Oscillation(s) in belief | Page 3 | INFJ Forum

Oscillation(s) in belief

I don't want to be "the people of the book". I want to be "the people of God", and hopefully that includes the book - but it makes all the difference.
I don't want to "read the bible", I want to live the bible, and know it by heart. To read the bible would be like practicing a religious act, wich is something that I'm not searching for. I want to look into the eyes of God, and see that he looks back into mine, and I want to start living like that's the purpose of life. I know that if God has something to do with the bible, I ought to read it - I'm not against it, that's not the point! It's a matter of core, of fundation, of life and living water.

I want Jesus.
The real Jesus, nothing else.

Nothing else...













*crying a little bit*
 
Perhaps I will tell a little about what I oscillate between, later on.
Not today.
 
Oscillation said:
(Hum... how should I put this in english)
Yes, I understand what you're saying, and I agree, but you're missing one important aspect.

Science, as a form of empirism, have no problem with God. Materialism has, as it states that there is nothing more than materia. The problem is that most of todays science is built on materialism, to the degree that you could think they are the same thing, as I've done. So it's between materialism and faith the debate runs for decates, really, and not between science and God.

If God created the universe, then it's impossible that they should stand against eachother!

To be rational about faith is what I would call theology, and I want theology together with science. I want a rational mind, as I was given!
Click to expand...

Oh, I'm sorry for my wrong statement then.. haha. I am still learning and I know I have a long way to go.
I'm sharing my perspective as more of a spiritual kind of person..
But sometimes the less you know... the more you believe.
I can't say so much about Materialism because it's happening less in my country.
So maybe people here because of "knowing less" they seem to have stronger faith.
I noticed as well that because they have lesser (material) possessions..
the more they hold onto God esp. giving them hope through crisis or tragedies.
They have that resilience in spirit because of their faith.
I'm sorry if this maybe not be helpful to you or directly answering your query.
But I'm just trying to contribute a little different perspective. (that might be or hopefully helpful)
Theology however.. is not that very helpful. I mean I have studied it like my whole lifetime
and all I get from it are facts.. memorizing dates, names etc.
It doesn't really nurture your personal relationship with God.
But as I said.. it's a personal journey, being Christian is your childhood home..
now that you're an adult, like marrying.. you are free to choose and create your new home/family
Reflect internally. Answers usually can be found within.



Oscillation said:
I don't want to be "the people of the book". I want to be "the people of God", and hopefully that includes the book - but it makes all the difference.
I don't want to "read the bible", I want to live the bible, and know it by heart. To read the bible would be like practicing a religious act, wich is something that I'm not searching for. I want to look into the eyes of God, and see that he looks back into mine, and I want to start living like that's the purpose of life. I know that if God has something to do with the bible, I ought to read it - I'm not against it, that's not the point! It's a matter of core, of fundation, of life and living water.

I want Jesus.
The real Jesus, nothing else.

Nothing else...

*crying a little bit*
Click to expand...

It's a good thing that you are in so much doubt
yet you are asking for Him, for clarity and certainty.
But the more clouded your mind, the more it will be difficult.
I remember as a little child it's like I can always hear God's voice
talking to me. Maybe it's just an imagination..
but I noticed that, the more I get old.. and the more I learn
the more I couldn't hear His voice.
Sometimes we need to clear our thoughts/mind..
Sometimes maybe we couldn't hear His voice because
we are busy listening to our thoughts that are endless.
Sometimes we need to achieve that certain "purity" or becoming
'simple-minded" like a child. I know this might be very distant to
your own opinions but just sharing a few different perspective.
Hopefully helping you in your way.. but we can't do much to help you
It's really a personal journey and take your time.
Remember doubting Thomas.. even Francis of Assissi who abandoned his
wealthy life to join Christianity because he heard God's voice.
They were doubting so much and search the truth as well..
Doubt leads you to certainty and vice versa..

You don't have to read the bible.. but it's the only closest thing we can have with God.
It's not the book.. the treasures there are the words or the gospel.
They said we should meditate with the words day and night.
We can't believe on something just over night.
It's like an everyday affair.. like a work-out.
Christians need to work-out to have a strong muscle of (faith)
and bible serves like a dumbbell. If not practice.. over time, the whole thing wears off.
I think I should stop there.. this is really getting long. Sorry for that hehe. :)

I suggest you watch the movie "God's not Dead"
It might be helpful but if not.. it's still a nice try.
I know you'll get there.. to that certain closure or inner peace about God.
Whatever you choose.. it should make you happy.
Again.. this is only my opinion and I respect our different views.

(Also-there are things that can't be seen through our physical eyes but only our mind's eye can)


To top it off.. let me share this image with you. Originally titled- Too far away- A Matter of Perspective

wpid-20140329_171543.jpg

(I think you should click the image.. to maximize it!)

http://hopeinhispresence.com/2014/03/29/too-far-away-a-matter-of-perspective/
 
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There's no answer. But you'll keep asking. Till you're dead. Then you'll find out for real heh.
 
[MENTION=13900]Breathlessangel[/MENTION], thank you!
Your words are good for my heart.
 
