You look like an INFJ/INTJ/ESFP/ENTJ etc etc BS!

[VH]

I want empirical evidence that type, personality and physical looks all coincide somehow scientifically or even remotely logically.

Physical looks are not a factor in cognitive functions. None whatsoever.

However, mannerisms, body language, and other factors of how the personality is subconsciously expressed through the many ways that people move and communicate are. Science has proven again and again that the subconscious is expressed physically due to the way the nervous system interacts with itself.

So say that someone has physical traits and is therefore some manner of type is preposterous. To claim that someone's type can be seen in their mannerisms is pretty accurate.

 

[Raccoon Love]

Physical looks are not a factor in cognitive functions. None whatsoever.

However, mannerisms, body language, and other factors of how the personality is subconsciously expressed through the many ways that people move and communicate are. Science has proven again and again that the subconscious is expressed physically due to the way the nervous system interacts with itself.

So say that someone has physical traits and is therefore some manner of type is preposterous. To claim that someone's type can be seen in their mannerisms is pretty accurate.

Agreed.

 

[Zero Angel]

I'm gonna straight up disagree with Billy here. Lacking the capacity or willingness to understand something wont make it go away.

I do believe our life experiences and feelings tend to manifest on our face as we age, the development and outlay of smile lines is one of the more obvious examples. Another example here is in the eyes themselves, while eye shape is determined mostly by genetics, eye expression is determined by how the person assesses his environment and uses his eyes to articulate his feelings. To completely erase VI's validity, you would need to first disprove these points.

 

[Billy]

Again, traits like expression can be picked up from other people... how do you know which traits are genuine and which are mimicry?

And its easy to disagree with someone and tell them they lack the capacity to understand when you are arguing something on faith. ZA looking at you.

 

[Billy]

Physical looks are not a factor in cognitive functions. None whatsoever.

However, mannerisms, body language, and other factors of how the personality is subconsciously expressed through the many ways that people move and communicate are. Science has proven again and again that the subconscious is expressed physically due to the way the nervous system interacts with itself.

So say that someone has physical traits and is therefore some manner of type is preposterous. To claim that someone's type can be seen in their mannerisms is pretty accurate.

I have yet to see any two of any type LOOK like anything in common. Unless we are cherry picking their pictures.

So what are common INFJ expressions?

I vote that we don't really have any... I am pretty non expressive, so is every other INFJ I have ever met in person. So lack of expression = expression? It just seems so absurd...

if anything I would say you can tell if someone is an introvert or an extrovert via clues in their picture, like how many people they're with, how they are interacting with people, but a posed picture just looking at the camera, I call bullshit and I want proof that type manifests in facial expressions.

"science has proven" is not authority enough for me to believe something. And you cant say that just because some subconscious manifests itself physically as expression that that somehow = we can tell type through expression.

Especially since the subconscious mind isnt where your type actually exists, your type is part of your rational mind with all the crap left over being part of the subconscious.

If anything subconsciously we physically manifest our shadow functions.

 

[IndigoSensor]

I call bullshit and I want proof that type manifests in facial expressions.

Sorry, but I don't think you are going to get that from any of us. This is something that can't be proven nor disproven with pure accuracy. The fact is there are some of us who do see patterns within this internally and it works for us. Demanding proof for such a thing will yield nothing. I understand that you are venting your frusteration over this because you don't do this, but other people do, and it does work for us, and largely does not cause a problem.

 

[Billy]

Its not so much that i dont do this, its that its really quite unfounded on any kind of reality. There is so much differentiation between 2 people of the same type in general that pretending they all look a similar way is nuts.

If we can prove the claim why use it? That's called astrology or alchemy.

It does a disservice to what MBTI actually is meant to stand for.

That it is irresponsible to use such ideas so openly is what offends me. Because its basically religion at that point, claims backed by faith, it corrupts the minds of people with wrong data.

If there is some actual truth behind it I would be curious to know, but I think that there probably isnt much. Differences between the same type are so pronounced based on actions and the way we perceive our reality that pretending that somehow we will have similarities in looks and clothes, utter nonsense.

Its the vagueness akin to astrology that annoys me... if I ran around saying people were feeling this or that or looked like this or that or were supposed to based on their star signs you would all think I was simple minded. This is the same thing.

 

[IndigoSensor]

Do you see people taking stuff like this by blind faith? No. People take this as a use for them if they can actually apply it for themselves. Many of these things are not unfounded because internal evidence within that person is unseen. People use this because they find use in it. It is certainly not blind faith nor is it unfounded. Our belief in such things causes you nor anyone else any real harm.

The vast majority of the people on here take these ideas and investigate them, and don't take them at face value. It's not utter nonsense to think that the majority of people within a personality type will share physical behaviors, characteristics, mannerisms, etc. If you don't think that then it completely devoids any purpose of use in personality theory. Inner personality does dictate external behavior and there are patterns within it. What is MBTI but a big series of patterns and assumptions. It's not perfect and people will try to find their own interpretations of it within the confines of what the theory explains. This forums is full of different kinds of theories and ideas, and not all of them are completely right, nor are they completely wrong.

