Oscillation(s) in belief

[Oscillation]

OSCILLATION(S) IN BELIEF
* * * INTRODUCTION * * * ​

Even though this thread is posted in the "philosophy and religion" forum, you may as well consider it a front door to my life. I've questioned if I really should start this thread, if it will make any differens, but I have to talk so I might as well wright.

INFJ's, I appeal to your reputation for being friendly and insightful.
Others, I appeal to your friendliness and insight.

Is there really a god/gods/spirits? I was born and raised in a swedish christian family, wich probably means more than you think. Sweden is one of the most secular states in the world, and being christian in those circumstances isn't always easy. On the other hand we're probably not "as christian" as other due to the fact that even we - the swedish christians - are somewhat secular. Atleast the most of them - yes, "them", because you see, first off I not entirely sure I'm christian... and I'm not entirely sure I'm secular. Sometimes I say "them" and sometimes I say "us". I've got oscillations in belief.

These oscillations are getting to wear me out, as I've pretty much have had them all my life. Although I've experienced quite a lot - miracles, profetic words, answeres to prayers, etc. - I cannot help but lack the motivation to play it "all in". There are always these questions. "If you're there, God, why is there...?" like questions. And then there is this frustration about my fellow christians (most of them) lack of intelligens, and my fellow non-christians (again, most of them) lack of... intelligens. I find both sides being mostly stuck in their own opinion. Wich is why I suffer from disbelief altogether, because I often lack an opinion. So their "lack of intelligens" is my lack of opinion, so you could start questioning wich one of us really are the intelligent ones.

When I say that others lack intelligens, I don't really mean it. It's just a way to express the ever so often frustration I've got that noone is able to understand one and other, whilest I stand like a fool in the middle unable to pick sides. I don't really call them unintelligent aloud, just in text...

That'll be the introduction for this thread.
We'll see if there will be any more posts.

 

[thirdhalf]

Sounds like you are searching for option #3... Once you split a belief into a black and white, one or the other, full belief or full lack of belief type of thing it is only then you are even able to oscillate between them. There really is no requirement to be 'all in' or 'all out' except in your own mind, I've found the grey area inbetween to be a very enjoyable place to be since I don't have to adhere to anything except what I want to.

Beliefs, especially religious ones (Christians and Muslims and atheists alike), tend to stratify into an all in or all out type of model. There are deep psychological reasons for this, and the oscillations that you are feeling are the basis of what encourages some people to go out and start their own belief system, that option #3. Many of the sects of Christianity were started much this same way.

 

[Oscillation]

Sounds like you are searching for option #3... Once you split a belief into a black and white, one or the other, full belief or full lack of belief type of thing it is only then you are even able to oscillate between them. There really is no requirement to be 'all in' or 'all out' except in your own mind, I've found the grey area inbetween to be a very enjoyable place to be since I don't have to adhere to anything except what I want to.

Beliefs, especially religious ones (Christians and Muslims and atheists alike), tend to stratify into an all in or all out type of model. There are deep psychological reasons for this, and the oscillations that you are feeling are the basis of what encourages some people to go out and start their own belief system, that option #3. Many of the sects of Christianity were started much this same way.

Good point!

But logically there are still an "either or" necessity, when it comes to the bits and pieces. The struggle of thought I'm having is not so much about religions as a package as separate questions about life. Besides, I'm not up to create my own hand made belief just as I please, but rather search for the truth. What's the point of believing in something you know is man-made? Not to say that that's what you've done tough. Just thinking out loud.

But you got a point, and I must say that I also enjoy this "gray world", as long as it's following the truth and not my own will. Then there's this though question about "what is truth", and you'll find out that at some point you have to believe what you want, just because we all unable to se anything other then the world in our own eyes.

But that's too deep! Let's not wander off (atleast for now).

 

[Oscillation]

I would love others to ask me specifik questions (teological/religious) instead of myself trying to - it's tough to answere your own questions, it ends up you not asking any.

 

[thirdhalf]

Good point!

But logically there are still an "either or" necessity, when it comes to the bits and pieces. The struggle of thought I'm having is not so much about religions as a package as separate questions about life. Besides, I'm not up to create my own hand made belief just as I please, but rather search for the truth. What's the point of believing in something you know is man-made? Not to say that that's what you've done tough. Just thinking out loud.

