Conflicts between Enneagram and MBTI type?

[KazeCraven]

I recently took a close look at Enneagrams and took some tests...

I came out with 4, followed closely by 5, so 4w5. As an INTP, 5w4 would appear to 'fit' better, but really 4 explains me way better than 5 does.

This isn't exactly an example of serious conflict between 'types', but it's pretty clear that such conflict could arise quite easily between other types in a similar, and much more severe, manner. So my question is whether anyone here has, or knows someone who has, unusual combinations from the two methods and has had inner conflict because of it (or would just like to comment about the issue).

For me, the conflict manifests with a kind of strange relation with my feelings. I resist my feelings a little bit because I can't really function well unless I'm calm, but I have a strong tendency to push into my emotions when they well up. Also, I have gone through several moods of being overly expressive (I actually was like this for almost an entire semester last year, and now it seems very odd to people when I'm not expressive.) despite the fact that I get the most stimulation/flow from heavy analysis and problem solving. Probably related, I have a very strange fear of being incompetent in my artistic expression while being rather indifferent to my scientific competence (my current field; mostly for pragmatic reasons).

Not too surprisingly, I am very self-absorbed (still trying to get over this), so I have had difficulty taking an interest in anything unless it was about me and my interests. Conversely, I seem to identify with neither science/computer-nerd-types nor artistic/creative-types. This has led to a very detached lifestyle. It doesn't help that I am easily offended and brood over one-time offenses. On the plus side, when I degenerate to a needy, helpful individual (type 2), I tire myself out very fast and reassert my boundaries by default.

In other news, I'm curious as to whether there's been any work in substantiating the Enneagram in science. Some work has been done on the MBTI (clear correlations can be seen with the work here: http://www.cgjungpage.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=835&Itemid=40), so I thought perhaps there'd be similar research under the Enneagram. Even if there isn't I've so far found it pretty useful.

 

[Trifoilum]

I think Enneagram tend not to conflict with other MBTI types, but emphasized and downsized certain part of ourselves in a meta sort of way; by downsizing or emphasizing the need to do certain things or not. Therefore, I feel it's kinda hard to put Enneagram to physiology unlike MBTI, which tend to be the way we looked at things.

At least that's what I believe. I believe being 6w5 in my case either increased my J-ness from INFP to INFJ / INFX, or downsized my J-ness from INFJ to INFP/INFX. I can see both; I'm more aggressive and willing to uphold my happiness, and be very loud on questioning 'wrong' and 'potentially dangerous' things better than most INFP would, yet I'm at the same time more fluid, more concerned, more questioning most things than most INFJ would. I believe due to my type 6-ness, I feel both compelled to find groups I feel belong with and holding my own authenticity (which is related to INFP's Fi), and changing myself to belong with the groups and treat others (which is related to INFJ's Fe).

Also, Type 6 by definition battles with anxiety and fear. To some degree, it elevated Fi, Ti, and Ne, because I have to know if I'm feeling safe and what consists 'safe' for me. And it involves trying on possibilities. Yet it also weakened Ni and Se, because I can't be so sure I'll be right. I probably never will be that sure. But to another degree, it elevated Ni + Se, in terms of its Holy Idea and Virtue; Faith and Courage. By believing on what I'll do and what I'm doing, I can trust my intuition and actions more.

I don't know what other INFJ 6w5 have to say in this (one of whom is @DoveAlexa: I think), so feel free to refute my random babbling xDD

 

[KazeCraven]

Heh, I don't know enough about enneagram to refute anything. I'm actually half-interested in someone coming in and saying "no, you are not type 4 and here's why..." (with good reason of course, though it'll probably have to wait until I make myself more well known here).

And thanks, that's an interesting account about type 6 with INFx.

 

[Trifoilum]

Heh, I don't know enough about enneagram to refute anything. I'm actually half-interested in someone coming in and saying "no, you are not type 4 and here's why..." (with good reason of course, though it'll probably have to wait until I make myself more well known here).

And thanks, that's an interesting account about type 6 with INFx.

..ehehe. Sorry for suddenly went rambling ^^;

You seemed kinda 'bothered' with the discrepancy made between your enneagram and your MBTI type, tho. As if, "it's more common for INTPs to be 5w4!" I think it's normal; people could have seemingly different Enneagram comparing to their type. They both would affect each other rather than simply contradict them. Also, having a 'weird' enneagram didn't make you or anyone any less of a MBTI type, Enneagram type, or a person as a whole; for everyone grow up differently.

Perhaps pull a self-analysis as per, why would you think you are and aren't a 5w4 / 4w5 ?

 

[KazeCraven]

Well, I'm bothered because it is more common (though not most common?) for an INTP to be type 5w4. Thus it's more likely that I'm mistyped.

See, I originally joined this forum (and the one at infp.globalchatter) because I thought I was INFJ and didn't relate much to the 'cold' and 'argumentative' nature of the typical INTP. However, even though I had only posted a few posts about myself people were very quick to pick up on my analytical nature (not to mention that I, upon closer inspection, don't relate to or understand the Ni function at all). So part of my issue is that I know I've been wrong about a similar thing before; however, this time it fits much better which is why I haven't discounted it.

