Oscillation(s) in belief

[Breathlessangel]

You can't really apply a scientific approach or rational thinking when it comes to religion or faith or God.
There is no such thing as "Rational God". Only Spiritual God...
This is one strong example why a debate (that runs for decades or centuries and well, up to now)
between Scientists and Religious/Spiritual people never comes to a conclusion.
Faith is believing of something or someone your eyes can't see
or invisible from your naked eyes. Faith also has its intensity. Others have stronger faith
and so why miracles could happen. It's just a matter of believing.. if you believe then God is existing,
if not then He isn't existing in your eyes.
The thing is, it differs from one person to another.
So the answer.. or the truth you are searching for - spiritually speaking lies in you. Within you.
You are free to create your own beliefs. Whether you believe in God or not.. or in between.
(This is only my opinion and I respect our different views.)

 

[Oscillation]

The more rationally you try to delve into subjects like the nature of consciousness and the meaning of life the less and less tangible and the more and more you will have to rely on some form on "informed faith” for lack of a better term.
You will have to find that balance within yourself.
My mind seems to think along very similar patterns to yours…I WANT the scientific explanations for some of the things that I have experienced and others I believe could be true…but a happy medium must be struck somewhere along the way…if you let one side win you may be cynical, whereas to go fully in the other direction would not be being true to your logically questioning nature.
You just need that balance and it will fall into place.

Be careful, Skarekrow! I've noticed aswell that we pretty much think the same, and I'm afraid you could be my Guru... or devil, as I swallow every word you say (not really :w.
"With great power comes great responsibility".

 

[thirdhalf]

To some extent it bothers me that they are more keen to listen to their lie then to the logical truth, yes, because it bothers me that I with certanty are doing the same ting.

To them, it is not a lie. To believe in something regardless is almost the definition of faith.

..You don't have to do the same thing.

 

[Oscillation]

You can't apply a scientific approach or rational thinking when it comes to religion or faith or God.
There is no such thing as "Rational God" well- this is only my opinion.
This is one strong example why a debate (that runs for decades or well up to now)
between Scientists and Religious/Spiritual people never comes to a conclusion.
(This is only my opinion and I respect our different views.)
God is a Spiritual God.. and faith is believing of something or someone your eyes can't see
or invisible from your naked eyes. Faith also has its intensity. Others have stronger faith
whereas why miracles could happen. It's just a matter of believing.. if you believe then God is existing,
if not then He isn't existing in your eyes.

(Hum... how should I put this in english)
Yes, I understand what you're saying, and I agree, but you're missing one important aspect.

Science, as a form of empirism, have no problem with God. Materialism has, as it states that there is nothing more than materia. The problem is that most of todays science is built on materialism, to the degree that you could think they are the same thing, as I've done. So it's between materialism and faith the debate runs for decates, really, and not between science and God.

If God created the universe, then it's impossible that they should stand against eachother!

To be rational about faith is what I would call theology, and I want theology together with science. I want a rational mind, as I was given!

 

[Oscillation]

To them, it is not a lie. To believe in something regardless is almost the definition of faith.

..You don't have to do the same thing.

What I meant is just that - to be obilivious of oneselfs lie is to believe you are right.
I'm probably as obilivious as others.

But(!) as we all are facing the same problem, and there is nothing to do about it, we might as well stick to what we believe in. To stick to something we are not believing in wouldn't (IMO) be smart. So we all stick with our own belief, whatever that belief might be.

I have to stick to mine,
and you have to stick to yours.

The frustration comes when you clearly see that at a certain aspect a person are wrong, and you're unable to convince them. I only hope that I'm not as hard to convince as others.

 

[thirdhalf]

What I meant is just that - to be obilivious of oneselfs lie is to believe you are right.
I'm probably as obilivious as others.

But(!) as we all are facing the same problem, and there is nothing to do about it, we might as well stick to what we believe in. To stick to something we are not believing in wouldn't (IMO) be smart. So we all stick with our own belief, whatever that belief might be.

I have to stick to mine,
and you have to stick to yours.

The frustration comes when you clearly see that at a certain aspect a person are wrong, and you're unable to convince them. I only hope that I'm not as hard to convince as others.

Oblivious people do not question themselves, you are so I would say that you are not oblivious.

Who is to say you are right and they are wrong? Why must you convince them they are wrong? Is there harm in them believing what to you is a lie but to them is not and makes them happy?

 

[Skarekrow]

Be careful, Skarekrow! I've noticed aswell that we pretty much think the same, and I'm afraid you could be my Guru... or devil, as I swallow every word you say (not really :w.
"With great power comes great responsibility".

I wouldn’t make a good Guru…but that’s awfully kind.
Funny thing is…the more your mind compels you to ask “why?”…the more questions will arise.
It is the most frustrating conundrum.
It will frustrate you to tears…and I would like to say that when you come out the other side from discovering our hidden pathways in life that you will have some wise conclusion to make.
It’s hardly so bold…it’s very subtle and will also make you question if you are making ANY progress whatsoever.
You are…it takes a lifetime.