 

[Zero Angel]

You want proof, Billy? Why don't you go look for it and then come back with your answers, and THEN make a post about why VI/physiognomy, so that we all can benefit from it. Rather than asking us to do the work for you?

And its easy to disagree with someone and tell them they lack the capacity to understand when you are arguing something on faith. ZA looking at you.

Wrong. Faith assumes either trust or laziness. I don't inherently trust ideas until I test them out and validate their utility (like astrology, which I don't believe in). Lacking the capacity is a different matter entirely, much like I can say, with good faith that I presently lack the capacity to score above 180 on most IQ tests. Of course I couldnt prove this to you unless I logged all my scores on the IQ tests or put up a youtube video of me taking the IQ tests. Why would I want to do that?

 

[enfp can be shy]

how does a personality effect the forumulation of specific genetic DNA that causes a specific look?

Look goes way beyond DNA. Just go through the photos of specific types on this site: http://www.typetango.com/ . Even counting the typing mistakes people make, there still are patterns forming. I also know more than 1 person from each MBTI type (i mean, knowing them personally), and they do have similarities, extended to lists of famous people of that type, or such websites. Just increase the pool of data.

What you are saying is: my data doesn't form patterns, hence your data must be wrong. Well, I can't transfer my human database to everyone, unfortunately, which doesn't automatically invalidate my insight.

I've been interested in gathering a large sample of head photos for each type, and then use computation to construct the medium face for each one. And see if those averages are truly distinct.

Summary: people with the same DNA could have different MBTI types, but look differently as a result.
Call it one big role-playing if you wish. Like the Vinegar Tasters.
And no, I don't think you could completely mimic it. You could to some extent, but there will be details that tell. Because we are talking about years, decades, of controlling your muscles in specific ways. This causes you wrinkles, forms your body in some ways, which cannot be overcome in a short period of time (also too much of the process is most likely subconscious, that is, you are not really controlling it, and if you try to, you won't get the same results).

 

[sassafras]

Again, traits like expression can be picked up from other people... how do you know which traits are genuine and which are mimicry?

That's a rather simplistic way of looking at it. Yes, mannerisms can be picked up from other people, but generally you mimic something that agrees with you rather than something that is out of your character. If you're the type of person who is generally melancholy, you're going to be hard-pressed to develop a significant enough rapport with a person who smiles a lot unless you yourself begin to mirror that behavior. In which case, you will cease to exhibit said melancholy behavior because the mind-body connection is intrinsically linked; you can't "fake" genuine body-language. And you certainly can't fake genuine body-language long enough to make a significant alteration in your appearance. If you don't believe me, I challenge you to look up a few studies. You behave the way you feel and you feel the way you behave. That's the whole idea behind "fake it till you make it." With time, you become the way you act.

This is why I stand by the argument that expressions, especially frequent expressions, can have a significant impact on your mannerisms and the way you are perceived, whether its behavior or appearance. And the way you are perceived by others is often the reinforcing factor in which helps cement your identity (and your cluster of behaviors). If enough people respond to you in a positive, smiling manner, you will find yourself becoming more positive and smiling in return and your mannerisms, habits, expressions, behaviors, etc. will end up changing too. It becomes a part of who you are and most of your expressions will begin to reflect on the traits you possess... which in turn, tone facial muscles and wrinkle the skin in a way that will have a permanent affect on your appearance. Is it a significant tell-all of type? Probably not, but it might be a contributing factor nonetheless.

As for genuine expressions vs. mimicry, most people are actually able to pick up on it. Ever walk away from having spent time with someone who said all the right things and was smiling and laughing all night and yet you still had the impression that they were insecure or perhaps insincere? As an INFJ especially, you would have easily up on those micro-expressions that gave them away. Your body language and vocal register are the most honest, open components of human communication and they can tell a lot about what you are thinking or feeling or how you habitually think or feel. They can't be easily mimicked or faked.

 

[TheLastMohican]

if anything I would say you can tell if someone is an introvert or an extrovert via clues in their picture, like how many people they're with, how they are interacting with people, but a posed picture just looking at the camera, I call bullshit and I want proof that type manifests in facial expressions.

Some people might be trying to match Myers-Briggs types with certain facial expressions in a specific sense; others are noting tendencies to make certain expressions, which correlate with type but may not have direct causality. I think you're painting with too broad a brush in your dismissal.

It would not surprise me much if personality type

 

[VH]

Well, if this isn't possible, how is it that I'm now close to 75% accurate with people I meet, and with the other 25% rarely off by more than one letter? When I meet people, I watch them and then type them to myself. Later, I suggest that they take a test, and my initial assessments before getting to know the person are right a ridiculous amount of time.

The simple fact of the matter is you're refuting something that you, yourself cannot do, based on no other fact that you, yourself, cannot do it.

This would be like saying a human being cannot bench press 1,000 pounds due to simple physiology and the assumption (note the use of the word assumption) that it is physically impossible for someone to bench press more than double their body weight, and primarily the fact that you cannot bench press 400 pounds.