But you got a point, and I must say that I also enjoy this "gray world", as long as it's following the truth and not my own will. Then there's this though question about "what is truth", and you'll find out that at some point you have to believe what you want, just because we all unable to se anything other then the world in our own eyes.

But that's too deep! Let's not wander off (atleast for now).

The truth you find in your search is in effect your own hand made belief. Your choice to adhere to either it or a more socially created and held belief.

The need for an "either or" necessity is yours and I would say is not a requirement. Belief systems tend to be structured around exclusivity, that cannot be true because this is true. Once you remove the exclusivity from the global scope and put it into the scope and context of a single person what that other person believes and what that other person thinks you *should* believe no longer really matters and has zero context as to what you believe. That can be true, and this can also be true, because that is true to you and this is true to me.

Humans have a need to have answers for things. Belief in a religion is a way that many use to answer questions that are not yet answerable in other ways or the answers from those other ways are not appealing enough to want to believe. As time passes, science answers more of those questions and at the same time religions evolve and accepts some of these scientific answers into their own belief systems, and sometimes they don't.

I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.
-Heinlein

 

[thirdhalf]

I would love others to ask me specifik questions (teological/religious) instead of myself trying to - it's tough to answere your own questions, it ends up you not asking any.

1. Which intelligins are the Christians and non-Christains you mentioned lacking? Why are they lacking them? Are they really truly lacking them?
2. What specifically causes you to doubt your Christian beliefs?
3. What are you looking for? A definitive answer? A different answer?
4. Do you need to "pick a side" in order to find inner peace?
5. Are you looking for your own personal truth, or are you looking to "pick a side"?
6. Does it matter? Do these oscillations make you unhappy in such a way that you are trying to make them stop? Or are you content with your oscillations and do not seek to stop them?
7. What is the answer to life the universe and everything?

 

[Oscillation]

I don't think I've fully succeeded to explain myself. Much of what you're writing about I've already thought about, but I find it difficult to put down in words - thank you for putting it down in words for me :w:
But I also find you're thoughts being a little too relativistic for me.


Perhaps I would be easier for me to put it down in a few statements:

(1) I believe in an absolute truth.
(2) Logically no one fully know this Truth, except being the Truth itself.
(3) Therefore we can say we believe we know the Truth despite believing differently, but there still is only one Truth.
(4) A belief can be either closer or further away from Truth than another.
(5) Sometimes it's just a matter of "language", and we are all talking about the same aspect, just in different words.
etc.

And I'm talking about both religion and science. Ultimately they are the same thing - a search for truth. I'm not in search for a religion - christianity, islam, atheism - but I'm searching for truth. As I stand right now, christianity is where I've grown up, and I find it most logical to search within this "realm"/"system" of beliefs, as there would be no chance that I could search in all of the worlds beliefs and faiths. I might as well start dig where I stand, right?

 

[Oscillation]

1. Which intelligins are the Christians and non-Christains you mentioned lacking? Why are they lacking them? Are they really truly lacking them?
2. What specifically causes you to doubt your Christian beliefs?
3. What are you looking for? A definitive answer? A different answer?
4. Do you need to "pick a side" in order to find inner peace?
5. Are you looking for your own personal truth, or are you looking to "pick a side"?
6. Does it matter? Do these oscillations make you unhappy in such a way that you are trying to make them stop? Or are you content with your oscillations and do not seek to stop them?
7. What is the answer to life the universe and everything?

1. Which intelligins are the Christians and non-Christains you mentioned lacking? Why are they lacking them? Are they really truly lacking them?
Many christian friends of mine don't even understand the fundamental principal about science, and still they reject much of what's found in fields of physics and biology that - they think - go against the bible. It truely only goes against their own view of the world. Or is it me who just twists the bible into my own perpective?
Then I have many non-Christian friends who do not understand that the science we have today is a faith based on the axiom that there is no god, and that there are many, many stories that actually points to something more than a materialistic worldview. If they just would listen, both of them!
2. What specifically causes you to doubt your Christian beliefs?
Loneliness...
Perhaps I don't doubt, really. I just don't stand being lonely.

