Oscillation(s) in belief | Page 4 | INFJ Forum

Oscillation(s) in belief

JJJA said:
On the contrary, I think it is part of this discussion. Considering this discussion asks the important questions of belief systems. I think the following video explains SOME of the reasons I would give to refute religious, spiritual and superstitious claims, and why I call all of the above man-made. I do not want an argument out of this video. The video is simply here to showcase my views, and which may even try to open the minds of some that consider themselves lost in dilemma.

[video=youtube;U1lTR8V90qU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1lTR8V90qU[/video]
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I've seen the video, some years ago. If I remember it right he only talks about how bad religion is because religious people do bad things.
He never actually tries to answer the question whether christianity is true or not. Just because something is bad doesn't mean it's not true.
But I might remember it wrong - maybe he talks about other things aswell.
 
Oscillation said:
I've seen the video, some years ago. If I remember it right he only talks about how bad religion is because religious people do bad things.
He never actually tries to answer the question whether christianity is true or not. Just because something is bad doesn't mean it's not true.
But I might remember it wrong - maybe he talks about other things aswell.
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I have watched it, and it turns out it wasn't the video as I though it was - still the same man though!
And I still thinks he doesn't quit give the topic a real chance, but just brings his opinions wrapped up in fancy (and wise) words.

Consider this: the god he speaks of, I do not believe in.
So in fact, he doesn't speaks against God, but foolish peoples ways of thinking.
 
Breathlessangel said:
What I heard today from church.. (that might help)

Just few points:

1. If you read the bible, you will find a lot more logic than all the other books combined (Medicine, Philosophy etc.) because it was written for about 1500 years, 40 Authors, 61 prophecies fulfilled from Old Testament.. and it contains the secrets of the universe thus it needs to be analyzed, deciphered.. (it contains lots of hidden logic there).
2. The bible speaks about the Natural Law.. if we understand this law, we will get how God works and how He designed the Universe.
3. God will speak to you in the level of your faith. -(I personally love this!! This goes to what you quoted above; why feelings come and go..)


Also, I remembered you were asking about why tragedies happen etc. this is just my personal theory though..

1. The evil makes those tragedies happen.. he loves people suffer and the world should be balance (light and dark); the evil can have power over humans too. (God would never want His creations suffer)
2. God gave us free will right, so.. He commands us to be obedient but it still depends if we will truly obey or not.. so when we disobey; we can sabotage ourselves and in effect can cause our own punishments, illnesses, bad fate or death. (So basically we are the captain of our soul)

I hope this post helps. Just sharing few points.. :)
But always think that you are free to create your own beliefs; whatever works for you.. that brings you inner peace and happiness.
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Thanks, brethlessangle!
I think that for me these answers are a bit too simple, maybe just because I seek more complex answer - as we have already noted. For me the Bible is not a "magic" book, and theodicy is not a easy (logical) problem to address. I've noticed that the answer you gave, which I encountered in the past and I myself lean against, not always are well met by non-believers. That doesn't have to be a problem, of course, since they're non-believers... but I would like to find an answer that atleast would make any sense to even them (as for myself). I probably won't find "the answer" that suits everone though, and I'm not trying to look for it. Just a "good" answer...
 
I don't think she meant that the Bible is a "magic book." To me it's more like a multi-perspective Philosophy book. Or maybe an anthology of works which are mostly metaphorical. If you search through other world scriptures as well, you might find that a lot of concepts from different faiths somewhat agree.

As to Theodicy... well, the 'existence' of evil (in my belief) is more of a shadow. Meaning, it has no existence in itself, but rather an effect of the lack/absence of 'something existent.' An illusory effect, like a mirage.

Now you might ask, if they say God is omnipresent, why would there be an 'absence' of It (God), thus creating the idea of evil? I think it is not God which becomes absent in reality. Rather, evil seems to 'appear' because of a barrier or inadequacy in the faculty of our perception.

Also, I do not equate Spirituality with Religion. For me, Spirituality is the quest for Truth. Most of the time, Religion creates its own belief, calls it truth, and forcefully feeds it to their followers. Spirituality is more of an intuitive search rather than a dogmatic practice.

Just trying to share some insight. If you may call it that. :D
Don't over-analyze though, and allow some things to just 'dawn on you'. Or you might go :boom:
(I could definitely use this advice too. I think my brain is already fried.)
 
Satori said:
Don't over-analyze though, and allow some things to just 'dawn on you'. Or you might go :boom:
(I could definitely use this advice too. I think my brain is already fried.)
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Isn't it strange that it is so much easier to give advice for others than yourself? I would probably give the same advice to others that you just gave me.
 
