Conflicts between Enneagram and MBTI type?

[DoveAlexa]

Definitely, anything that involves shooting, yelling or hitting other people won't make anger go away, it will just fuse more anger. It's like trying to extinguish a fire by pouring more fire into it.

What sorts of activities relaxes you, make you more connected with other people?

Taking care of people, feeding, loving, cuddling, etc. I'll be doing that in late October though, but not as intensely now . Other than that, reading, occational gaming (not much of it relaxes me though), cooking, making things. I haven't made anything in a long time, really. I'm not sure, I'll have to think about this more. Continue with what you were going on about though ;D.

 

[Gaze]

An unhealthy 5w4 can resemble a 4 very much so usually because of excessive introspective analysis, which can resemble the 4's search of inner identity. It can become a compulsion with me, at times, to try to define myself, i.e., fit myself to a precise definition based on who I feel I am.

This^^^

 

[VH]

I'm glad we could help, @DoveAlexa:.

When I read things like what @Last Dawn: wrote about 9s, I see a lot of that in myself. I am loathe to let my anger out, despite the fact that I have a lot of it. Maybe I'm a 1w9? Who knows? Regardless, I understand the anger and anxiety build up pretty well.

I know for a fact that taking control of something is the best way for me to focus my 'anger' and 'frustrations'. For example, exercising, whether it is weights, running, or whatever really helps. The body needs to release the stress hormones that we create through physical activity.

I think the next best way for me to get over my anger or frustrations are to just go out somewhere alone where no one can hear me and just yell until it all comes out, and then cry if I need to, or find some junk to beat up with a baseball bat until I got it out... but I don't like to have to do this sort of thing because it feels like being out of control and brings me too close to being weak. I have to admit that it does help when nothing else will though.

Next best is finding something to overcome on an intellectual level, like creating art, solving a puzzle, or beating a game, but the problem here is that it baits the possibility of more frustration or fueling the anger because there is no physical outlet, and sometimes this can end up just making more stress hormones.

Finally, I've found that turning my anger and frustration into willpower and tenacity really helps me overcome anxiety. There are two ways to really help with anxiety - focusing on your options, and taking control. If you have a lot of anger, I'd suggest deciding on an option and then use your anger to take control. I often tell my anger and frustration "You will not win" when anxiety starts to take me, and then I turn my anger against my anxiety until I get control, at which point I deal with the anger.

The most important part though, is focusing on peace and harmony once you're gotten control and reminding yourself that you are a good person and you make good things happen. You bring peace, harmony, and people love you. You have insight and a special ability to make the world a better place. Focusing on these things while you are healthy helps you stay healthy.

Also, Dove, from the way you focus on things like cuddling and intimacy, it sounds like you are a sexual subtype (I'm one too, and the name is kind of a misnomer... less about sex and more about establishing intimacy). It could be helpful to figure out which of these two you are, to better help you focus on what you need to do to stay healthy and happy.

9 - Sexual/Self-pres


The energy of the sexual instinct is at odds with the dominant type Nine energy and makes for a conflicted subtype. These Nines can appear to have a stronger connection to Three, for this reason. The assertive fiery energy engages in a constant push-pull with the calm peace-seeking energy of the Nine. This subtype can have an intense relationship with their environment. They are often drawn to solo sports or to an active engagement with nature that involves some risk and exertion. These Nines are drawn to peak experiences. They might enjoy outdoor solo sports or engaging in nature by way of hiking, rock climbing etc.

With the social instinct last in the stacking, there can be an on/off quality when it comes to relating and these Nines are often somewhat moodier than the other subtypes. As with the self-pres/sexual, this subtype might not engage socially with the same smoothness as other subtypes of Nine. They seem to go towards others in a staccato fashion - they connect in bursts, then withdraw.

When it comes to intimate relationships, this subtype can be needy. The merging of the Nine combines with the intensity of the sexual instinct to create a subtype that will always be in danger of losing themselves in a relationship. Their boundaries for themselves and their partner can become blurred which can lead to conflicts. This subtype might have a hard time judging clearly the degree to which they have merged.



9 - Sexual/Social


This subtype of Nine may appear least like a stereotypical Nine because the outward sexual and social energies obscure some of the withdrawing and "zoning out" tendencies of the Nine. These Nines are the most connected and assertive of the subtypes of Nine, especially when it comes to relationships. There is still some internal struggle, as with the sexual/self-pres, but overall there is less of a tendency to withdraw. With the self-pres instinct last, this subtype can neglect self-preservational needs in favor of the intensity of their sexual instinct's pursuits. Individuals of this subtype could easily be mistaken for the dominant wing, because the sexual energy tends to flow in a manner similar to the energy of the wing. A Nine with a One wing would therefore appear more One-like and a Nine with Eight might be mistaken for an Eight.

