What do you guys think about Arizona's new immigration law?

[Satya]

Well, if you want to be technical, we had a major role in it.

What's the issue?
Corn.
Mainly, American corn subsidies and NAFTA.
The numbers we're looking at are over a million Mexicans losing their agricultural jobs since NAFTA went into effect in 1994. Tariffs that protected the industry ended in January 2008. Thus, these farmers were put into direct competition with U.S. farmers. Do you even need examples that compare the two in technology? If you look at the Department of Agriculture, a U.S. farm can produce up to a metric ton of corn in a half-hour (and this is probably not up-to-date information). America is exporting this corn to Mexico. We're forcing these people to find work in other places and their isn't enough jobs in their own cities, i.e. coming to the United States to find work and to, hopefully, bring that money back to their families. We're talking about a rational attempt at survival.

The worst part? We expected it. Nader is reported as estimation that

 

[Kavalan]

It's not varify your existence, it's to varify your right to be apart of the nation.

Do realy think that having to cary a small piece of plastic is such a terrible thing. I doubt this lae will lead to cops stoping every citizen on the street to check there papers, just as cops don't stop drivers just see if they have there license.

However if you commited some sort of crime and were found without citizeneship then your could easily be deealt with accordingly.

It is less about it being terrible but rather I shouldn't need to think about it. I walk to campus, I leave my wallet at home more often than not. I've had police in town slow down and stare at me(casing me) and one went so far as to pull a U turn to follow me more. All I was doing was walking... if this were to happen in AZ and they stopped me without my wallet then what? sounds like I'm SOL since it sounds as if I were to refuse to produce papers is acceptance of guilt (used in traffic stops and sobriety tests) and I'm getting a ride.

 

[Satya]

True, to a point. But I can't think of any nation that addresses immigration issues fairly and equitably, unless they open their borders. There's not an easy answer to this question. There are too many people who will get hurt by forced migration, and putting rules and restrictions this late in the game is closing the barn door after the horses left years ago.

The real question is: What's best for the economy, and what's best from a human rights perspective? What's the ethical thing to do? Those are the only questions that require answers at this point.

Open borders would be pretty disastrous for us. It would drain our economy within years and destroy our welfare and health care systems. It would also threaten our security. There is already a drug war that is barely being contained at the border.

 

[That Girl]

Subsidizing corn is a major problem in our country. Most of our food has corn in it, and most the food that our food eats is corn.

However, that does not qualify Mexico's problems. We need to end the cycle.

The reason Mexico can't sell its corn is because we can sell our corn for super cheap. We are ruining their economy through our supposed "free trade". It's the same thing we do in Jamaica with dairy products.

 

[Raccoon Love]

Open borders would be pretty disastrous for us. It would drain our economy within years and destroy our welfare and health care systems. It would also threaten our security.

I do not agree with open borders. but at least give them the opportunity to come. legally. Many can't due to resources, well then make this resources available. Let those who have a desire t learn the language, culture, and help the US economy come, those who do not wish to do so not. Those who violate the law, or after a long period of time decide to not naturally become citizens should be deported, however, register this individuals, give them the rights and needs they deserve and let them know that they can become legal. Many fear said process due to the fact that they might be deported, take away that fear and as long as they have done everything they needed to do let them stay.

 

[Barnabas]

It is less about it being terrible but rather I shouldn't need to think about it. I walk to campus, I leave my wallet at home more often than not. I've had police in town slow down and stare at me(casing me) and one went so far as to pull a U turn to follow me more. All I was doing was walking... if this were to happen in AZ and they stopped me without my wallet then what? sounds like I'm SOL since it sounds as if I were to refuse to produce papers is acceptance of guilt (used in traffic stops and sobriety tests) and I'm getting a ride.

Appeal it in court, you can do the same thing with your drivers license, if you have the proper documents tickets or fines disapear. What if you were driving a car, should I not need to cary that either.

Do you just expect the cops to grab you and dump you off at the border?

 

[the]

Some might. But not for the pay. People want jobs to feed their family or to have certain comforts. Even if illegal immigrants didn't take the jobs, I'm sure someone in the US would take those jobs for less pay than they should receive, but I doubt it happens that often.

I see a lot of Hispanic men willing to stand out on a street corner in a group, waiting for a truck to pick them up to take them to a job they've never seen. I've yet to see a group of similar White males or Black males waiting on a corner, doing the same thing. Not saying it doesn't occur, but I haven't seen it.

What do you mean they dont want the pay? Of course they do. That is what provides the food and special comforts. I personally know people who want to do stereotypical mexican type work and some of it is very well paying. (6 figure incomes doing drywall jobs, etc)

Of course you dont see that. They can apply for jobs because they are citizens and can work here legally. Not to mention if a white or black person went to the group to stand and wait for a job they would probably get beat up for trying to take their work away.

 

[bamf]

Appeal it in court, you can do the same thing with your drivers license, if you have the proper documents tickets or fines disapear. What if you were driving a car, should I not need to cary that either.

Appealing in court costs time and money for something that you shouldn't be subjected to in the first place.

It's illegal to drive without a license, it's not illegal to walk without ID, nor should it be.

 

[Barnabas]

Appealing in court costs time and money for something that you shouldn't be subjected to in the first place.

