Are we "owed" a partner?

[Nixie]

Data is beautiful but always misses something. "Of those people who use dating apps" is the one in this case.

If I was looking for a partner and using a dating site, I have established criteria and expectations in my mind that are reflected in my actions and choices. Putting yourself on a dating app is asking people to judge whether they find you attractive or not, it's the WHOLE point of the interaction.

Asking a woman in other scenarios about whether someone is attractive or not without the implied "I want to date them" would probably yield different results.

 

[Reason]

Data is beautiful but always misses something. "Of those people who use dating apps" is the one in this case

from a SOCIAL NETWORK

Men's expectations fall into a standard bell curve

women's do not

this does not compute from an evolutionary standpoint

But all of this doesn't really have anything to do with the main topic, i just wanted to help you understand the frustration of this online group you found. Never heard of them before by the way

 

[Reason]

Here's a different version of the chart

 

[Nixie]

Yes, one of the underlying points of the incel philosophy is to point toward "femoids" and their picky nature as something wrong.

I find it interesting that the data is heavily skewed to the left but realize there is too much unknown about the data collection and protocols to have it mean anything other than women are way harsher at judging looks or attractiveness than men.

Perhaps because as women we have to establish our relationship with appearance at early ages and become critical because we are constantly forced to evaluate our looks as part of our worth. So, ask a woman to judge "looks" you get a much more critical and lower ratings.

Men, generally look at things in a more carnal nature and probably based their answers on a "would I fuck her" .

 

[invisible]

This data computes better than fine from an evolutionary standpoint.

This data is based on a digital platform which may or may not reflect real world behaviours and interactions.

This data does nothing to justify hatred of women. It's data that people who have decided to hate women will gather to themselves as some sort of justification for their hatred. They could use anything, any anecdote, any anything. They've made their decision and they're not interested in questioning their decision, they just look for any crappy evidence to support their own beliefs.

Countless other people will look at the harsh realities of dating competition and will think, "Oh well, I guess I'm not that hot LOL, hopefully I'll still find the right person for me", but these data will be used by people who have decided to hate women to formulate a generalised understanding of the responses of women, so that all women are seen as uncompromising and unrealistic in their standards.

Finally... I think this is the most important thing... whether or not women are picky in their standards is absolutely zero fucking business of anyone else but those women. It's those women's prerogative to be as picky as they prefer. It will impact on their own life, so if they're happy being that way, then it's their choice. This really comes back to the question posed in the OP for me. No... women do not owe anyone to adjust their own standards according to what is convenient or preferable or amenable to anyone else but themselves. Their standards are their own property only and no one else has a right to expect them to adjust their standards according to the convenience or wishes of anyone but themselves.

 

[acd]

I would have sympathy for someone who was lonely and not hostile and entitled about it, but incels are just hateful. I can understand people being sexually frustrated, but when you turn that frustration into dehumanization and hatred for others--that is a choice. Nobody owes anyone sex or affection. I'm not really sure what the point of all the graphs are... But as @invisible stated, one person's standards for dating are nobody else's business and not subject to the wishes of others. How is that even up for debate?

 

[Reason]

This data is based on a digital platform

several digital platforms including a social media site like facebook or snapchat or whatever that isn't necessarily geared towards dating

which may or may not reflect real world behaviours and interactions.

There may not be any humans on the internet... although there probably are.

This data does nothing to justify hatred of women

I'm sure ALL of the various dating sites who gathered this data by looking at the people using thier platform all hate women... yep, every last one of them

It's data that people who have decided to hate women will gather to themselves as some sort of justification for their hatred.

A sweeping generalization about anyone who has ever seen this graph, fuck you psychologists and sociologists- why so much hate? Also everyone in this thread has seen it so i guess we all hate women now too

They've made their decision and they're not interested in questioning their decision

another massive generalization about the people who conduct surveys or just... look at them.

but these data will be used to generalise the responses of women, so that all women are seen as uncompromising and unrealistic in their standards.

not all women, just a large number of them

Finally... I think this is the most important thing... whether or not women are picky in their standards is absolutely zero fucking business of anyone else but those women. It's those women's prerogative to be as picky as they prefer. It will impact on their own life, so if they're happy being that way, then it's their choice. This really comes back to the question posed in the OP for me. No... women do not owe you to adjust their own standards according to what is convenient or preferable or amenable to anyone else but themselves. Their standards are their own property only and no one else has a right to expect them to adjust their standards according to the convenience or wishes of anyone but themselves.

Of course, its a democracy they can do whatever they want- just like this group has the right to dislike them for doing what they want.

 

[Reason]

I would have sympathy for someone who was lonely and not hostile and entitled about it, but incels are just hateful. I can understand people being sexually frustrated, but when you turn that frustration into dehumanization and hatred for others--that is a choice. Nobody owes anyone sex or affection.

All true

I'm not really sure what the point of all the graphs are... But as @invisible stated, one person's standards for dating are nobody else's business and not subject to the wishes of others. How is that even up for debate?

Who said i was implying that people aren't allowed to have standards? I never said that

 

[Reason]

i just wanted to help you understand the frustration of this online group you found.

