Conflicts between Enneagram and MBTI type? | Page 5 | INFJ Forum

Conflicts between Enneagram and MBTI type?

You know, that could be it. I'm my brother's brother, so we're not different genders, but there have been studies showing that male children after the first born are much more likely to be effeminate. Which I definitely am: my brother would never ever consider himself to be a type 4. He's too anti-emotion, and you could see this from the time we were little children.

Also, lots of the podcasts from the enneagram institute make allusions to type being defined by parental problems, so it's quite possible that our enneagram develops by nurture. They were included for a reason, I'm sure, but personally none of the suggestions about parental issues were true for me.

Awwwwwww! :love: You're the cute little second son!!!! (Mwah mwah mwah mwah!)

Ahem. Sorry about that.

I do think birth order influences personality a lot -- I don't know if I'd go so far to say second-born sons are more effiminate, mmmmmmaybe...

...but in my general (please don't hate me for generalizing) experience, there is a much more mellow vibe amongst second sons. My own is adorably happy-go-lucky. I say that based on experiences with both sons and brothers and a few odd cousins.
 
The way I now see the triad is:

Worry (6)-> Calm (9)-> Make shit happen (3)-> Worry(6), ect.

I now firmly believe Dove is a 9 after seeing all 3 of her stages. She can worry a lot, but this isn't comfortable for her. If she was a 6 she'd stress out and try to sort things out under this stress, but that doesn't happen. She just worries unfortunately.

Now when she's in her 9 state, she can actually go on to achieve something. Dove's an amazing achiever and can crack down and work on anything, but she has to be comfortable with herself to do this.

I'm definitely a 9 and I see the same pattern in me, except I'm more firmly rooted into 9 while Dove fluctuates through these stages a lot faster.

Of course I'll let her answer but just wanted to give my input.
Aaah, I can understand that. Yeah, healthy 6s tend to sort things out and became healthier (...or before going down by themselves. Really, 6s are kinda.. trying too hard to solve their fears). And I can understand the fluidity within the 3-6-9 triad; especially for NFs, and especially more for INFJ. 3-6-9 triads seems to root in ...changing their external world. Either by creating results, taking care of people, or eliminating threats. And I guess it is..kinda..conflicting.
 
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Awwwwwww! :love: You're the cute little second son!!!! (Mwah mwah mwah mwah!)

Ahem. Sorry about that.

I do think birth order influences personality a lot -- I don't know if I'd go so far to say second-born sons are more effiminate, mmmmmmaybe...

...but in my general (please don't hate me for generalizing) experience, there is a much more mellow vibe amongst second sons. My own is adorably happy-go-lucky. I say that based on experiences with both sons and brothers and a few odd cousins.

Well, it has to do with the fact that interactions with the mother and first son cause a different environment for second sons, who are exposed to a different set of chemicals prenatally. That's the explanation, and there has been somewhat of a trend found. That's not to say that all second sons would be more effiminate though.

I'd agree with being somewhat more mellow than my older brother too, though. My older brother has more of an 'edge' or hardness to him, though he's much more... calm, I'd say.
 
Well, it has to do with the fact that interactions with the mother and first son cause a different environment for second sons, who are exposed to a different set of chemicals prenatally. That's the explanation, and there has been somewhat of a trend found. That's not to say that all second sons would be more effiminate though.

I'd agree with being somewhat more mellow than my older brother too, though. My older brother has more of an 'edge' or hardness to him, though he's much more... calm, I'd say.

This is a topic that is very much top-of-mind to me, as I am the mother of two young sons and very concerned about their well-being.

I know the prenatal chemicals, etc., supposedly affect personality and how "effeminate" one is (or is not). Not an expert on that, however.

I do know that first borns and second borns (and so on to the youngest) are quite literally born into completely different families -- and try as you might, no parent can replicate the same environment for the second that the first had. This truth simply must influence personality, I do not see how it could not.

My first born was wounded to the core when his brother was born -- he had been the absolute center of our universe, he was certainly the center of mine, and it was painful to him to have this little rival -- I would have spared him that pain if I could've, but I couldn't, and ultimately, he had to learn this painful lesson. To a little three year old, it can be traumatic. I went so far as to tandem nurse them both to help them bond. It resulted in shoving matches to get his baby brother off me as much as anything else, though I like to think it maybe helped them bond. At any rate, my eldest is now his brother's staunchest defender as well as toughest critic. Heaven help me if I put his little brother on the naughty step! He loves his brother now, but that experience of being "supplanted" will always be with him, I expect. In truth, he was not supplanted -- he was given a brother who loves him. But it is hard for a child to understand this, especially if they have been a little hovered over by, ummmm, okay, an overprotective INFJ. I admit it.