Breathlessangel said:
(...) sometimes the less you know... the more you believe.
Click to expand...
And sometimes the more you know, the more you believe. The more you dig deep into matters, you'll become baffled about the complexity in it, and it leads to faith. Sometimes.

Breathlessangel said:
I can't say so much about Materialism because it's happening less in my country.
So maybe people here because of "knowing less" they seem to have stronger faith.
I noticed as well that because they have lesser (material) possessions..
the more they hold onto God esp. giving them hope through crisis or tragedies.
They have that resilience in spirit because of their faith.
Click to expand...
So what country is that, if I dare to ask? If it's too personal, feel free to not answere the question (but I will guess it's Polen... for some reasons).
Also 'materialism' the way I'm using it isn't the typical word for "a lot of possessions", but actually the philosophical concept that there exists no more than materia - matter! - thus making the conclusion that there is no God or a spiritual world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism

Breathlessangel said:
I'm sorry if this maybe not be helpful to you or directly answering your query.
But I'm just trying to contribute a little different perspective. (that might be or hopefully helpful)
Click to expand...
I appreciate your input!

Breathlessangel said:
(...) I have studied [theology] like my whole lifetime
and all I get from it are facts; memorizing dates, names etc. It doesn't really nurture your personal relationship with God.
Click to expand...
I guess so...
But I would also guess that it probably would be a little more purposeful for someone like me. Not necessarily names and dates, but theology as a study on the philosophy about God - the thoughts about God. Sure, it would still not nurture my personal relationship that much, but maybe that's not what it's supposed to do.

Breathlessangel said:
Sometimes we need to achieve that certain "purity" or becoming
'simple-minded" like a child.
Click to expand...
True, true. Sigh!
And all I'm doing is wander further away from that childhood, from "simple-mindness" to complexity.
I think it's C.S. Lewis who once said something about "you get what you're asking for": if you search for a complex answer, you're most likely to find one; if you're looking for a simple answer, you'll get one. Both are hopefully true - one more complex, and deeper, than the other.
 
Oscillation said:
And sometimes the more you know, the more you believe. The more you dig deep into matters, you'll become baffled about the complexity in it, and it leads to faith. Sometimes.


So what country is that, if I dare to ask? If it's too personal, feel free to not answere the question (but I will guess it's Polen... for some reasons).
Also 'materialism' the way I'm using it isn't the typical word for "a lot of possessions", but actually the philosophical concept that there exists no more than materia - matter! - thus making the conclusion that there is no God or a spiritual world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism


I appreciate your input!


I guess so...
But I would also guess that it probably would be a little more purposeful for someone like me. Not necessarily names and dates, but theology as a study on the philosophy about God - the thoughts about God. Sure, it would still not nurture my personal relationship that much, but maybe that's not what it's supposed to do.


True, true. Sigh!
And all I'm doing is wander further away from that childhood, from "simple-mindness" to complexity.
I think it's C.S. Lewis who once said something about "you get what you're asking for": if you search for a complex answer, you're most likely to find one; if you're looking for a simple answer, you'll get one. Both are hopefully true - one more complex, and deeper, than the other.
Click to expand...

What's Polen? You meant Poland? lol. Maybe I will let you know someday. For now, I love being anonymous and just giving few clues along the way. :) And, I 100% agree with your last statement.. you'll ask a simple answer; you'll get one. You'll have your answers soon.. I think it's best if you don't wander further away. If we let our mind be out of control.. we will have endless questions and yet we don't get any sure answers.
 
Breathlessangel said:
What's Polen? You meant Poland? lol. Maybe I will let you know someday. For now, I love being anonymous and just giving few clues along the way. :) And, I 100% agree with your last statement.. you'll ask a simple answer; you'll get one. You'll have your answers soon.. I think it's best if you don't wander further away. If we let our mind be out of control.. we will have endless questions and yet we don't get any sure answers.
Click to expand...

Yes, "Polen" is Poland in Swedish. I forgot it's not called the same in English.

I will look forward to those "clues". I'm rather fond of puzzles and games.
 
Oscillation said:
Yes, "Polen" is Poland in Swedish. I forgot it's not called the same in English.

I will look forward to those "clues". I'm rather fond of puzzles and games.
Click to expand...

I already gave away a lot of clues about where I live. Haha. :) With my location and my posts. Lol.
I am also fond of mysteries.. and stuff. It's fun!
 
Sometimes I preach in church, when all is well with my faith and my relationship with Jesus is good. During those moments I get thoughts I didn't know about, and when spoken out aloud, even I get to learn and listen to what I just said. It's like my brain works on a higher gear when I'm preaching. It's like it's not entirely my own thoughts all the time, and God shares some of his wisdom.

Those are the moments when I believe.
 
Oscillation said:
Sometimes I preach in church, when all is well with my faith and my relationship with Jesus is good. During those moments I get thoughts I didn't know about, and when spoken out aloud, even I get to learn and listen to what I just said. It's like my brain works on a higher gear when I'm preaching. It's like it's not entirely my own thoughts all the time, and God shares some of his wisdom.

Those are the moments when I believe.
Click to expand...