I will answere this question seperatly later on.
3. What are you looking for? A definitive answer? A different answer?
Definite, hmm. I don't think there would ever be an definite answere for man, as answere to "life the universe and everything", but yes I would love some definite answeres. But then you could start question if that's really what I want, or if there's just an underlying longing for something else. Love, perhaps.
4. Do you need to "pick a side" in order to find inner peace?
Not between different faiths, no.
5. Are you looking for your own personal truth, or are you looking to "pick a side"?
Truth, the big one, not my own and not others. But, as I've already stated in the previous post, we cannot fully see Truth, and therefore I will have to stick to what I believe.
6. Does it matter? Do these oscillations make you unhappy in such a way that you are trying to make them stop? Or are you content with your oscillations and do not seek to stop them?
I don't seak to stop them, no, but I would love to be able to find something lasting, something that doesn't drop dead to the ground as soon as I oscillate.
Hard to explain! It's more of a feeling than a thought.
7. What is the answer to life the universe and everything?
42
Haha! :lol:

 

[thirdhalf]

1. Which intelligins are the Christians and non-Christains you mentioned lacking? Why are they lacking them? Are they really truly lacking them?
Many christian friends of mine don't even understand the fundamental principal about science, and still they reject much of what's found in fields of physics and biology that - they think - go against the bible. It truely only goes against their own view of the world. Or is it me who just twists the bible into my own perpective?
Then I have many non-Christian friends who do not understand that the science we have today is a faith based on the axiom that there is no god, and that there are many, many stories that actually points to something more than a materialistic worldview. If they just would listen, both of them!

Everybody who believes in the bible twists it into their own perspective. Until every human being is 100% identical, each and every perspective will be slightly different and twisted to their own personal desires and needs.

Does each sides adherence to their own belief in spite of facts that proves otherwise bother you? Does it cause the uncomfortable feeling with your own beliefs?

2. What specifically causes you to doubt your Christian beliefs?
Loneliness...
Perhaps I don't doubt, really. I just don't stand being lonely.
I will answere this question seperatly later on.
3. What are you looking for? A definitive answer? A different answer?
Definite, hmm. I don't think there would ever be an definite answere for man, as answere to "life the universe and everything", but yes I would love some definite answeres. But then you could start question if that's really what I want, or if there's just an underlying longing for something else. Lover, perhaps.

Trying to fill a desire for a lover and their company with the benefits of a belief system is like a shoving a square peg in a round hole.. Can be done but doesn't necessarily fit well.

If you had a lover, would you have these doubts? What if your lover had different religious beliefs then your own?

4. Do you need to "pick a side" in order to find inner peace?
Not between different faiths, no.

Between what in particular then, if not different faiths?
Where does your comfortableness in-between the different sides come from? Each side not being able to see the others?

6. Does it matter? Do these oscillations make you unhappy in such a way that you are trying to make them stop? Or are you content with your oscillations and do not seek to stop them?
I don't seak to stop them, no, but I would love to be able to find something lasting, something that doesn't drop dead to the ground as soon as I oscillate.
Hard to explain! It's more of a feeling than a thought.

Is having a solid belief similar in feeling to a safe place? Something to retreat to for comfort, for safety? Something to draw on for strength? Or is it something different?

7. What is the answer to life the universe and everything?
42
Haha! :lol:

Its the damn questions that get you eh? Answers are easy.

 

[Skarekrow]

​

​

This is very similar to my thread and my own searchings for either a meaning or a reason why/how certain things could have happened (like you said about “miracles” but I would venture to throw paranormal in that category too..at least for me).
This will have to be YOUR journey…yes, you can adhere to the teachings of this religion or that Guru…but ultimately I find my own heart is the best judge as to whether or not something could be even considered a “truth”.
It’s hard to break through the religious dogmatic red-tape and find real answers for yourself.
Let me know if I can help you explore a certain region…chances are I have some good articles for you to read..hehe.

 

[Oscillation]

* * * WHY DOUBT? * * *​

After giving it some thought, I think that my "doubt" isn't so much a doubt in specific statements. It's more of a frustration about my unability to let faith have it consequenses in my life. If I believe that God hears my prayers - why don't I pray? If God really are omnipresent - why don't I live like he is? etc. You might aswell say that my doubt is more of a doubt in myself than a doubt in gods, but to say nothing more would be to make it too simple.

I have had periods in life when God is more present in my mind, and in a way I have felt "more christian" (even though I know "being christian" has nothing to do with how you feel about it). These moments have allmost allways ended when I realize my own inability to live a christian life - not moraly, but mentally! - and slowly I've "given up". There are these thoughts "I should be doing this..." and "it should be like....", and ultimately a lot of oughts. No one will ever stand a life of too much oughts (do I use the word "oughts" correctly?). And then you loose interest, and God gets the punishment. Childish!

