a derogatory one that attributed a woman's emotional outbursts and sex drive to her uterus. "Hysterical Neurosis" was recognized as a diagnosis in the DSM until 1980. How is it again that their logic and "medicine" was more scientific and sound than that of the 'superstitious', 'supernatural' female collective? It wasn't scientific, or even supernatural, just straight up shameful.
     
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  17. Ginny

    Ginny Displaced Naiad

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    Yes, it's what I meant to bring across by mentioning the likely reason for this in Jungian terms.
    It is not exactly what I meant to say either, since both the meanings of the symbolic masculine and the symbolic feminine have been changed in the process you're trying to describe. Therefore it is so easy to villify both the ego and the symbolic male just like the church and society villified the symbolic feminine (tbh, I would actually prefer the term 'divine' masculinity/femininity for the use of their original meaning, as the meanings did hail down from stories of divine origins). We must not confuse those meanings when we talk about this.

    When I read the shared article yesterday, I was in equal parts saddened by the fate of women as I was frustrated by the cultural ignorance that was so ubiquitous. Indeed, it was as was already said, that women were denied to share their secrets because their bible said women were evil and only "saved" through the pain of childbirth*. So automatically, unwed and childless women would be declared evil, or witches, and ostracised, exiled, incarcerated or killed.
    I am disgusted by the practices spread by ignorance, which came about and prevailed just because women were silenced into forgetting their divinity. The same actually goes for males, who still have at least an idea of their divine purpose, but tend to ignore it as they are overpowered by their unhealthy egos (unhealthy because unbalanced by the unconscious).


    Edit: *Admittedly, it is only the Lutheran perspective as claimed in the article. There were also other "reasons" which substituted the "old" reasons as time went on.

    Also, it's a crime how women were treated, that there even needed to be laws to prohibit domestic violence, and so are the reasons that are stated for having these laws. That women should have to resort to such means just to have an existence in the widest sense of peacefulness is abominable.
    After all, it is only the process of submission that made all this happen in the first place.
     
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    #77 Ginny, Apr 13, 2019
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    Asa

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    On a lighter note, these "Man Who Has It All" t-shirts are hilarious. I can't stop laughing at "Man Poet".

    Screen Shot 2019-04-13 at 8.21.21 AM.png
     
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    Asa

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    I'm wondering if there is anything you - the women of the forum - know how to do that was passed down to you from your mother and/or grandmother?
    A skill? A recipe? A song?
     
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    Asa

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    So, in regards to women who believe in equality calling themselves feminists:
    The definition of feminism is: the advocacy of women's rights on the basis of the equality of the sexes.
    The inventor of the term (or he who received credit) was not for total equality for women, but is quoted as saying, "Liberty, unless enjoyed by all, is unreal and illusory. . ."
    Is the term dated? Probably. But it still serves a purpose.

    Granted, within any group of people there will be extremes, but I'm just covering the bases. And no, I don't agree with everything that goes on, or relate to all feminists, and I am aware of the issues inside feminism.

    Are there feminists that hate men and do radical stuff? Yes there are. Most of those people have been horribly abused by men and/or the "patriarchy" and are lashing out in response. Plus, if you keep denying people equality their actions will become more and more extreme until they gain their freedom one way or another. All I can do is shrug and say, "If you don't want people to lash out, stop being abusive." I'm not advocating bad behavior, but I empathize with the root of it: a desire to stop the suffering and a desire to be EQUAL.

    Propaganda makes "feminism" a dirty word and makes people fear using the term.

    If I believe in equality for all why do I also believe that we need specific groups to discuss different inequalities? Well, because there are different levels of inequality in our society, and if we all go around saying we are equalists or egalitarians (and yes, I know egalitarian anarchists are a recognized group) and meet to discuss our issues, what is the hierarchy of those issues? People will be drowned out and they won't feel as safe speaking out because they won't be among their peers. Some perceived enemies (people who seem similar to enemies) may even be in the room.

    Who decides the hierarchy of issues discussed at the meeting of equalists? I have my opinions about that, and so would you, and when we're all together in a room there could be a lot of arguing over it. Deciding that hierarchy publicly would alienate people, too, whether they were at the top or bottom, or somewhere in the middle.

    We all need spaces to discuss issues and ways to stay on topic and keep the focus, and we all need to know where and when we should sit down, listen, and shut up unless asked to contribute.

    And yes, of course this includes men. Men need spaces. My own man belongs to an organization for men where they support each other as brothers. It's called the Masons.

    I want to live in a world where these groups are not necessary, and where nobody is oppressed. I think most of the people on the forum want that.

    That doesn't exist right now.

    Equality is also a strange thing to say one wants. What does that mean? Humans are terrible to each other in general. Gaining equality won't stop terrible behavior. Can we aspire to something greater than equality for all of us?
     
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    Sandie33, acd, Daustus and 2 others like this.
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