Some people need to be preached to. Some people need to preach. Everybody can arrive at the same destination by varying paths and each path is just as important as the destination. Finding your own path, one that works for you, is the key to making it where you want to go. If you want that deep belief and faith and you get it when you preach, you might consider preaching more often. Or maybe even teach Sunday school or whatever they call it in Sweden, being the teacher or facilitator of a class for either children or adults. You mentioned you are studying to become a teacher so I assume that this profession speaks to you already.

Oscillations are good if you think about it. Once you settle on one or the other you can be confident in yourself that you know the options and you chose the best one for you. It might be uncomfortable during the process but in a way it is a necessary process. Its self discovery and eventually settling on one of the two sides of the oscillation should be an easy choice to make.
 
Oscillation said:
Sometimes I preach in church, when all is well with my faith and my relationship with Jesus is good. During those moments I get thoughts I didn't know about, and when spoken out aloud, even I get to learn and listen to what I just said. It's like my brain works on a higher gear when I'm preaching. It's like it's not entirely my own thoughts all the time, and God shares some of his wisdom.

Those are the moments when I believe.
Click to expand...

See..!! Sometimes you just know it. You just know that He is speaking to you.. He works in our spiritual plane.
 
thirdhalf said:
Some people need to be preached to. Some people need to preach. Everybody can arrive at the same destination by varying paths and each path is just as important as the destination. Finding your own path, one that works for you, is the key to making it where you want to go. If you want that deep belief and faith and you get it when you preach, you might consider preaching more often. Or maybe even teach Sunday school or whatever they call it in Sweden, being the teacher or facilitator of a class for either children or adults. You mentioned you are studying to become a teacher so I assume that this profession speaks to you already.

Oscillations are good if you think about it. Once you settle on one or the other you can be confident in yourself that you know the options and you chose the best one for you. It might be uncomfortable during the process but in a way it is a necessary process. Its self discovery and eventually settling on one of the two sides of the oscillation should be an easy choice to make.
Click to expand...

It's more like I tend to preach when believing, and not believing when preaching, but perhaps it would work the other way around too. What do I know?

Oscillations are with no doubt good! I prefer doubting - oscillate - instead of being "certain" about something that isn't necessarily true. But doubts can be too much sometimes, when they seem to never end. I will never stop doubting, but the goal is to stop doubting about the same things over and over again. I want new things to doubt about, so that I can feel and see progress.

Progress is the key! For everyone, despite in what area.
 
I don't believe in any of it, so I doubt my input will be positively received.
 
JJJA said:
I don't believe in any of it, so I doubt my input will be positively received.
Click to expand...

I lived almost all my life discussion these topics with atheists and alike, and I have learned a lot from it. The truth is, these discussions are perhaps the moments when I've learned the most.
So even if I'm greatful for discussions with people of another opinion/belief, yes, you're probably right. 'Cause, you see, they have hurt me too...
So for this thread, I appreciate your kindness to not start a discussion.

But I would maybe engage in one in another thread were it doesn't get that personal.
 
Oscillation said:
Feelings are feelings - they come and go
Click to expand...

What I heard today from church.. (that might help)

Just few points:

1. If you read the bible, you will find a lot more logic than all the other books combined (Medicine, Philosophy etc.) because it was written for about 1500 years, 40 Authors, 61 prophecies fulfilled from Old Testament.. and it contains the secrets of the universe thus it needs to be analyzed, deciphered.. (it contains lots of hidden logic there).
2. The bible speaks about the Natural Law.. if we understand this law, we will get how God works and how He designed the Universe.
3. God will speak to you in the level of your faith. -(I personally love this!! This goes to what you quoted above; why feelings come and go..)


Also, I remembered you were asking about why tragedies happen etc. this is just my personal theory though..

1. The evil makes those tragedies happen.. he loves people suffer and the world should be balance (light and dark); the evil can have power over humans too. (God would never want His creations suffer)
2. God gave us free will right, so.. He commands us to be obedient but it still depends if we will truly obey or not.. so when we disobey; we can sabotage ourselves and in effect can cause our own punishments, illnesses, bad fate or death. (So basically we are the captain of our soul)

I hope this post helps. Just sharing few points.. :)
But always think that you are free to create your own beliefs; whatever works for you.. that brings you inner peace and happiness.
 
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Oscillation said:
I lived almost all my life discussion these topics with atheists and alike, and I have learned a lot from it. The truth is, these discussions are perhaps the moments when I've learned the most.
So even if I'm greatful for discussions with people of another opinion/belief, yes, you're probably right. 'Cause, you see, they have hurt me too...
So for this thread, I appreciate your kindness to not start a discussion.

But I would maybe engage in one in another thread were it doesn't get that personal.
Click to expand...

On the contrary, I think it is part of this discussion. Considering this discussion asks the important questions of belief systems. I think the following video explains SOME of the reasons I would give to refute religious, spiritual and superstitious claims, and why I call all of the above man-made. I do not want an argument out of this video. The video is simply here to showcase my views, and which may even try to open the minds of some that consider themselves lost in dilemma.

[video=youtube;U1lTR8V90qU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1lTR8V90qU[/video]
 
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