The central conflict for these Nines will still be in the realm of close intimate relationships and these Nines will have many of the same issues and challenges as the sexual/self-pres Nines.

 

[whytiger]

@whytiger: *does a double take* I could've sworn you were a type 7, though I'm probably confusing you with someone else.

I said I was a 7w6 but I was subsequently told elsewhere that I was 5w4 so I changed my answer.

 

[KazeCraven]

Just out of curiosity, would you say that your greatest fear (or one of them) is to be helpless or incompetent?

I ask, because it's supposedly one of the defining features of being a type 5, and the primary reason I don't identify as one. I'm much more concerned about whether my life has been put towards something important, and (so long as I'm not the cause) if I'm rendered helpless then at least I know I no longer have the power to squander my life.

However, if someone were to type me, I think I'd probably be given type 5. Which is reasonable, but I'd need a lot more explanations to fill the gaps.

 

[Jack]

I constantly get different results on the enneagram.

 

[VH]

I constantly get different results on the enneagram.

Same here.

Depending on the test, I've gotten 1, 2, 4, 8, and 9. However different tests will put each of these at radically different levels. Like one test says I'm a 9 while another says 9 is my lowest score.

 

[AUM]

Same here.

Depending on the test, I've gotten 1, 2, 4, 8, and 9. However different tests will put each of these at radically different levels. Like one test says I'm a 9 while another says 9 is my lowest score.

Accordingly, they say that the nine may look like any other type except the 9 itself:

We have sometimes called the Nine the crown of the Enneagram because it is at the top of the symbol and because it seems to include the whole of it. Nines can have the strength of Eights, the sense of fun and adventure of Sevens, the dutifulness of Sixes, the intellectualism of Fives, the creativity of Fours, the attractiveness of Threes, the generosity of Twos, and the idealism of Ones. However, what they generally do not have is a sense of really inhabiting themselves

 

[Jack]

Very interesting.

 

[Trifoilum]

@DoveAlexa:

hmm, now that I think about it; there's a possibility of 9 >> 6 instead of being a 6, whom during stress, went into 3. Now imagine yourself; when you're stressed, do you tend to hide and be scared, and doing it all while wishing it all be over quickly while you're in the safe place, or do you went scared yet pissed, trying to solve everything as much as you can, as if "to get it over with" ? Do you seek support, or do you shied away from support?

And really, what's your behaviour and state of emotion during your 'normal' state? For example, I can easily point out 'flaws' and where things could go wrong during every state of my mind; happy or not. I guess that's what came out from being a natural 6. >_>;

 

[whytiger]

Just out of curiosity, would you say that your greatest fear (or one of them) is to be helpless or incompetent?

I ask, because it's supposedly one of the defining features of being a type 5, and the primary reason I don't identify as one. I'm much more concerned about whether my life has been put towards something important, and (so long as I'm not the cause) if I'm rendered helpless then at least I know I no longer have the power to squander my life.

However, if someone were to type me, I think I'd probably be given type 5. Which is reasonable, but I'd need a lot more explanations to fill the gaps.

I'm not sure we always acknowledge what our greatest fear is or recognize the signs. We may not have a massive fear reaction when confronted with it like we would with, say, a life or death situation. In this sense, it's not a fear but more like a priority. If we observe our own behavior, we can often get an answer. My problem issue has always been my inability to ask people for help so I equate this with a fear of being helpless. For example, I never went to office hours in college or contacted the TA's even when I was stuck. There have been times when I've been depressed and it was suggested I see a therapist, but I always said no. I always had to solve my own problems in my own mind. Although I have a fear of pain and deprivation as well, like the 7, I think it's not quite as strong. I would rather be deprived than have to rely entirely on others. Still, there have been times when others have recognized my need for help and helped without my having to ask. I have appreciated it because it allowed me to "save face" since I could always say I didn't really need it.

 

[88chaz88]

@DoveAlexa:

hmm, now that I think about it; there's a possibility of 9 >> 6 instead of being a 6, whom during stress, went into 3. Now imagine yourself; when you're stressed, do you tend to hide and be scared, and doing it all while wishing it all be over quickly while you're in the safe place, or do you went scared yet pissed, trying to solve everything as much as you can, as if "to get it over with" ? Do you seek support, or do you shied away from support?

And really, what's your behaviour and state of emotion during your 'normal' state? For example, I can easily point out 'flaws' and where things could go wrong during every state of my mind; happy or not. I guess that's what came out from being a natural 6. >_>;

The way I now see the triad is:

Worry (6)-> Calm (9)-> Make shit happen (3)-> Worry(6), ect.

I now firmly believe Dove is a 9 after seeing all 3 of her stages. She can worry a lot, but this isn't comfortable for her. If she was a 6 she'd stress out and try to sort things out under this stress, but that doesn't happen. She just worries unfortunately.