 

[Oscillation]

Who is to say you are right and they are wrong? Why must you convince them they are wrong? Is there harm in them believing what to you is a lie but to them is not and makes them happy?

Yes and no!
We are trying to convinde eachother everyday about what is right withing a system of rules and logics. If someone's driving against red, we're not just telling ourselfs "who am I to say they are wrong?", but we're refer to the rules of traffic as our sociaty is built on. Yes, in an other society they might be right, and in a greater spand of vision we could ask "who am I...?". That's because we are changing the system.

Given a certain system, and you are either right, or you're wrong, and it's when you're jumping between several systems it becomes difficult.

Given that this person is "working in the same system" as myself, yes I would correct them, as I hope they are correcting me. If we're not working inside the same system, then I probably wouldn't... "who am I to...?" Ultimately I believe in a universal system though - I just don't know everything about it, so I don't play the judge in the more difficult aspects.

When I see something is wrong, I correct it.
When I don't see if it's wrong or not, I don't correct it.
And I would assume you're doing the same, if you just think about it as broadly as you can (and not just about existential subjects).

 

[thirdhalf]

Yes and no!
We are trying to convinde eachother everyday about what is right withing a system of rules and logics. If someone's driving against red, we're not just telling ourselfs "who am I to say they are wrong?", but we're refer to the rules of traffic as our sociaty is built on. Yes, in an other society they might be right, and in a greater spand of vision we could ask "who am I...?". That's because we are changing the system.

Given a certain system, and you are either right, or you're wrong, and it's when you're jumping between several systems it becomes difficult.

Given that this person is "working in the same system" as myself, yes I would correct them, as I hope they are correcting me. If we're not working inside the same system, then I probably wouldn't... "who am I to...?" Ultimately I believe in a universal system though - I just don't know everything about it, so I don't play the judge in the more difficult aspects.

When I see something is wrong, I correct it.
When I don't see if it's wrong or not, I don't correct it.
And I would assume you're doing the same, if you just think about it as broadly as you can (and not just about existential subjects).

That is one of those oddities of any social construct or system, they are good for the group as a whole but not perfect for any specific individual in that group. The more exclusive that group is about consensus building the more attention that will be put towards the differences from the consensus in the group.

Do no harm. My system is inclusive and broad enough that not much warrants me correcting.

 

[INFJ16]

* * * WHY DOUBT? * * *​

After giving it some thought, I think that my "doubt" isn't so much a doubt in specific statements. It's more of a frustration about my unability to let faith have it consequenses in my life. If I believe that God hears my prayers - why don't I pray? If God really are omnipresent - why don't I live like he is? etc. You might aswell say that my doubt is more of a doubt in myself than a doubt in gods, but to say nothing more would be to make it too simple.

There you go. Why not start doing those things you believe you should be doing then?

Because I can't do things I don't see the point in doing. For me, there has to be a purpose, and hopfully with a rational explanation.

It was my understanding from your earlier statement (quoted above) that you do in fact see the point and purpose in doing these things; you want to act on your faith in God because you feel that you haven't thus far. Yes/No?

 

[Oscillation]

That is one of those oddities of any social construct or system, they are good for the group as a whole but not perfect for any specific individual in that group. The more exclusive that group is about consensus building the more attention that will be put towards the differences from the consensus in the group.

Do no harm. My system is inclusive and broad enough that not much warrants me correcting.

I'm not so fond of correcting either, but I'm prone to talk in ever general aspects so when I say I correct someone, it's probably in the "right situation", like teaching (I'm studying to become a teacher. I have to correct people, it's my job).

 

[Oscillation]

It was my understanding from your earlier statement (quoted above) that you do in fact see the point and purpose in doing these things; you want to act on your faith in God because you feel that you haven't thus far. Yes/No?

Well, I don't always see the point, and here in lies the oscillations in belief. One day I might see the point in it, and one day I don't. And the problem is that even though I know it "as a fact", it's a differens matter of knowing it by conviction.

It's hard to explain. Take environmental degradation as an example: we may know much about it, but it takes something more for us to begin to live lives that are good for the environment. We "know" the problem, but it's not really just to start doing it. We need a greater motivation, conviction.

I might be wrong though.

 

[sprinkles]

Just stay in the middle. It's a more fluid position. The further you commit in any direction, the further you have to back track if you find you don't agree with it after all.

It's kind of like staying back and in the middle while playing tennis - no matter where the ball goes you'll only have to run half the court to get it at most.

 

[Solongo]

you need to search for your own spirituality and this is a journey; whether it involves the christian group you are part of or without it. you will probably have to dissect your own beliefs and fundamental core values and if they don't align with your inner value then you can simply change and adjust your beliefs. the group only works as a mirror reflecting back to you; highlighting your beliefs and disbeliefs and only you can alter or change them to suit your life perspective.

