Conflicts between Enneagram and MBTI type? | Page 2 | INFJ Forum

Conflicts between Enneagram and MBTI type?

Wewt! 9 even says you can still be successful, even a leader, you're just not "bossy" leader grabbing all the cash and glory, merely the guy at the top delegating. Sounds so nice...
I think though I'd need either heavy distraction or a lobotomy to ever calm down that much though. Or maybe find that solid foundation that the 6's seem to need but couldn't get.

And @Indy, yeah, does seem to be largely negative. Even the positives are done in a "Heres the good part, BUT, it's secretly another layer of bad". I'm not a fan of enneagram so much, now.
 
Hmm. IIRC the enneagram is in line with the same school of thought that recommends we 'overcome the ego', so I would guess that anything ego-related (i.e. the entire enneagram) would appear negative in that regard. THough it may just be that the site I'm getting my information from deals with a lot of spiritual-meditative types.
 
Hmm. IIRC the enneagram is in line with the same school of thought that recommends we 'overcome the ego', so I would guess that anything ego-related (i.e. the entire enneagram) would appear negative in that regard. THough it may just be that the site I'm getting my information from deals with a lot of spiritual-meditative types.
What exactly does the bolded phrase mean? I'm not saying I have no clue, I just like to know what it means for enneagram related things.
 
Well, I should say that on further inspection, I'm not seeing this particular phrase, but the idea with overcoming the ego is very much in agreement with reaching the self-actualization that is depicted in the highest level of each type. For each type, the highest level of development is reached by letting go of one's type-specific self-image.

For type 6, this means letting go of the idea that you must rely on someone or something outside of yourself for security.
For type 9, this means letting go of the idea that your participation in the world is unimportant.

It's not the idea that you obliterate your identity, but rather that you don't identify yourself by your unmet basic desire (or your basic fear).
For me, this means letting go of the idea that I am fundamentally different from others in a unique, but flawed, way. I got these descriptions by taking the full test from ennegram institute (which costs money), but since I tied for third in type 6 and type 9 I could pm you those full descriptions if you'd like.
 
Well, I should say that on further inspection, I'm not seeing this particular phrase, but the idea with overcoming the ego is very much in agreement with reaching the self-actualization that is depicted in the highest level of each type. For each type, the highest level of development is reached by letting go of one's type-specific self-image.

For type 6, this means letting go of the idea that you must rely on someone or something outside of yourself for security.
For type 9, this means letting go of the idea that your participation in the world is unimportant.

It's not the idea that you obliterate your identity, but rather that you don't identify yourself by your unmet basic desire (or your basic fear).
For me, this means letting go of the idea that I am fundamentally different from others in a unique, but flawed, way. I got these descriptions by taking the full test from ennegram institute (which costs money), but since I tied for third in type 6 and type 9 I could pm you those full descriptions if you'd like.
YES PLEASE! <3<3<3<3<3
//gives you a virtual chocolate and vanilla frosted cupcake similar to ones I just made an hour before, that I would give you if you we here cause I am very very thankful!!
 
Done! :bounce:

Now where was I? Ah yes...

@VH: Does the triad part of the enneagram just mean that people under stress appear to be another one in the triad? I saw a thread about triads a while ago, but it seemed like the suggestion was that we can actually change types over time. That would be somewhat different to it being caused by stress...

@all: So apparently thus far it seems that enneagram and MBTI are focusing on different things. Enneagram is due to basic fears and desires, which are likely to develop according to type due to the way each mind works, but really there is no necessary correlation between one and the other. Apparent 'conflicts' would only arise if a person had difficulty meeting her desires due to the natural inclinations caused by type. For example, somebody who has a serious desire to be in control (type 8) might have difficulty meeting that need if their type caused them to not tend to push their own agenda (maybe ISTP?). I pretty much just came up with this from what was said here + further studying of enneagram.
 
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Huff... If I was though, something had to have gone HORRIBLY wrong for me to end up as an unhealthy 6.

Sounds to me more like you're a 9, and therefore your healthy side moves toward 3, and your unhealthy side moves toward 6... and therefore you've been 'unhealthy' lately which is what's making you seem like a 6.

Like Indigo, I think I'm a 1w2, and therefore when I get unhealthy (which I have been a lot lately) I become more and more like the bad sides of 4. When I'm happy and healthy, I'm a lot more like a fun lovin' free spirited 7.

If you are a 9, then you'll probably see more of the 'bad sides' of 6 in yourself, and more of the 'good parts' of 3 in yourself, and 9 will seem pretty 'normal' for you, and your 'normal' state is one of putting peace and harmony first... as in you'll be at your happiest when surrounded by peace and harmony, and from there you can move toward the good parts of 3. Without peace and harmony, you'll start to focus on anxiety and the need for security of a 6.
 