Then when you stop thinking about God and such, there is a chance you'll forget it all together, and perhaps you even start to doubt in specific statements aswell. The only problem is that you forget that God has been doing awesome things in your life, as a "proof" of his/her existens (not really proof, as there is no proof of anything).

Perhaps it's also a good point to ask what I doubt.

 

[Skarekrow]

* * * WHY DOUBT? * * *​

After giving it some thought, I think that my "doubt" isn't so much a doubt in specific statements. It's more of a frustration about my unability to let faith have it consequenses in my life. If I believe that God hears my prayers - why don't I pray? If God really are omnipresent - why don't I live like he is? etc. You might aswell say that my doubt is more of a doubt in myself than a doubt in gods, but to say nothing more would be to make it too simple.

I have had periods in life when God is more present in my mind, and in a way I have felt "more christian" (even though I know "being christian" has nothing to do with how you feel about it). These moments have allmost allways ended when I realize my own inability to live a christian life - not moraly, but mentally! - and slowly I've "given up". There are these thoughts "I should be doing this..." and "it should be like....", and ultimately a lot of oughts. No one will ever stand a life of too much oughts (do I use the word "oughts" correctly?). And then you loose interest, and God gets the punishment. Childish!

Then when you stop thinking about God and such, there is a chance you'll forget it all together, and perhaps you even start to doubt in specific statements aswell. The only problem is that you forget that God has been doing awesome things in your life, as a "proof" of his/her existens (not really proof, as there is no proof of anything).

Perhaps it's also a good point to ask what I doubt.

You heart hopes…or some would say “knows”, that there is more than just what meets the eyes.
But the rational mind that has been taught to see things as material says “bullshit”.
It’s a battle.

 

[INFJ16]

* * * WHY DOUBT? * * *​

After giving it some thought, I think that my "doubt" isn't so much a doubt in specific statements. It's more of a frustration about my unability to let faith have it consequenses in my life. If I believe that God hears my prayers - why don't I pray? If God really are omnipresent - why don't I live like he is? etc. You might aswell say that my doubt is more of a doubt in myself than a doubt in gods, but to say nothing more would be to make it too simple.

I have had periods in life when God is more present in my mind, and in a way I have felt "more christian" (even though I know "being christian" has nothing to do with how you feel about it). These moments have allmost allways ended when I realize my own inability to live a christian life - not moraly, but mentally! - and slowly I've "given up". There are these thoughts "I should be doing this..." and "it should be like....", and ultimately a lot of oughts. No one will ever stand a life of too much oughts (do I use the word "oughts" correctly?). And then you loose interest, and God gets the punishment. Childish!

Then when you stop thinking about God and such, there is a chance you'll forget it all together, and perhaps you even start to doubt in specific statements aswell. The only problem is that you forget that God has been doing awesome things in your life, as a "proof" of his/her existens (not really proof, as there is no proof of anything).

Perhaps it's also a good point to ask what I doubt.

There you go. Why not start doing those things you believe you should be doing then?

 

[thirdhalf]

* * * WHY DOUBT? * * *​

After giving it some thought, I think that my "doubt" isn't so much a doubt in specific statements. It's more of a frustration about my unability to let faith have it consequenses in my life. If I believe that God hears my prayers - why don't I pray? If God really are omnipresent - why don't I live like he is? etc. You might aswell say that my doubt is more of a doubt in myself than a doubt in gods, but to say nothing more would be to make it too simple.

Nothing wrong with any of that if that's your truth. But if its not, you might consider letting your truth shine..such as letting your faith have its proper consequences in your life or whatever else it might be.

No one will ever stand a life of too much oughts (do I use the word "oughts" correctly?).

Yes, used correctly. Not commonly used in my part of the English speaking world but in a way it makes it endearing and more meaningful.

 

[Skarekrow]

[MENTION=13285]Oscillation[/MENTION]

Concerning “faith”.
I have found it to be a truth that one doesn’t need to have absolute and powerful faith for it to happen…just the honest desire for it.
That is what makes all the difference IMO.

 

[Oscillation]

Does each sides adherence to their own belief in spite of facts that proves otherwise bother you? Does it cause the uncomfortable feeling with your own beliefs?