 

[INFJ16]

Well, I don't always see the point, and here in lies the oscillations in belief. One day I might see the point in it, and one day I don't. And the problem is that even though I know it "as a fact", it's a differens matter of knowing it by conviction.

It's hard to explain. Take environmental degradation as an example: we may know much about it, but it takes something more for us to begin to live lives that are good for the environment. We "know" the problem, but it's not really just to start doing it. We need a greater motivation, conviction.

I might be wrong though.

I agree that 'knowing' something doesn't necessarily mean you feel a conviction about it.

Do you think the unrest and 'oscillations' you have been experiencing are because you are feeling the need to get to a place of conviction? If so, how do you expect or hope to get there?

 

[Oscillation]

Just stay in the middle. It's a more fluid position. The further you commit in any direction, the further you have to back track if you find you don't agree with it after all.

It's kind of like staying back and in the middle while playing tennis - no matter where the ball goes you'll only have to run half the court to get it at most.

Sometimes there is no middle choice. Whenever there are though, I tend to choose it.

you need to search for your own spirituality and this is a journey; whether it involves the christian group you are part of or without it. you will probably have to dissect your own beliefs and fundamental core values and if they don't align with your inner value then you can simply change and adjust your beliefs. the group only works as a mirror reflecting back to you; highlighting your beliefs and disbeliefs and only you can alter or change them to suit your life perspective.

Yepp! I've been on that road of journey for ten years now, and the dissection is one part of the oscillation I experience.

 

[sprinkles]

Sometimes there is no middle choice. Whenever there are though, I tend to choose it.

There's always a middle choice. And if there isn't one that means it's time to invent it.

 

[Oscillation]

Do you think the unrest and 'oscillations' you have been experiencing are because you are feeling the need to get to a place of conviction? If so, how do you expect or hope to get there?

Good question!
Yes, I do think there is a search of conviction going on inside, which is why I oscillate between opinions/beliefs/perspectives. But on the other hand I probably wouldn't settle down with a concrete belief such as a religion or philosophy with ready answers. What I mean is that there is a differens in believing in a certain religion, and taking everything for true in a certain religion just because I chose that religion. The same goes for philosophies. Not for axioms though, since axioms are... axioms, really. Anyhow!

How do I expect to get there? Hopefully by experience. I would like God to work with me a little more, talk a little more of his thoughts, be a little more visible. But that would probably not be God, right? I'm not sure what I want, to be honest. The road to conviction probably look different depending on what conviction you are looking for.

So what am I looking for?
A living God, a loving God.
A God that wants me...

(Or am I just lying to myself? Perhaps.)

 

[INFJ16]

Good question!
Yes, I do think there is a search of conviction going on inside, which is why I oscillate between opinions/beliefs/perspectives. But on the other hand I probably wouldn't settle down with a concrete belief such as a religion or philosophy with ready answers. What I mean is that there is a differens in believing in a certain religion, and taking everything for true in a certain religion just because I chose that religion. The same goes for philosophies. Not for axioms though, since axioms are... axioms, really. Anyhow!

How do I expect to get there? Hopefully by experience. I would like God to work with me a little more, talk a little more of his thoughts, be a little more visible. But that would probably not be God, right? I'm not sure what I want, to be honest. The road to conviction probably look different depending on what conviction you are looking for.

So what am I looking for?
A living God, a loving God.
A God that wants me...

(Or am I just lying to myself? Perhaps.)

I don't see you as lying to yourself. I do think you should keep working to resolve this. In what way do you want God to work with you a little more? If you want Christian answers, read the Bible (that's where he'll "talk a little more of his thoughts") and pray. Are you doing your part in the matter? Don't stop your searching or questioning. When you have doubts and questions, use them as opportunities to grow.

I'm a fan of Robert Frost so I'll throw in something he said which was, "To start doubting is the beginning of somebody's belief. His doubts help him in exploring the dimensions of belief in all possible directions."

 

[Oscillation]

I don't see you as lying to yourself. I do think you should keep working to resolve this. In what way do you want God to work with you a little more? If you want Christian answers, read the Bible (that's where he'll "talk a little more of his thoughts") and pray. Are you doing your part in the matter? Don't stop your searching or questioning. When you have doubts and questions, use them as opportunities to grow.

I'm a fan of Robert Frost so I'll throw in something he said which was, "To start doubting is the beginning of somebody's belief. His doubts help him in exploring the dimensions of belief in all possible directions."

I'm having difficulties praying these days... and the same goes for reading.
Some part of me doesn't want to find answers written in a book (bible) or hunches in my mind (prayer), but actual reality.

It's like I'm wondering of the road, to see if there are clues to find that points in the direction the road was heading anyway. "Of road" - will I find a language of God without the christian vocabulary? I'm contemplating about Abraham, how he must have known very little about any christian life all together, but still he was pretty close to God. If we met him as we are, we would probably think we didn't have much incommon.

Does my words make sense? I want to get off road to see if I can find God even there - 'cause he's everywhere - and then I probably find my way back again with a whole other perspective and maturity.