@VH: Does the triad part of the enneagram just mean that people under stress appear to be another one in the triad? I saw a thread about triads a while ago, but it seemed like the suggestion was that we can actually change types over time. That would be somewhat different to it being caused by stress...

I am by no means an expert on Enneagram. I'm just now learning it and putting it together myself... but... that said, yes, this seems to be the case. 1-4-7, 2-5-8, and 3-6-9 seem to have a lot of connectivity.

@all: So apparently thus far it seems that enneagram and MBTI are focusing on different things. Enneagram is due to basic fears and desires, which are likely to develop according to type due to the way each mind works, but really there is no necessary correlation between one and the other. Apparent 'conflicts' would only arise if a person had difficulty meeting her desires due to the natural inclinations caused by type. For example, somebody who has a serious desire to be in control (type 8) might have difficulty meeting that need if their type caused them to not tend to push their own agenda (maybe ISTP?). I pretty much just came up with this from what was said here + further studying of enneagram.

I used to think that was the case, but I think it is more a case of MBTI seems to flavor what our fears, desires, and motivations focus on and how they manifest. For example, an INFJ type 8 would be more focused on controlling their environment via personal interactions and figuring out how things are going to be, while an ESTJ type 8 would be more focused on controlling their environment via delegating tasks to others and the immediate details of the 'real world'. Meanwhile an INTP type 8 would be more focused on controlling their environment via how things work and how they could be improved. So, while an introverted type 8 might be less inclined to 'stand up for themselves' or 'make a ruckus', they could be just as focused on their own personal power... just in the areas that matter most to their perspective, and in those areas could be quite unyielding and domineering. But, that's just how I see it at the moment. I'm still learning this stuff.

Also, it seems that the sexual, self preservation, and social variants are a real factor in connecting the MBTI to Enneagram.
 
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Hmm, that's interesting. I guess by that logic, I would be an individual who seeks to validate my uniqueness and attain my identity through analysis of myself and creation of theories. Or at least, something like that. I'll have to ponder on this idea for a while...

Also, If you know where I could find out more about linking MBTI to Enneagram with the instinctual variants, that would be great. I still haven't figured out whether I am a sx/sp or a sp/sx, though I'm pretty sure it's sp/sx (considering that I have had several issues with food). Anyway, I'm curious as to how that would fit them together.
 
It is highly unlikely that a 4 would be an NT as 4s identify themselves with their feelings. Their feelings always come first before their thinking. They are very comfortable living with their emotions.
 
Well that's true, though what defines an NT is how s/he operates and what functions are most stimulating, not whether or not they dismiss emotion. As a type 4 INTP, I can say that I'm very concerned with my feelings (and define myself by my mood), though I do spend quite a lot of time thinking. I actually had difficulty accepting myself as being an INTP because of the type descriptions, but I've sense decided that only the cognitive processes truly describe an individual's type.

I am actually quite comfortable with my emotions, and welcome them very much, they just confuse me sometimes. Half of what I love about music is the emotional states they create (the other half being the lyrical significance and the pattern of notes). I'm open to other explanations as to why I'm this way, but I'm fairly certain at this point that it's because I'm an INTP 4w5.
 
Dominant function for an INTP is introverted thinking while the secondary function being extroverted intuition.

http://www.intp.org/intprofile.html

INTP is a thinker while a 4 is a feeler. They don't seem to fit together.
 
Dominant function for an INTP is introverted thinking while the secondary function being extroverted intuition.

http://www.intp.org/intprofile.html

INTP is a thinker while a 4 is a feeler. They don't seem to fit together.

An INTP is more likely to be a 4 then is an ExTJ though. Either way, I think it is possible, just very very rare.
 
INTP's are not often mainly type 4's but do frequently have 4 wings. I believe there's more to type 4 then just feeling, though the type can be quite melancholic when its at its worst. Type four is mainly about a sense of individuality which a lot of INTP's at times desire. It lets creativity flow, it grants independence.
 
INTPs are mostly 5s, 9w1s or 6w5s.
It is quite common for some INTP 9s and 6s to mistype themselves as 5s.

Surely there are more to 4s than just feelings.
 
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this is an interesting thread. i'm an intp too but i can identify with alot of what you've said, @KazeCraven: well, not the part about being comfortable with my feelings (definitely not), but about being aware of them and focusing on them. they kind of inspire my thoughts and vice versa. would this make me a 4 also?
 
Hmm, that's interesting. I guess by that logic, I would be an individual who seeks to validate my uniqueness and attain my identity through analysis of myself and creation of theories. Or at least, something like that. I'll have to ponder on this idea for a while...

Also, If you know where I could find out more about linking MBTI to Enneagram with the instinctual variants, that would be great. I still haven't figured out whether I am a sx/sp or a sp/sx, though I'm pretty sure it's sp/sx (considering that I have had several issues with food). Anyway, I'm curious as to how that would fit them together.

Have you considered the possibility that you're an INFP with a well developed T? They are very commonly 4s.