To some extent it bothers me that they are more keen to listen to their lie then to the logical truth, yes, because it bothers me that I with certanty are doing the same ting.

Trying to fill a desire for a lover and their company with the benefits of a belief system is like a shoving a square peg in a round hole.. Can be done but doesn't necessarily fit well.

Sorry! I ment to write "love", not "lover".

 

[Oscillation]

You heart hopes…or some would say “knows”, that there is more than just what meets the eyes.
But the rational mind that has been taught to see things as material says “bullshit”.
It’s a battle.

But why is the rational mind thinking "bullshit" in the first place?

There you go. Why not start doing those things you believe you should be doing then?

Because I can't do things I don't see the point in doing. For me, there has to be a purpose, and hopfully with a rational explanation.

Nothing wrong with any of that if that's your truth. But if its not, you might consider letting your truth shine..such as letting your faith have its proper consequences in your life or whatever else it might be.

I do not fully understand what you're trying to say here.

Yes, used correctly. Not commonly used in my part of the English speaking world but in a way it makes it endearing and more meaningful.

Thank you! It's hard to think in an other language. Thank God for Google Translate to help me find synonymes.

Concerning “faith”.
I have found it to be a truth that one doesn’t need to have absolute and powerful faith for it to happen…just the honest desire for it.
That is what makes all the difference IMO.

Yes, I know. But I'm not even sure the desire for it is there at all times.

Could you please tell me if there is some differenses in "faith" and "belief"? I'm not sure if I'm using the words correctly all the time.
(Please, correct my grammar and such, as I wish to make myself as clear as possible).

 

[Breathlessangel]

You want to find the truth but mostly truth aren't accessible especially when it comes to Religion and God.
It's a personal journey!! You should ask yourself.. where do you think you belong?
It doesn't matter if its black, white, or grey.
If you channel all your questions to your environment.. you'll get lost and confused.
Reflect internally.. and supply your own answers because the Universe will never speak its secrets to us.
Certain things should remain as "secrets of the universe" and no matter how much we ponder them
and go looking for the truth.. we'll still die pondering.
If you want to reach a certain point of closure.. be honest to yourself and don't listen to the people around you or
to the environment who molded you as a Christian. FAITH is like a strong force that holds believers from non-believers.
But having faith although can be influenced by your environment.. the teachings are only like a seed planted on you.
Its still all up to you.. if your mind and soul will nurture it. I'm religious (or spiritual maybe the right term)
and it's hard to explain it to those who didn't experience it firsthand.
I just know that there is a Higher Force.. and I call Him God or the Universe.
But, I don't really believe in religions though.
I think its just a home/house and what always matters is your relationship with God.
So if you think you don't have that in you. (I'm referring to faith)
then you will definitely struggle believing in His existence.

 

[Oscillation]

Rational is a good word. Much better than logic or intelligens, I find.
I'm not questioning the intelligens of others! I'm questioning their rationality, as I wish to belief in a rational God! I want explanaitions as far as there are some. I know there are some things we cannot understand, but just give me an explanation that's rational for why that is true.

One rational statment is for example that God is a higher-dimension being, so it would be impossible to understand everything about God, since we are restricted to our dimensional thinking. Therefore we cannot fully understand how God can be at several places and times at "the same time". Rational!

But what implantation has it in regular life?

 

[Skarekrow]

But why is the rational mind thinking "bullshit" in the first place?

Because I can't do things I don't see the point in doing. For me, there has to be a purpose, and hopfully with a rational explanation.

I do not fully understand what you're trying to say here.

Thank you! It's hard to think in an other language. Thank God for Google Translate to help me find synonymes.

Yes, I know. But I'm not even sure the desire for it is there at all times.

Could you please tell me if there is some differenses in "faith" and "belief"? I'm not sure if I'm using the words correctly all the time.
(Please, correct my grammar and such, as I wish to make myself as clear as possible).

The more rationally you try to delve into subjects like the nature of consciousness and the meaning of life the less and less tangible and the more and more you will have to rely on some form on "informed faith” for lack of a better term.
You will have to find that balance within yourself.
My mind seems to think along very similar patterns to yours…I WANT the scientific explanations for some of the things that I have experienced and others I believe could be true…but a happy medium must be struck somewhere along the way…if you let one side win you may be cynical, whereas to go fully in the other direction would not be being true to your logically questioning nature.
You just need that balance and it will fall into place.