What do you guys think about Arizona's new immigration law? | INFJ Forum

What do you guys think about Arizona's new immigration law?

Discussion in 'News and Politics' started by acd, May 2, 2010.

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  1. acd

    acd Well-known member

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  2. arbygil

    arbygil Passing through

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    I hate it. Seems absolutely barbaric and horrific to me. This country was built on the shoulders of immigrants (some forced into this country). They help run our country. Surely there's room for everyone here without splitting families. This is just hateful to me.

    Not much more I can say about it, other than that.
     
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  3. Chessie

    Chessie Community Member

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    To be quite honest, I think the new immigration law is brilliant.

    In each instance in the whole history of this country when elements of the conservative, moralist right have 'cracked down' on something they cause such strife that the country swings just a little further to the left and the oppressed minority gets a more sane way of dealing with their problems when the law is overturned.


    Think about it. The conservative parties have cracked down on homosexuality, rights for blacks, rights for women, drugs, atheism, human sexuality...and what happens every time? They completely alienate the non-crazies that makes up the majority and instead of bringing about their 'moral utopia' they create a more effective underground and a human rights cause which eventually, inevitably triumphs.

    So yes, crack down on illegal immigration. Give it a good whipping. You'll just collapse Arizona's economy further, alienate your white population, make the coyote's who sneak people across the border richer, build up your prison population, and eventually be unable to pay your police force.
     
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  4. IndigoSensor

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    I am gonna get blasted for this

    I know I will get torn down for this, but I will speak it. I am in support of this law. I think it is a little harsh yes, but it needs to be done. Imigration is a SERIOUS problem in this country, and very little that has been done is effective at stopping it. I seriously doubt that law inforcement agents will be so crass as to use this as a way to racially profile people. People are not that cruel. Besides, it isn't like the law inforcement isn't immune to inacting this. If they were found of racial profiling, then they should no longer be in the force. People are so quick to call the race card. That isn't to say there is no validity to it, but it is being very overplayed here. The whole basis for the resistance to this is people think it's unfair. Well, its unfair that these people are coming into the country ILLEGALLY. If they want to be here so bad, they need to go through the exact same process that legal immagrints have gone through. At the very least, they need to try and become legal. If they become legal, they should have to carry their papers and indentification with them. At least until this problem is evened out more, then that regulation can be loosened up.

    If people refuse to be here legally, they deserve to get a swift kick back to where they came from. I support this law, and it needs to go through. The kinks can be worked out once the law is put into pratice for a while.
     
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  5. Raccoon Love

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    This, perfectly. I think this is extremely discriminatory. Immigrants have always sustained this country, and it is sad to see them being discriminated in such a way. They contribute to the economy immensely and have done jobs many Americans refuse to do. Many of the people who claim to hate this law are being sort of hypocrites as they themselves came from immigrant ancestry.. whether during the potato famine, colonization period, or World war 1 era.
     
    #5 Raccoon Love, May 2, 2010
    Last edited: May 2, 2010
  6. Satya

    Satya C'est la vie
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    I support it.
     
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  7. OP
    acd

    acd Well-known member

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    My qualm is that is asserts that the citizens of Arizona fitting a certain description are guilty until proven innocent. I'm concerned with innocent civilians being harassed by law enforcement--just cuz law enforcement can now.

    I'm not really one to revere the constitution anyways but I do like the part where it says: Innocent until proven guilty.

    I think that's in there for a good reason, because a government that asserts it's citizens are guilty until proven innocent is tyrannical. They will not only be apprehending illegal immigrants, but I'm sure they will mistake citizens or even use this as an excuse to harass.

    I was watching CNN yesterday and a sargeant from somewhere in Arizona stated that all high speed police chases where from fleeing illegal immigrants. That can't be. He actually said this on the news, the reporter asked him if he was sure and the cop stood by his statement. (I need to see if I can find the clip.. drats.)

    If this goes by and no one fights it, what next? The government has already got their foot in the door on having our permission to judge us as guilty until proven innocent and invade privacy on the Patriot Act, so what's next?

    If illegal immigration is a problem, then there must be other ways to solve it. Illegal immigrants are able to live here, they must be working. If anything, crack down on employers who hire II.

    I'm disappointed in this law because I don't think it was really well thought out. It seems to be a frantic response to the issue.

    I think we'd really be jumping ahead of ourselves here by putting a lot of faith into this law without really evaluating how it is going to affect people.

    It just seems so absurd to stop someone for looking different or speaking in a foreign language and demand to see proof that they have a right to be here. It's demeaning and insulting and way backwards.
     
    #7 acd, May 2, 2010
    Last edited: May 2, 2010
  8. Satya

    Satya C'est la vie
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    That comes from English jurisprudence. It isn't in our Constitution.
     
  9. Raccoon Love

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    I just do not think it is right to question someone because of the way they appear if they are illegal or not, that is totally discriminatory such as when the nazis were questioning for jewish ancestry during the second world war. I know its a serious problem,but does it really have to get to this point? why no take care of the so illegals that do not contribute to this economy? there are plenty of immigrants who are helping substain this nation, they contribute immensely to the economy and are trying their best to adapt. They have also brought kids who are innocent, have been accustomed to an American life, know the language and the history,s peak English more than any other language..I do not think its fair said illegals should be reported..and why don't they come the legal way? in said poor countries it is nearly impossible to get documentation legally as they do not have the resources in any way, these people are desperate and can even afford paying to do this legally. I know this because I myself came from a poor Italian family, and to be able to come to this country legally took quite the effort. Now imagine coming from a third world country..how hard is it for them?
     