Now when she's in her 9 state, she can actually go on to achieve something. Dove's an amazing achiever and can crack down and work on anything, but she has to be comfortable with herself to do this.

I'm definitely a 9 and I see the same pattern in me, except I'm more firmly rooted into 9 while Dove fluctuates through these stages a lot faster.

Of course I'll let her answer but just wanted to give my input.

 

[KazeCraven]

I'm not sure we always acknowledge what our greatest fear is or recognize the signs. We may not have a massive fear reaction when confronted with it like we would with, say, a life or death situation. In this sense, it's not a fear but more like a priority. If we observe our own behavior, we can often get an answer. My problem issue has always been my inability to ask people for help so I equate this with a fear of being helpless. For example, I never went to office hours in college or contacted the TA's even when I was stuck. There have been times when I've been depressed and it was suggested I see a therapist, but I always said no. I always had to solve my own problems in my own mind. Although I have a fear of pain and deprivation as well, like the 7, I think it's not quite as strong. I would rather be deprived than have to rely entirely on others. Still, there have been times when others have recognized my need for help and helped without my having to ask. I have appreciated it because it allowed me to "save face" since I could always say I didn't really need it.

Hmm, yes, that makes sense. There's a good chance of misinterpretation due to cognitive biases if we just check by identification/recognition.

However, I'm primarily interested in the enneagram to figure out how to motivate myself, which it's supposed to indicate, hence this thread (more or less). Thus, while explanatory power is good, I'm also very interested in predictive power so that I can get leverage on myself. I've done the whole 'retreat to library for a week' thing, but that is rare and I'm not motivated to do it much.

 

[whytiger]

Hmm, yes, that makes sense. There's a good chance of misinterpretation due to cognitive biases if we just check by identification/recognition.

However, I'm primarily interested in the enneagram to figure out how to motivate myself, which it's supposed to indicate, hence this thread (more or less). Thus, while explanatory power is good, I'm also very interested in predictive power so that I can get leverage on myself. I've done the whole 'retreat to library for a week' thing, but that is rare and I'm not motivated to do it much.

I am motivated by talking to people about how to solve problems and move forward on projects. I have also done the retreat to the library (for a few hours). Other things I do are making schedules---something that does not come naturally to me, but I had a PDA in college and used it. I also try to practice mindfulness sometimes. One thing that works is trying to find ways to make what I'm doing more fun and interesting, exercising my creativity---this comes from the w4 I think.

 

[athenian200]

I'm not certain if there is one.

But I do know that I identify more with INFJ than the other 16 types. I also know that I tend to be highly introverted, and have Ni > Ti > Fe as a function order. It has been suspected that I'm a 5w4 SO... maybe that's why functions are "bent" more than they should be, and why Fi is my weakest function? Normal INFJs are 4 or 9 (my second-highest types)... if I'm a 5, that could explain some of my quirks in comparison to them.

I read about a thread with several INFJ 5's that have the same tendencies with Ni/Ti. I think my 5 could be applying a modifier or distortion to my INFJ type that looks like this:

Ni +5
Ti +10
Fe -5 (part of this negative effect might be mitigated by being a "Social" subtype.)
Fi -10

Aside from that, my type seems to go along expected lines... maybe enneagram types are what distort types away from the typical model?

No one knows if that's possible or not, though.

 

[KazeCraven]

*Has to think about what athenian means about "not certain if there is one."*

So you don't necessarily identify with 5 over 4 or 9?

ETA: Oh, and yes, I definitely think of enneagram (and instinctual variant) type as being like an accessory that effects your MBTI stats.
*grew up playing too many video games*

(note: this discussion on athenian200 has been redirected to http://forums.infjs.com/showthread.php?p=322406#post322406)

 

[testing]

...I'm 1w2 and my need for things to be "right" is a forced to be recokned with and can cause so much stress in me it isn't even funny. It can also lead to me being quite the bitch.

I tested as 1 too! With a social variant. That could explain a lot in my life, actually.

This isn't exactly an example of serious conflict between 'types', but it's pretty clear that such conflict could arise quite easily between other types in a similar, and much more severe, manner. So my question is whether anyone here has, or knows someone who has, unusual combinations from the two methods and has had inner conflict because of it (or would just like to comment about the issue).

@ KazeCraven-- I'd like to comment about the issue! Here lately, I've been wondering how much, if any, of our personality is influenced by lifestyle.

For example: people say ESFJs are the "housewife" type. Well, I am an INFJ who has actually been a housewife, so does that make me more ESFJ-like? Even though at heart I am an INFJ? (I always test that way.)