 

[dneecey]

I can play devils advocate.
I do quite often actually.
It’s very easy as an empath to see things from multiple perspectives.
But just because I can see someone’s side, and just because I can understand their actions, does not mean that those actions are right nor are they justified.
From my own bias anyone who has a sense of entitlement tends to leave a nasty residue in my mind and I then withdraw.
Lately there are whole generations that think they “deserve” things just by being.
Relationships and true successes of any real kind take hard work and commitment.
In my humble opinion, anything else that is gained or given without merit is just luck.
It’s a no from me.

 

[Reason]

For the record i find hating an entire group because of the actions of some individuals to be stupid. That doesn't mean however, that i'm not capable of empathizing with people who do so or that i'll ever stop trying to understand why they do so.

 

[dneecey]

For the record i find hating an entire group because of the actions of some individuals to be stupid. That doesn't mean however, that i'm not capable of empathizing with people who do so or that i'll ever stop trying to understand why they do so.

I got where your were going with it.

 

[Reason]

I got where your were going with it.

You're the first it seems

 

[invisible]

several digital platforms including a social media site like facebook or snapchat or whatever that isn't necessarily geared towards dating

There may not be any humans on the internet... although there probably are.

I'm sure ALL of the various dating sites who gathered this data by looking at the people using thier platform all hate women... yep, every last one of them

A sweeping generalization about anyone who has ever seen this graph, fuck you psychologists and sociologists- why so much hate? Also everyone in this thread has seen it so i guess we all hate women now too

another massive generalization about the people who conduct surveys or just... look at them.

not all women, just a large number of them

Of course, its a democracy they can do whatever they want- just like this group has the right to dislike them for doing what they want.

Hey sorry, I have to give you some feedback, it is just really difficult to reply to you properly when you have picked apart things I've said and chopped it up into a lot of little bits and pieces. It would be a lot easier to continue a discussion if you provided a more coherent response.

The data that you posted is derived purely from OKCupid, a dating platform, not from other platforms. No one was discussing the attitudes of the researchers who gathered or analysed the data or presented it in displays. We were discussing the reasons that people have for developing these opinions towards women - that cause them to blame or hate them or terrorise them - this data providing one of these sources for these individuals.

Yes, there are humans on the internet. How they respond on the internet is different to how they respond in person, or in alternative online social networks. There are a lot of problems with interpreting this data. For example... the data have been presented in the context of this thread as a reason that men may have to blame women for rejecting them, and being overly picky or whatever. Then again... maybe men who use OkCupid really are less attractive by comparison to population average than women who use OkCupid? That doesn't mean that women aren't sizing them up in other ways. Obviously, women are there looking at them and checking them out, regardless of this sort of attractiveness.

Of course men are free to make generalisations and despise women. They can be as embittered and hateful as they want to towards women. Although I don't know how it serves them to be this way. They're the ones complaining about their situation, not the women who are otherwise quite contentedly minding their own business.

 

[Nixie]

Haha
Hating a group, in this case, incels, is not the point. But for the record, just like racists, killers, pedophiles, I am comfortable saying there is something very wrong with the philosophy espoused by incels.

 

[Nixie]

The underlying point is that there is a specific thought that
Just by existing, being born, that a man deserves to fuck and have a partner. That societal norms of "allowing" women to have the sexual freedom to choose their sexual partners IS NOT as vital as the incel' s right to fuck.

The question becomes, are we "owed" a partner?

 

[Reason]

I don't think people are "owed" anything. Personally we're given so much nowadays that i don't think most people even deserve (myself included). Can't speak about this group though, as i've not ever heard of them before this thread and have no interest in learning- but if they do express the opinion that they're owed sex from women, then i would say they are wrong.

However there is a danger of people sometimes reading to much into things. Bemoaning the fact that you're not having sex and feeling you are entitled to it are two different things. They can bemoan their station in life all they like, but i seriously have a hard time agreeing that they are owed anything. Same goes for women expressing the same sentiment by the way.

 

[invisible]

Incels are the ones doing the hating of other groups in this situation. Expecting someone to take responsibility for their self-entitled and blaming attitude doesn't mean you don't empathise with them or what brought them there. I never said I hate them, I just think their attitude towards other people sucks, and doesn't serve them either.

 

[hush]

The question becomes, are we "owed" a partner?

No, I think that's fucking ridiculous.

Also hey Nixie, I've missed you. *hug*

 

[dneecey]

Haha
Hating a group, in this case, incels, is not the point. But for the record, just like racists, killers, pedophiles, I am comfortable saying there is something very wrong with the philosophy espoused by incels.

First I think it might be wise to state upfront that I don’t agree with the philosophy you’ve explained the incels believe. I haven’t done an ounce of research so I’m solely going on what you’ve said. And to that I am sickened by the ideas you’ve mentioned.

Secondly, it was pretty clear to me at least that your OP was already biased, perhaps rightly so, and you just wanted your own clarity that it is indeed not ok to think you are entitled to a partner. To that end, I still agree with you.

I found myself applauding @invisible and his? strong voice. How refreshing. But then being someone who just HAS to understand and see from all angles I also felt good to know that there wasn’t just one voice.

@Reason With Logic Filling was willing to push his own perspective aside and look outside of the box.

I have my own thoughts that I originally shared, but it’s because of people like these two that I am happy to be here. (Also, on a completely different side note, they are both my housemates in the Sims house, how exciting!)