Oscillation said:
Isn't it strange that it is so much easier to give advice for others than yourself? I would probably give the same advice to others that you just gave me.
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In a way, giving advice is reaffirming what you believe to yourself by way of sharing what you believe. We are all very social creatures.
 
thirdhalf said:
In a way, giving advice is reaffirming what you believe to yourself by way of sharing what you believe. We are all very social creatures.
Click to expand...

Social creatures we are, indeed!
 
When I doubt, it's a doubt in the claim of christianity that this world is not what it's supposed to be, that we ought to strive towards the "ideal world" and that God finally is going to change it. This goes for both our very nature and the world at a whole: it's supposed to be something it's not.

Wherest the atheists answer is "there is no 'supposed to'", and it makes sense - when I don't believe, that is.

"What about suffering? Homosexuality? Greed? Poverty? Sickness?"
"It's not supposed to be that way."

"There is no 'supposed to'."
It is what it is.
 
Oscillation said:
"There is no 'supposed to'."[/I]
It is what it is.
Click to expand...

In the big picture, I too, believe in 'It is what it is.'
However, in the fact that there appears to be something 'wrong,' I think we must consider a different perspective.

Are you familiar with this popular Buddhist teaching about the 'snake rope'?
If you're not: Basically it's about a monk who has mistaken a coil of rope to be a snake from a distance.
Because of this, he became afraid and stuck where he was. Until he realizes the snake is actually just a rope.
Then he realizes, his fear was only for something illusory. And then he was relieved.

So, how is this relevant to the topic?
In reality, the rope 'is what it is.' It's just a rope.
In the mind of the monk however, it was a snake, and caused him fear and panic.
Of course, it wasn't his 'ideal' situation.
And so, from his point of view, he'd rather that 'the snake is supposed to be' something else.
When really, there's no snake, thus no 'supposed to be' to begin with, cause it's actually just a rope.
In order to see this underlying Truth (God-perspective), he needed to make his vision clear.
That's only when he realizes 'what is' and lets go of his unnecessary fear.

So in the claim that we must strive to be in an ideal world,
I think it just means that we must see with 'new eyes.'
 
Satori said:
In the big picture, I too, believe in 'It is what it is.'
However, in the fact that there appears to be something 'wrong,' I think we must consider a different perspective.

Are you familiar with this popular Buddhist teaching about the 'snake rope'?
If you're not: Basically it's about a monk who has mistaken a coil of rope to be a snake from a distance.
Because of this, he became afraid and stuck where he was. Until he realizes the snake is actually just a rope.
Then he realizes, his fear was only for something illusory. And then he was relieved.

So, how is this relevant to the topic?
In reality, the rope 'is what it is.' It's just a rope.
In the mind of the monk however, it was a snake, and caused him fear and panic.
Of course, it wasn't his 'ideal' situation.
And so, from his point of view, he'd rather that 'the snake is supposed to be' something else.
When really, there's no snake, thus no 'supposed to be' to begin with, cause it's actually just a rope.
In order to see this underlying Truth (God-perspective), he needed to make his vision clear.
That's only when he realizes 'what is' and lets go of his unnecessary fear.

So in the claim that we must strive to be in an ideal world,
I think it just means that we must see with 'new eyes.'
Click to expand...

Well said!
If I understood you correctly, and if I may continue, the world is what it is, but it's not what we see it as - and that goes for both religious, spiritual and secular point of view!
 
Yup! Precisely. :wink:
 
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Those with high standards have low...?
 
Instead of a Show (Jon Foreman)
[video=youtube;UihssQZoUd4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UihssQZoUd4[/video]

Lyrics
I hate all your show and pretense
The hypocrisy of your praise
The hypocrisy of your festivals
I hate all your show
Away with your noisy worship
Away with your noisy hymns
I stomp on my ears when you're singing 'em
I hate all your show

Instead let there be a flood of justice
An endless procession of righteous living, living
Instead let there be a flood of justice
Instead of a show

Your eyes are closed when you're praying
You sing right along with the band
You shine up your shoes for services
There's blood on your hands
You turned your back on the homeless
And the ones that don't fit in your plan
Quit playing religion games
There's blood on your hands

Instead let there be a flood of justice
An endless procession of righteous living, living
Instead let there be a flood of justice
Instead of a show
I hate all your show

Let's argue this out
If your sins are blood red
Let's argue this out
You'll be one of the clouds
Let's argue this out
Quit fooling around
Give love to the ones who can't love at all
Give hope to the ones who got no hope at all
Stand up for the ones who can't stand at all, all
I hate all your show
I hate all your show
I hate all your show
I hate all your show

Instead let there be a flood of justice
An endless procession of righteous living, living
Instead let there be a flood of justice
Instead of a show
I hate all your show
Isaiah 1:11-18

11 "The multitude of your sacrifices–
what are they to me?" says the LORD.
"I have more than enough of burnt offerings,
of rams and the fat of fattened animals;
I have no pleasure
in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.