I have also owned a small business: does this make me able to take on the characteristics of an enterpreneurial type? (INTP or ENTP, I suppose?) I am not by nature very detail-oriented at all, but my career experience has forced me to develop attention to detail (somewhat painfully). So, could that make me seem more S? Even though at heart I am an INFJ? And heaven knows I have had to learn about finances and small engine repair, so does that make me seem more like a type that excels at these things?


I guess what I am really wondering is: if unusual combinations exist, could they arise due to life circumstances and experience? How many people get to experience perfect harmony between their life circumstances and their innate personality? Not me, that's for sure -- and by bending somewhat to life circumstances, does that create conflict and unusual combinations?

 

[KazeCraven]

Yay! Comments are great.

I know someone quite experienced with the MBTI, and he would say that the 'housewife' is an archetype which anyone could inhabit, whereas ESFJ just is well-suited to adopt the housewife archetype. I would think that your experiences have changed you in a way, but that what you most likely did was handle these situations in an INFJ-ish way. Perhaps the housewife role wasn't satisfying to you, so you either downplayed it or found a way to do it that satisfied your Ni (probably a creative tactic). And perhaps your entrepreneurial experience was shaped quite uniquely due to your type. I would think that if you were to suddenly take over a business that operated in an ENTP-ish way, you'd either change it or get a little stressed out.

I'd guess that they could very well arise due to life circumstances, though I'd be more inclined to say that they change the development we have within our types. For example, a lot of detail-oriented work for you would develop your sensing function so that you can use it better, but wouldn't make you want to do detail-oriented work any more than you do now. Similarly, whatever your enneagram type is, you might develop a wing due to life circumstances, but I'm currently of the opinion that we are born, more or less, into a specific enneagram type too. I say that because both my brother and I are of the same MBTI type, but we clearly behaved very differently as young children. I'm not sure whether this is due to enneagram or perhaps to something else (like the temperaments: choleric, sanguine, melancholic, phlegmatic).

As you can see, I'm just bouncing ideas around here, so don't think I have the answers.

 

[testing]

Yay! Comments are great.

I know someone quite experienced with the MBTI, and he would say that the 'housewife' is an archetype which anyone could inhabit, whereas ESFJ just is well-suited to adopt the housewife archetype. I would think that your experiences have changed you in a way, but that what you most likely did was handle these situations in an INFJ-ish way.

Yes, I think I did.

Perhaps the housewife role wasn't satisfying to you, so you either downplayed it or found a way to do it that satisfied your Ni (probably a creative tactic).

It was quite difficult, but satisfying in some ways. The pay sucked, there was no respect for privacy whatsoever, and the bosses were unbelieveably demanding, but I'd do anything for them! LOL.

And perhaps your entrepreneurial experience was shaped quite uniquely due to your type. I would think that if you were to suddenly take over a business that operated in an ENTP-ish way, you'd either change it or get a little stressed out.

Yes, I think I would... in my case, two enterpreneurs in the same family didn't quite work out for a number of reasons, and also, I have immense difficulty doing the "E" thing, which is so important. I work at a company now that seems to operate in a more INFJ-ish way, believe it or not. Yes, companies like that do exist.

I'd guess that they could very well arise due to life circumstances, though I'd be more inclined to say that they change the development we have within our types. For example, a lot of detail-oriented work for you would develop your sensing function so that you can use it better, but wouldn't make you want to do detail-oriented work any more than you do now.

Damn right.

Similarly, whatever your enneagram type is, you might develop a wing due to life circumstances, but I'm currently of the opinion that we are born, more or less, into a specific enneagram type too. I say that because both my brother and I are of the same MBTI type, but we clearly behaved very differently as young children. I'm not sure whether this is due to enneagram or perhaps to something else (like the temperaments: choleric, sanguine, melancholic, phlegmatic).

Well, I wonder if gender differences had anything to do with it? Comparing my sons with my neices, they definitely behaved very differently. It is not politically correct to say so, and I loathe the idea of forcing people into gender boxes, but I cannot lie or ignore what I've observed.

As you can see, I'm just bouncing ideas around here, so don't think I have the answers.

I love bouncing ideas around! <3

 

[KazeCraven]

Well, I wonder if gender differences had anything to do with it? Comparing my sons with my neices, they definitely behaved very differently. It is not politically correct to say so, and I loathe the idea of forcing people into gender boxes, but I cannot lie or ignore what I've observed.

You know, that could be it. I'm my brother's brother, so we're not different genders, but there have been studies showing that male children after the first born are much more likely to be effeminate. Which I definitely am: my brother would never ever consider himself to be a type 4. He's too anti-emotion, and you could see this from the time we were little children.

Also, lots of the podcasts from the enneagram institute make allusions to type being defined by parental problems, so it's quite possible that our enneagram develops by nurture. They were included for a reason, I'm sure, but personally none of the suggestions about parental issues were true for me.