It's illegal to drive without a license, it's not illegal to walk without ID, nor should it be.

it's not an expensive process to have a appeal, it's not like there is a full trial and investigation.

simply show up and show your I.D.

And in AZ, it is illegal appearently.

 

[Kavalan]

Appeal it in court, you can do the same thing with your drivers license, if you have the proper documents tickets or fines disapear. What if you were driving a car, should I not need to cary that either.

Do you just expect the cops to grab you and dump you off at the border?

A. The Officer's act of tailing me is profiling against my age
B. Yes I can appeal a laundry list of things, but it still doesn't change the fact I should now be required to tell anyone of authority that I'm a citizen on demand. Simply put they better have a warrant for such papers and a damn good reason as I will go get a lawyer to fight it.
C. No I don't expect to be dropped at the border but I'm not going to be treated well/fairly I know an ex-district judge who told me how he worked a part time district and had more cases go through his courtroom in 8 months than the Concord(capital) district court. and the average age of his cases was 20.

In short there may be good police but most(all I have interacted with) have a propensity to profile and generate a superiority complex.

 

[bamf]

it's not an expensive process to have a appeal, it's not like there is a full trial and investigation.

simply show up and show your I.D.

And in AZ, it is illegal appearently.

It doesn't matter how much it costs, it's still an unneeded expense and wasted time for something that shouldn't happen.

And it shouldn't be illegal to walk without ID.

 

[Raccoon Love]

it's not an expensive process to have a appeal, it's not like there is a full trial and investigation.

simply show up and show your I.D.

And in AZ, it is illegal appearently.

And since when were the states granted so much power as to racially discriminate somebody? reminds me to much of the southern racial ideologies of the last century..or the articles of confederation which have proven to fail for obvious reasons. Arizona is simply hurting itself, as it is a state with a huge Hispanic population. The passing of this bill will severely hurt the economy.

 

[Barnabas]

And since when were the states granted so much power as to racially discriminate somebody? reminds me to much of the southern racial ideologies of the last century..or the articles of confederation which have proven to fail for obvious reasons. Arizona is simply hurting itself, as it is a state with a huge his hispanic population. The passing of this bill will severely hurt the economy.

I highly doubt it will hurt the economy, I can see little reason for it too.

If we had borders with other countries would this still be a problem of race, what if a similar bill was enacted along our Canadian border. Would that still be racist.

 

[Kavalan]

I highly doubt it will hurt the economy, I can see little reason for it too.

If we had borders with other countries would this still be a problem of race, what if a similar bill was enacted along our Canadian border. Would that still be racist.

AZ will hurt it's creating a big enough shitstorm people will notice.

and as for the Canadian border as far as the 14th amendment is concerned only with the Quebecois and still an issue of the 4th amendment

 

[That Girl]

I highly doubt it will hurt the economy, I can see little reason for it too.

The damage done by immigrants to the economy is hardly a blip on the radar. They may take jobs but they also create them. They need the same things we do and that creates jobs. Wealth is actually increased, on the overall, by illegal immigrants. The effect, however, is small. It's probably about a 1% net gain.

 

[Barnabas]

AZ will hurt it's creating a big enough shitstorm people will notice.

and as for the Canadian border as far as the 14th amendment is concerned only with the Quebecois and still an issue of the 4th amendment

No such thing as bad publicity as the saying goes.

I see little how the 14th ammendment effects Quebecois? enlighten me please.

The 4th ammendment portects from unnecisarry search and seisure of property except under probable cause, that would be held up so long as cops arn't going about willy nilly with I.D. checks.

If it is treated as drivers license is then the only time it would be checked is if the person has already done something questianable.

 

[Kavalan]

quebecois are french accent canadians they stick out a bit upon hearing them.

The fact that police are willy nilly with the IDs...

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers,
and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be
violated; and no Warrants shall issue but upon probable cause, supported
by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be
searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

you are narrowing the scope of property

 

[Barnabas]

quebecois are french accent canadians they stick out a bit upon hearing them.

The fact that police are willy nilly with the IDs...

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers,
and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be
violated; and no Warrants shall issue but upon probable cause, supported
by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be
searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

you are narrowing the scope of property

The police, from my experience are more the good with there I.D. checks in terms of drivers license, my friend got pulled over not having all his papers and got off with a warning and ticket for speeding.

The fact is that abuse of the law is like IS said, not nearly that common place.

And if it does happen then take the officer to court and have him charged for his crimes and have him pay for the grievences it causes you.


The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers,
and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be
violated; and no Warrants shall issue but upon probable cause, supported
by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be
searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

I've noted several times that the cops should and most likley will only check if your already under violation of another law.

 

[Kavalan]

Probable cause is so broad I got stopped for a crossing a double yellow line on a dirt road... think that one through.

You say it isn't common I have judge I can email that says otherwise.

 

[Barnabas]

Probable cause is so broad I got stopped for a crossing a double yellow line on a dirt road... think that one through.

You say it isn't common I have judge I can email that says otherwise.

We need statistics not our individual observations your judges word has no more power then my own, we need a study with statistics, which I'm trying to find(with no luck).

Was there a readily visable line, why did you cross it? for all I know you deserved it or the cop could have just been an ass.