As for my second-born, he recognized his brother's voice when he was a few hours old, because he had heard it in the womb. His universe had always been inhabited by another child, even prenatally. That other child was fascinating and exciting, and always doing interesting and noisy things, and making faces and shouting and so on. I tried to do everything for my second-born the exact way I did for his older brother, but I simply couldn't, because I am only one person, and it would've required cloning myself or foregoing sleep and personal hygeine completely. As a result, my precious little second born has been a little less hovered over, and I think it has made him a little less edgy and certainly a happy-go-lucky, sweetheart of a child. He will not hesitate to use any means possible (usually his teeth) to defend himself against someone who is a head taller and about twice his weight, but it takes a lot to get him to that point. He is currently less adept at using words or other tactics to work things out; I hope that as he grows older he will develop those skills. Having had a wrestling partner from birth, however, has helped him learn to deal with people very well, and he is my little extrovert, lucky guy! In a way, though I am sad that he was never able to have the entire spotlight all to himself, it may actually have done him a favor.

So, side note on birth order and personality... sorry! LOL! I know all families are different, but as a parent, I now realize how big an influence birth order and family dynamics can be on our core personalities.
 
Interesting story. Of course, I can't say how your children would have turned out if things had gone differently, but I do agree quite a bit with the more... excuse me for lack of the proper word, primal instinct of fighting through biting and less ability to work things out more verbally or reasonably.

I'm not one to wrestle, and I'm no extrovert though. And I can't say that my brother had a problem with losing attention to me: if he did, he never showed it as far as I can remember. Our family is quite a bit more... spacious, though. We rely on and protect each other, but I think we're all introverts and quite okay, if not comfortable, with a little distance. Or maybe that's the type 4 in me seeing myself as separate from the rest of my family.
 
Yes, unfortunately my family is more spacious than I would like today as well. Sigh.

You're also 20 -- I wonder if you felt this "seperateness" as a toddler? And does/did your brother always feel it, even as a tiny child? Or did he grow into it, and if so did he feel "independent" at an older age than you?

Just wondering... it was a long time ago and hard to remember.

Growing up people naturally need to seperate, it is okay and healthy. Little babies and toddlers have to learn independence -- some learn it older than others, and I wonder how that ties into personality.

There's another issue with the oldest vs. youngest thing -- the oldest simply is, and will be at least through the teenage years, probably, more adept than the younger ones at most things.
 
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I'm not one to wrestle, and I'm no extrovert though. And I can't say that my brother had a problem with losing attention to me: if he did, he never showed it as far as I can remember. Our family is quite a bit more... spacious, though. We rely on and protect each other, but I think we're all introverts and quite okay, if not comfortable, with a little distance. Or maybe that's the type 4 in me seeing myself as separate from the rest of my family.

If I can break in, I think the sense of separateness is an NT phenomenon. I have felt it and my family certainly feels it. NT's demand autonomy.

I'm also a second son but, whereas my older brother is effeminant (ISFJ), I'm simply androgynous in that I reject both masculine and feminine roles in favor of simply behaving in a way that I think is most appropriate for any given situation.
 
I'm happy for you to "break in" and actually would welcome any comments on how you think birth order and parenting did (or did not) affect your personality.

Having looked at it from both sides now, I feel a stronger sense than ever that it does affect personality. It is so hard to seperate the innate from that which we acquire through experience -- even the very earliest of experience.
 
I'm happy for you to "break in" and actually would welcome any comments on how you think birth order and parenting did (or did not) affect your personality.

Having looked at it from both sides now, I feel a stronger sense than ever that it does affect personality. It is so hard to seperate the innate from that which we acquire through experience -- even the very earliest of experience.

Birth order was unusual. I'm fairly certain that I took on the role of the eldest in some respects. My brother is only 14 months older, and I have a much more dominant personality, so I was the "alpha sibling" if there is such a thing. My parents treated us very much the same as well because of our closeness in age, almost like twins.
 