Anyway, that out of the way, looking into type 5, there's an accompanied basic desire and fear which I don't relate to much. Yeah, I don't want to have to depend on others and I would prefer to be competent, but it's not a big deal for me. Also, the focus on knowledge and understanding is very accurate, which is why I score so high on type 5, but it seems like this stems from a desire to be able to watch their own backs. I actually paid for a test and extended result, and the details lead more off track. The patterns of stress and integration aren't true at all (I retreat under stress, and I can't relate to any time I've become like a type 8), nor are the fears and desires (this is more subjective, but it seems like it explains my behavior for all the wrong reasons). I see myself a lot in the self-preservation variation of type 5 though (tendency to be minimalistic).

Now, for type 4. I focus quite a bit on who I am and what is true about me. Thus, while the basic fear (that I have no identity) isn't exactly the problem, I am concerned with how much I like my identity (i.e. whether I am assertive, deep, creative, insightful...). Here the average level fears are very accurate (not being understood, forced to give up my fantasy self, that I am wasting opportunities) whereas the type 5 average fears (demanded of too much, losing niche, not finding a place in the world) only makes sense in the context of my losing a unique identity. Also, the idea that I'm fundamentally different from other people has been my story since I was like 6, though I often feel like an outside observer (which is the type 5 self-image), at least when I'm not concerned with how I am defining myself in the minds of others).

My concerns come from the fact that while I am very aware of my feelings (and often define myself by them), I don't feel like I have an exceptional ability in capturing subtle expressions. Furthermore, I have defined myself quite a bit in terms of my mathematical/computational/scientific ability, which seems very non-4ish.

 

[DoveAlexa]

At least that's what I believe. I believe being 6w5 in my case either increased my J-ness from INFP to INFJ / INFX, or downsized my J-ness from INFJ to INFP/INFX. I can see both; I'm more aggressive and willing to uphold my happiness, and be very loud on questioning 'wrong' and 'potentially dangerous' things better than most INFP would, yet I'm at the same time more fluid, more concerned, more questioning most things than most INFJ would. I believe due to my type 6-ness, I feel both compelled to find groups I feel belong with and holding my own authenticity (which is related to INFP's Fi), and changing myself to belong with the groups and treat others (which is related to INFJ's Fe).

Yeah, Elevated Fi for sure. I too have a very strong sense of what I find right and wrong and will stick to it even if I'm being a stick in the mud with other people over it. Fe is still higher though.
An example would be drinking. I was so against it in collage that I would get outright pissy when people would ask me about it. I would NEVER (and still haven't) bend on my morals.
Ne heightened? Sure. I do like to think up as many possibilities for a situation as possible, to make sure I'm not caught unawares. Ti, definitely, but that might just have been my childhood environment. Then again, the site says the 6's try and find potential flaws in arguments which I certainly do, and have done since I was very little. Doing that a lot will build Ti no doubt.

All in all though, I HATE being a 6, I want to be something thats NOT all about being anxious, since it suck all the life out of me a lot and my life. Chaz is a 9, I'd like to be a 9 too...

Anyone got tip on suppressing 6-ness? heh...

 

[Raccoon Love]

All in all though, I HATE being a 6, I want to be something thats NOT all about being anxious, since it suck all the life out of me a lot and my life. Chaz is a 9, I'd like to be a 9 too...

Anyone got tip on suppressing 6-ness? heh...

Haha I am in the same boat, sometimes being a 4 can be so frustrating. Powerful emotions are always overwhelming..one can't help but be melancholic.

 

[DoveAlexa]

Haha I am in the same boat, sometimes being a 4 can be so frustrating. Powerful emotions are always overwhelming..one can't help but be melancholic.

Hmm, I know 4 is all about being intelligent and individualistic, but that it makes you feel like an outcast. I can certainly see the pain that can come from that, you want to and LIKE to be knowledgeable but it makes people not take as well to you as they really ought to.

Still, its automatic in a 6 that you'll be fearful and anxious. Its the BASIS of being a 6, your stuff comes after your basis of individuality. How they HELL does that happen?! Seriously, is ennegrams another of those "it in your genes" thing, because I want to get gene modded if thats the case. F-this.

 

[Gaze]

So, i'm supposedly a 5w4. I've read the descriptions but i'm still uncertain about what this means in the long term

 

[DoveAlexa]

So, i'm supposedly a 5w4. I've read the descriptions but i'm still uncertain about what this means in the long term

Trade yah?

 

[VH]

From what I've gathered, there are tendencies in Enneagram types and MBTI type, but certainly not rules. Enneagram is based on fears and motivations. MBTI is based on how our minds are wired to process and analyze information. There can be commonality in overlap, but these two things are not inherently connected.

This chart shows the tendencies and population distributions as they were found in one such study on the subject.