This might help with the stackings...

http://similarminds.com/variant.html

Variant stacking is part of Enneagram I think, but is practically distinct
theory. It contains three basic surviving instincts. first is our basic state,
second works in the background and is also influential and the last one is
our weak point.

I found this from some forum discussing how variants relates to MBTI type.
sx - exacerbates E, makes J milder
sp - exacerbates I, makes J stronger
so - exacerbates J, makes N milder

More descriptions:
http://www.ocean-moonshine.net/e142...er_op=view_page&PAGE_id=42&MMN_position=80:80

Here are the stackings from that link for 4 sp/sx and 4 sx/sp...

4 Self/Sexual

This subtype also cares very much about their surroundings and their possessions. They feel as if these things help to express who they are. There is more of a passionate sense about them as compared to the self/soc. They have more of a sensual relationship with their environment. These Fours are much more tortured by their difficulty with respect to maintaining close relationships. The self-preservational instinct tends to be in conflict with the sexual instinct, causing this subtype to habitually analyze their relationships to the point where they find it difficult to be present to them. When unhealthy, these Fours can become very disdainful of the social environment. They also start to envy the ease with which others seem to form relationships and maintain friendships. When Fours of this subtype are healthy, they find that they can form relationships without feeling as though they are sacrificing authenticity. They no longer feel that they have to automatically define themselves as "different from others," as outside the group. They are able to see the ways in which their emotionality might cloud their better judgment and to use that insight to establish equilibrium.


4 Sexual/Self-pres

This is a very volatile type. They are driven to form connections but have very high demands of their partners. When their powerful fantasies don’t match reality, they become very restless. They take the fire and passion of the sexual instinct and turn it inward. This can cause both brooding and fiery outbursts. Dramatic mood swings are very likely with this type. This subtype of Four could be considered the most classic Four, because of the way they seem to embody the archetype of the tortured artist, although not all Fours of this subtype are artists. Stereotype aside, this subtype does tend to bring their emotions into focus more readily then the other subtypes of Four. What is under the surface with the self-pres/sexual is now bubbling to the surface. This subtype can resemble type Seven because of their drama, passion for experience and tendency to suffer from frustration when life seems dull. Like type Seven, they can seem to throw themselves into experience.

When healthy, this subtype learns to balance the need for passion with the less obvious need for groundedness which can come from solid and focused relationships with others and with their creative outlets.
 
I think VH has a point. I have come across as a T as well. What kind of education do you have? If it is very analytical/mathematical it could be that you are developing these treads but that they are not your dominant ones. The fact that you are in touch with your emotions and don't look at them as undesirable and annoying speaks against you being an INTP

the fear on which type 4 is based is the loss of connection. Is seeking connections your main concern in life? Are you jealous of people who seem to have found someone to have a deep connection with, do you hate it when people remain shallow towards you?

I think you mainly have to decide on being 4w5 or 5w4
how much do you relate on 4's becoming 2 in unhealty state and 1 in a healty state? Does that apply on you too?
 
I'm a 1w2 - I got into enneagram first by wondering about how the ancient greeks classified people - melancholic, sanguine, phlegmatic or choleric and was a bit shocked when I realised that choleric was the one that fitted and that my reaction was to feel angry a lot of the time - though I would use words like irritated, annoyed, frustrated. Then I found a description of the enneagram with 1s having anger as a basis. It seems that anger is ok but holding onto it and letting it become resentment is what screws you up. But the disintegration to the bad side of a 4 fits for me I tend to get depressed and shut myself away when things are bad - and integrating to a 7 fits also.
I guess MBTI/enneagram etc are all different ways to understand people aren't they??

by the way its 3-6-9-3 and 1-7-5-8-2-4-1 for dis/integration!
 
I'm a 1w2 - I got into enneagram first by wondering about how the ancient greeks classified people - melancholic, sanguine, phlegmatic or choleric and was a bit shocked when I realised that choleric was the one that fitted and that my reaction was to feel angry a lot of the time - though I would use words like irritated, annoyed, frustrated. Then I found a description of the enneagram with 1s having anger as a basis. It seems that anger is ok but holding onto it and letting it become resentment is what screws you up. But the disintegration to the bad side of a 4 fits for me I tend to get depressed and shut myself away when things are bad - and integrating to a 7 fits also.
I guess MBTI/enneagram etc are all different ways to understand people aren't they??

by the way its 3-6-9-3 and 1-7-5-8-2-4-1 for dis/integration!

It depends on what your Ennegram is. If you're a 6 your disintegration is 3. If you're a 9, your disintegration is 6. If you're 3, your disintegration is 9.

Riso and Hudson choose to use this pattern for disintegration: 1-4-2-8-5-7-1; 9-6-3-9 and this one for integration: 1-7-5-8-2-4-1; 9-3-6-9. But there are many different theories out there. I prefer the triads, and that seems to really work in many cases.
 
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