And yet, it can happen...

[youtube]BlDWdfTAx8o[/youtube]

(And before anyone asks, no, that's not me spotting in the top left, even though the guy looks and moves like my twin)

But, let's take this scenario a step further... this woman bench pressed 2.75 times her body weight!

[youtube]Wpw-NcYXDIQ[/youtube]

Just when someone declares something impossible, human beings consistently prove them wrong.

Just because your Ni hasn't been able to spot this pattern does not mean that it doesn't exist, and most importantly that some of us haven't been able to tap into is. This is what Ni does. It sees patterns, very subtle patterns, that defy conventional logic. If you really are an INFJ, and therefore Ni dominant, and if you focus on this, I guarantee you will see this pattern - so long as you make your Fe drop the belief that you can't.

 

[Billy]

Yeah typing based on looks is possible because some woman lifted 2.75 times her own weight, and I dont believe in it, simply because I cant do it... yuo sure are an ENFJ VH. Thats for sure you remind me a lot of my ENFJ friend Dan, he leaps to wrong conclusions like that all the time too.

Thats you're right 75% of the time (bare in mind that 99.3339495% of all statistics are made up on the spot) Really doesn't mean anything other then that you guess right 3 out of 4 times (im willing to bet you're usually a few ticks off, but "close" pardon me if I dont take things on peoples words anymore. People lie. Not saying you are, but you could definitely be confusing yourself by seeing what you want to see.

I also find it interesting that a number of moderators all jumped in on this at the same time, are my spidy senses tingly or am I paranoid here?

Again, lets forget about Billy for just a second and non issues, and focus on what we are taking about.

How can we prove that type is shown via expression? I say its not, what say you, and what have you to back those claims up with?

In a lame attempt at humor I will say its not possible because nothing is possible because some guy couldnt do something some time in a completely unrelated sequence of events.

 

[sassafras]

I apologize for the mini-derailment, but I personally felt that this should addressed:

I also find it interesting that a number of moderators all jumped in on this at the same time, are my spidy senses tingly or am I paranoid here?

LOL.

I think you are being a bit paranoid here, Billy. Moderators are also members that are very active on the forums; in a hot topic of discussion, it's not unusual to see a bunch of us giving our piece. Just because a cluster of us disagree with a non-moderator doesn't necessarily mean that this member is automatically being persecuted by the administration for having a different opinion. (I sincerely hope no one else feels that way!) It just happens that the moderators, as individuals, disagree with what that person has to say.

Then again, if you continue to feel you are somehow being persecuted and singled out by the administration, there is always the option of mediation (private or public, your choice) to sort things out. In which case, I invite you to pm one of the moderators and we can have that arranged for you. In the meantime, I'd like to respectfully ask us to steer the discussion back onto topic, which is: Is It Possible To Tell, With Any Sort of Accuracy, A Person's MBTI Type From Physical Appearance or Facial Expressions Alone?

 

[Billy]

I'm not saying im being persecuted, I am not even saying youre all ganging up on me. I just thought it was interesting that you all showed up at the exact same time more or less. Moderators also speak candidly to each other behind the scenes about threads as well, and many times will come up with a consensus view. Not saying that thats what this is, I just found it curious and interesting. My days of challenging the powers that be are long done, but I can still muse... I wasnt certain though which is why I asked if I was being paranoid, but lets not pretend the coincidences dont exist.

I am Ni dominant after all I make connections about things.

 

[slant]

I_I -sigh-

-considers blocking the psychology part of this forum as well-

 

[magister343]

I don't think that inborn physical traits are a good marker of personality, but more than just the current facial expressions are. Facial muscles associated with often used expressions get stronger than those of rarely used expressions, creating a subtle difference some of us at least subconsciously can recognize regardless of the current expression. A more obvious marker of habitual facial expressions though would be the pattern of someone's wrinkles, although that is less useful in young people. Posture is another think worth noticing.


Data based on long term trends in expression would tend to be more indicative of personality than the expressions a person makes visible at the time of the analysis. The other end of the spectrum is a useful typing tool too though, as micro-expressions cannot be feigned. Photographs cannot show how expressions change, and so are not nearly as useful as video or seeing someone in person.

 

[TheLastMohican]

I just thought it was interesting that you all showed up at the exact same time more or less.

It doesn't look like a group appearance to me, just TDHT and VH posting back to back. Before that, Indy, Shai, Arby and I all posted throughout, from the beginning. Nothing synchronized.

 

[SweetDreams]

You know, I think that maybe you'd be interested in the following link:

http://similarminds.com/face/photo_typing_jung_test.php

I came across it on similarminds and found that I failed miserably at typing people (although I was generally better at identifying NFs). I also agree with what other people have been saying. It's hard to type people from a photo (In pictures I'm always smiling, but if you observed me alone irl when I wasn't consciously manipulating my expressions to not come across as sad/depressed/whatever, you'd notice that I have quite an expressionless/neutral/sad-looking face).