@DoveAlexa:

hmm, now that I think about it; there's a possibility of 9 >> 6 instead of being a 6, whom during stress, went into 3. Now imagine yourself; when you're stressed, do you tend to hide and be scared, and doing it all while wishing it all be over quickly while you're in the safe place, or do you went scared yet pissed, trying to solve everything as much as you can, as if "to get it over with" ? Do you seek support, or do you shied away from support?

And really, what's your behaviour and state of emotion during your 'normal' state? For example, I can easily point out 'flaws' and where things could go wrong during every state of my mind; happy or not. I guess that's what came out from being a natural 6. >_>;
I can confirm with this that I am indeed a 9. When I get stressed out I can't do anything. I shut down, withdraw from everything and entirely stop living, if its bad enough. I also suffer from the 9's anger and resultant fatigue. When I'm happy is when I can do things. If I'm not, I can't do much of anything, nor want to.
The way I now see the triad is:

Worry (6)-> Calm (9)-> Make shit happen (3)-> Worry(6), ect.

I now firmly believe Dove is a 9 after seeing all 3 of her stages. She can worry a lot, but this isn't comfortable for her. If she was a 6 she'd stress out and try to sort things out under this stress, but that doesn't happen. She just worries unfortunately.

Now when she's in her 9 state, she can actually go on to achieve something. Dove's an amazing achiever and can crack down and work on anything, but she has to be comfortable with herself to do this.

I'm definitely a 9 and I see the same pattern in me, except I'm more firmly rooted into 9 while Dove fluctuates through these stages a lot faster.

Of course I'll let her answer but just wanted to give my input.
Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww, I dunno about that... I haven't achieved much lately, I kinda peaked in junior high and highschool.
:mf:

and @VH, I'm not sure about those subtypes, they all seem extroverted and rather aggressive. I can be aggressive, but more in spurts, so maybe the latter one? Dunno though.
 
Yes, unfortunately my family is more spacious than I would like today as well. Sigh.

You're also 20 -- I wonder if you felt this "seperateness" as a toddler? And does/did your brother always feel it, even as a tiny child? Or did he grow into it, and if so did he feel "independent" at an older age than you?

Just wondering... it was a long time ago and hard to remember.

Growing up people naturally need to seperate, it is okay and healthy. Little babies and toddlers have to learn independence -- some learn it older than others, and I wonder how that ties into personality.

There's another issue with the oldest vs. youngest thing -- the oldest simply is, and will be at least through the teenage years, probably, more adept than the younger ones at most things.

I felt like I could definitely count on my parents (and brother) for protection, but I can't remember whether I felt close to them or not (my retrievable memories start at 4, but they're still very sparse then too). No, I think I somewhat grew into this separateness, mostly out of the feeling that I wasn't like them as I grew older. Strangely, it's not something that particularly bothers me, so I don't think it's unhealthy. I think it actually has more to do with the fact that I don't feel like I am who I want to be, so anyone who connects with who I'm being now isn't really connecting with me. Still working on that though.

My brother seems more internally independent. What I mean is that, he seems very much a part of the family, but if he doesn't want to do something or has a problem with something, he'll resist and go his own way. He's actually a very prototypical INTx from my POV (not sure what he'd say though; I think he's changed quite a lot since I've stopped hanging with him).

I don't really know if I can agree to the need for autonomy, as the main reason I want my own place is because I feel like I can't really expand into who I want to be without my parents questioning my latest experimentations (i.e. with fashion-style or with hobbies, not scientific). I actually behaved a lot more like a dreamy, sensitive INFP when I was younger (I also identified* a lot with the ISFJ-esque attention towards doing everything expected of me, though being a lot more on the whiny/self-absorbed side). The only reason I identify with the 'NT' label is that I am very interested in theories and I have an enjoyment (not to mention a high aptitude) for logical activities. I've tried doing research twice now, but they have both times left me cold, so I'm planning on getting out of that.

ETA: That's actually in hindsight, remembering what I was like way back when and then trying to figure out what little 6-12 yr old me (yes, it's that fuzzy) would have identified with. He was very sensitive, shy, and quick to do what was expected of him; at least when he wasn't daydreaming, that is.
 
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Apparently, a test I took said I was 5w6... common for INTP... which I am NOT.

Maybe because I tend not to have very strong leanings for anything... I'm kinda middle ground for responses.
 
What was your next closest ones? Did you save those?

Why do you feel that your responses do not swing strongly one way or the other? Do you feel you can see most perspectives in yourself quite easily?
 
When I'm being very idealistic my nine is up.