  10. IndigoSensor

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    Never the less it is still a good notion.

    I don't really think this is a "guilty until proven innocent" type law. They police stations will likely have a way to track people they check, and they are proven to be here legally. This way, if they same person is picked up more then once, they can see if they are indeed being tracked and profiled wrongfully.

    I garuntee you, if this law in inacted, and people are picked on and harassed unfairly, people will get up in arms about it and it will be repealed. Therefore showing it indeed was a bad law, and they can create a new one.
     
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  11. Satya

    Satya C'est la vie
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    It is and has been against federal law to be in the country illegally. Open borders cause a lot of human rights problems.
     
  12. OP
    acd

    acd Well-known member

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    Regardless, it's how our courts operate. It's how we as citizens are treated.


    And... what of my point in reference to that?
    Do you disagree with the point of including that statement in there?

    You must be in one of your haughty know it all moods, eh?
     
    #12 acd, May 2, 2010
    Last edited: May 2, 2010
  13. OP
    acd

    acd Well-known member

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    I won't deny that there are certain problems as a result of illegal immigration.

    But I am hesitant to back a law that could potentially cause innocent people harassment and maybe harm as they are grouped in with those who are breaking the law. That does not seem just.
     
    #13 acd, May 2, 2010
    Last edited: May 2, 2010
  14. IndigoSensor

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    This isnt like Nazi Germany though. These people have full right to be chased after because they are here illegally and are breaking the law. It will be based on appereances in some respect yes, and that is an unfortonate side product of this, but it isn't like people are going to have their lives thrown out of whack if they are here legally. It does need to get to this point because this a serious problem.

    Because they are here ILLEGALLY. If they are living in this country with no kind of documentation, visa, green card, whatever, then they do not deserve care and support (outside of emergancy room visits and what not that is offered to vacationers and such). They are helping this nation, but what is stopping them from going through the process of becoming a citizen. If they aren't going to go through that and clearly ignore it, they have no right being here.

    I am gonna sound cold, but we can't solve everyones problems in the world. If they can't get here beccause of fincacial reasons then... oh well. there is only so much we can do, and just opening our doors to people will crush our own economy. It is sad yes, but we can't save the world, and if someone can't get here by their own devices or the help of some private party then that's that. They need to try to make ends meet where they are or try to go somewhere else.
     
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  15. bamf

    bamf Is Watching You
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    I love how the governor says they won't support racial profiling, but how else can they support this law? Aren't a huge majority of illegal immigrants in Arizona Hispanic? I doubt that many white people will be asked "for their papers".

    And for immigrating "legally"--I'm sure as hell my ancestors didn't.

    [​IMG]
     
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    #15 bamf, May 2, 2010
    Last edited: May 2, 2010
  16. Satya

    Satya C'est la vie
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    You haven't read the law. It asserts that officers must first make "lawful contact". The legal definition of such means they must already be under suspicion of having committed a crime. Next, the bill asserts that the officer must have "reasonable suspicion" that the individual is an illegal alien. This goes beyond skin color or manner of speaking because the law directly asserts that race alone can't be used to demand proof of citizenship.

    As such, there is nothing in the law which supports your assertion. You are simply assuming that local law enforcement officers are going to abuse the power.
     
  17. OP
    acd

    acd Well-known member

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    Yes, yes I am assuming that.
     
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  18. Kavalan

    Kavalan Has risen

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    4th and 14th amendment should pretty much throw this one out. To solve the "out of control" problem simply put a relaxation of immigration laws would allow more people admission and hasten the system; coupled with the legalization of marijuana would cut into the drug trade and that route would be controllable.

    simply put I should be able to go a week without having any form of ID on me and not be bothered.

    Also the whole stealing jobs from Americans is total horse shit father and uncles ran ranches... "Americans" do one day of work making post holes and quit. Whereas the "immigrants" legal or otherwise will. my roommate refuses to apply for fast food jobs saying they are "below" him. Entitlement ftw.

    There is more to this but wine is clouding my mind and I'll try and elaborate later.
     
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  19. Satya

    Satya C'est la vie
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    Then it is Arizona's problem. If a local officer decides to bug Hispanic citizens using this law, then it would be a violation of their 14th amendment rights, Section 1.

    Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

    The state would be sued, lose a lot of money and the law would likely be overturned by a high court. As such, it falls on Arizona to train their local law enforcement to be very careful about who they question.
     
  20. magister343

    magister343 Permanent Fixture

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    I have trouble getting upset over this particular bill. It doesn't really do that much in the grand scheme of things.

    I have a much simpler and more effective plan to eliminate illegal immigration: make all immigration legal. While I recognize that federal immigration regulations are constitutional, I consider them unjust.

    Ok, I can accept some minor regulations to keep out those carrying contagious diseases as well as fugitives from justice. I can also see the value in border checks and arresting those trying to bring in bring in contraband, including weapons, drugs (although I think legalizing, heavily taxing, and leaving the decision on whether to ban to localities is a better policy than banning these outright), and of course slaves (especially those intended for child prostitution). However, I do not accept the validity of implementing any quota system, or in requiring immigrants apply for any sort of visa or green card.

    Since I'd be amending the constitution anyway, I would also go ahead and abolish jus soli citizenship, not turning to jus sanguinis but rather making everyone go through the same process to become citizens regardless of happenstance of birth. Citizenship ought not be some vague social contract, but an actual written contract each individual has the option to make with the state only after sufficient testing to demonstrate informed consent.
     
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    #20 magister343, May 2, 2010
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