View attachment 3269

For those of you who are having trouble deciding between types, I've found that most types start to act like another type when stressed or when at their healthiest. This is the triad theory, and seems to be accurate from that I've seen. 4s, 7s, and 1s all tend to act like one another in varying ways depending on stress and health level. 5, 8, 2... and 3, 6, 9 do the same thing. I think this theory is very similar to the idea of shadow functions. In other words, if you have type confusion, it may well be because of your stress levels.

 

[DoveAlexa]

Alright, so... if I calmed down a bit [maybe a lot] and retake the test, I might come out a nice lovely 9?
Or shall I try eating radioactive waste instead?

 

[Gaze]

Alright, so... if I calmed down a bit [maybe a lot] and retake the test, I might come out a nice lovely 9?
Or shall I try eating radioactive waste instead?

 

[DoveAlexa]

Trade me or I'LL EAT IT! //moves spoon of waste to mouth

 

[KazeCraven]

@VH: Ah, I see. So the desires/motivations and fears are at the crux of the Enneagram. I'll have to take a double-take on those again.

Alright, so... if I calmed down a bit [maybe a lot] and retake the test, I might come out a nice lovely 9?
Or shall I try eating radioactive waste instead?

Err..

Maybe so, but I'd recommend against radioactive waste. I think a little healthy development would push you on your way to an ideal 9 though!

 

[DoveAlexa]

@VH: Ah, I see. So the desires/motivations and fears are at the crux of the Enneagram. I'll have to take a double-take on those again.


Err..

Maybe so, but I'd recommend against radioactive waste. I think a little healthy development would push you on your way to an ideal 9 though!

<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3
Really?
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​

 

[KazeCraven]

Absolutely! 6 integrates to 9; looks like all you have to do is sit back, relax, and look on the bright side of things.

 

[DoveAlexa]

Absolutely! 6 integrates to 9; looks like all you have to do is sit back, relax, and look on the bright side of things.

Hmm, thats pretty sweet, if true. Though I tend to have some 3 tendencies, Like wanting to be successful had been the biggest and most important part of my childhood and adolescence, as well as appearing to be awesome. I wanted to be awesome inside and out, but everyone knowing I was awesome was especially important. I did managed to make a fair bit of achievement in school though, including being the best at a few things, so its not like I was just a dreamer. I'm no extrovert though, and thats a big disparity in the me maybe having been a 3 type.
Huff... If I was though, something had to have gone HORRIBLY wrong for me to end up as an unhealthy 6.

 

[IndigoSensor]

Hmm, thats pretty sweet, if true. Though I tend to have some 3 tendencies, Like wanting to be successful had been the biggest and most important part of my childhood and adolescence, as well as appearing to be awesome. I wanted to be awesome inside and out, but everyone knowing I was awesome was especially important. I did managed to make a fair bit of achievement in school though, including being the best at a few things, so its not like I was just a dreamer. I'm no extrovert though, and thats a big disparity in the me maybe having been a 3 type.
Huff... If I was though, something had to have gone HORRIBLY wrong for me to end up as an unhealthy 6.

You know, the entire setup of enneagram pretty much is about "how you are messed up" if you think about it. 6's are said to be anxious balls of stress afraid to even step on the funky looking blade of grass. 9's are directionless weaklings that will let anyone step on them and do nothing in their life. 4's are winey little complainers who wallow in self misery. 1's are nasty tyrants who will punch you in anger if you don't do what they say. There is an argument for all of them.

I'm 1w2 and my need for things to be "right" is a forced to be recokned with and can cause so much stress in me it isn't even funny. It can also lead to me being quite the bitch.

 

[KazeCraven]

Hmm, thats pretty sweet, if true. Though I tend to have some 3 tendencies, Like wanting to be successful had been the biggest and most important part of my childhood and adolescence, as well as appearing to be awesome. I wanted to be awesome inside and out, but everyone knowing I was awesome was especially important. I did managed to make a fair bit of achievement in school though, including being the best at a few things, so its not like I was just a dreamer. I'm no extrovert though, and thats a big disparity in the me maybe having been a 3 type.
Huff... If I was though, something had to have gone HORRIBLY wrong for me to end up as an unhealthy 6.

Huh. Yeah, I don't know exactly how a person shifts along a given triad, but I do know that healthy 6's become a lot like healthy 9's whereas unhealthy 6's become a lot like unhealthy 3's. Obviously taking things easy is, well, easier said than done though.

I'm still learning about the enneagram, hence this thread, but I imagine shifts along the triad are totally separate from integration and disintegration. It looks pretty similar for 3-6-9's, but the rest of us have differences in our triangles (i.e. 4's integrate to 1's, disintegrate to 2's, but move along 1-4-7? Where'd that crazy seven come from?). Either way, if your goal is to be more 9ish I don't think you're out of luck at all.

@Indigo: there's also a bright-side to it though, with healthy individuals having a given depth to them. But I like the focus on negativity as it prevents much of the Forer effect.