12 When you come to appear before me,
who has asked this of you,
this trampling of my courts?

13 Stop bringing meaningless offerings!
Your incense is detestable to me.
New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations–
I cannot bear your evil assemblies.


14 Your New Moon festivals and your appointed feasts
my soul hates.
They have become a burden to me;
I am weary of bearing them.

15 When you spread out your hands in prayer,
I will hide my eyes from you;
even if you offer many prayers,
I will not listen.
Your hands are full of blood;

16 wash and make yourselves clean.
Take your evil deeds
out of my sight!
Stop doing wrong,
17 learn to do right!
Seek justice,
encourage the oppressed.
Defend the cause of the fatherless,
plead the case of the widow.

18 "Come now, let us reason together,"
says the LORD.
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.​
 
Excerpts from a Swedish Christian newspaper (translated by Google Translate):

The most serious conflict between evolution and the Bible is the Christian Gospel. If human death isn't a consequence of sin, but death is a mechanism of God's creation, does this question Jesus salvation deed. Romans 5: 12-21 speaks of human death entered the world through Adam's sin and that Jesus corrected this problem by dying for the sins and conquered death through his resurrection. However, if human death was not the wages of sin (Romans 6:23), but a mechanism of God's creation, what was it that Jesus put right through his death and his life?
Source: http://www.dagen.se/debatt/alternativ-till-evolutionsl%C3%A4ran-1.373806

This troubles me. What is the nature of death?
 
Oscillation said:
Excerpts from a Swedish Christian newspaper (translated by Google Translate):

The most serious conflict between evolution and the Bible is the Christian Gospel. If human death isn't a consequence of sin, but death is a mechanism of God's creation, does this question Jesus salvation deed. Romans 5: 12-21 speaks of human death entered the world through Adam's sin and that Jesus corrected this problem by dying for the sins and conquered death through his resurrection. However, if human death was not the wages of sin (Romans 6:23), but a mechanism of God's creation, what was it that Jesus put right through his death and his life?
Source: http://www.dagen.se/debatt/alternativ-till-evolutionsl%C3%A4ran-1.373806

This troubles me. What is the nature of death?
Click to expand...

In answer to the newspaper: by setting an example of meekness and selflessness for others to aspire to be. There is a lot of deep wisdom to be found in the Bible (and all other religious texts) but you have to read in a non literal way.

The nature of death? It is the end of what you know and the beginning of what you don't.
 
thirdhalf said:
In answer to the newspaper: by setting an example of meekness and selflessness for others to aspire to be. There is a lot of deep wisdom to be found in the Bible (and all other religious texts) but you have to read in a non literal way.

The nature of death? It is the end of what you know and the beginning of what you don't.
Click to expand...

But Jesus doesn't claim to be a good philosopher, but the Son of God, the Messiah and the one who sets things right between God and man. What rational understanding and the bible tells us about the nature of death - why it exists - are different from eachother. So if the bible is wrong about death, how could it be right about life? Or is perhaps the bible not talking about death as we think it is? Hummm.
 
Oscillation said:
But Jesus doesn't claim to be a good philosopher, but the Son of God, the Messiah and the one who sets things right between God and man. What rational understanding and the bible tells us about the nature of death - why it exists - are different from eachother. So if the bible is wrong about death, how could it be right about life? Or is perhaps the bible not talking about death as we think it is? Hummm.
Click to expand...

What better to aspire to then a humble man who just so happens to be the Messiah and the son of God?

Who is to say that the Bible is wrong even if it is at times contradicting? Try to see past what the Bible tells you and instead see what it means.
 
Oscillation said:
But Jesus doesn't claim to be a good philosopher, but the Son of God, the Messiah and the one who sets things right between God and man. What rational understanding and the bible tells us about the nature of death - why it exists - are different from eachother. So if the bible is wrong about death, how could it be right about life? Or is perhaps the bible not talking about death as we think it is? Hummm.
Click to expand...

When standing and looking at a beautiful sunset, do you notice the scene as a whole? How the sun looks on the horizon with its deep orange and the colors bouncing off the clouds? How all of the trees and water reflect the light in ways that almost seem surreal? The quietness of nature going to sleep for the night? Do you take that in as a whole, all of the individual parts playing a huge part but they all so much belong to the whole scene that it is like that no one thing exists by itself and it is all bound as one singular thing together? The beauty of one cannot exist without the beauty of the other nor could either exist without belonging to the whole scene?

Or do you try to assemble the picture of the whole from all of the individual parts you see and try to infer the beauty of the whole from the sum of its parts? If you do this you will never see the whole scene for what it is because you are too busy looking for details.

Belief and faith is about feeling the whole picture and using the details to understand it, not using the details to try assemble and find the whole picture.
 
I still believe in God. I just don't feel as if he's caring whether I do or not. What difference will it make?
 
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