[ENTJ] - The First 2020 Presidential Debate (Biden vs Trump) | Page 14 | INFJ Forum

[ENTJ] The First 2020 Presidential Debate (Biden vs Trump)

Discussion in 'News and Politics' started by Pin, Sep 30, 2020.

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Who won the debate?

Poll closed Sep 30, 2020.
  1. Biden.

    2 vote(s)
    50.0%
  2. Trump.

    2 vote(s)
    50.0%
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  1. Icedream

    Icedream Blue Butterfly

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    I have to disagree. I watched the debate live, and what I heard and saw, when Trump was pressed about condemning white supremacy, he was very avoidant. At best, he said "sure," which is highly concerning. He then went on to feign ignorance to any white supremacist groups, needing the moderator to name one for him. Instead of condemning them, saying "I don't support this group or what it stands for," (Even bush was able to lie and say "I did not have sexual relations with that woman,) What he said was "Proud boys, stand back and stand by."

    Please explain to me how that was taken out of context.
     
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  2. Maikl Jexocuha

    Maikl Jexocuha Space Cowboy
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    I agreed with much of what you said, but just a small correction:

    That was Clinton who said that.

    But otherwise, right on.
     
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  3. Icedream

    Icedream Blue Butterfly

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  4. Maikl Jexocuha

    Maikl Jexocuha Space Cowboy
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  5. Hostarius

    Hostarius Dad Bodinem

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    I also watched the debate live.

    This is how it went down:


    Here's a transcript of that clip I put together:
    Moderator: '... You have repeatedly criticised the vice president for not specifically calling out Antifa and other left wing extremist groups, but are you willing - tonight - to condemn white supremacist and militia groups [Trump: sure] and to say that they need to stand down and not add to the violence in a number of these cities as we saw in Kenosha, and as we've seen in Portland?

    Trump: Sure I'm willing to do that, [Moderator: Are you prepared to specifically...] [Biden: do it] but I would say [Moderator: well go ahead, Sir], I would say almost everything I see is from the left wing, not from the right wing [Moderator: So what do you, what are you (unitelligible)]. I'm, I'm willing to do anything. I want to see peace [Moderator: Well, then say it, Sir.] [Biden: Say it, do it, say it.] You want to call them... what do you want to call them? Give me a name, give me a name.

    Moderator: White supremacists and [Trump: Go ahead, who would you like me to condemn?] [Biden: White supremacists] [Biden: Proud Boys] and white supremacists and right-wing [Biden: The Proud Boys] militia.

    Trump: Proud Boys: stand back and stand by, but I'll tell you what. I'll tell you what. Somebody's got to do something about Antifa and the left because this is not a right-wing [Biden: His own FBI director said (unintelligible) white supremacist....] problem, this is a left-wing [Biden: ...Antifa's an idea, not an organisation] Oh you gotta be kidding [Biden: That's what his... his FBI director said] It's an idea? OK


    Now, I'm no fan of Trump - far from it - but to me, attempting to look at this through as objective a lens as possible, it seems as if Trump's answer was simply constructed to appease the Moderator and Biden based on what he was specifically primed with.

    He was asked to say that 'the Proud Boys' should 'stand down' by Biden and the moderator, and he did pretty much exactly that while trying to deflect attention on to Antifa. It was delivered with a attitude of limited patience because it sounds like something he's been asked a million times before, and he was willing to say practically whatever was asked of him.

    It's very clear that this was not a premeditated 'dog whistle', because he was primed with both 'stand down' and 'the Proud Boys' by his interlocutors.

    As for 'stand by', I think it's also more likely that Trump meant this in the sense of 'don't do anything' rather than 'be prepared'.
    1. 1.
      be present while something bad is happening but fail to take any action to stop it.
      "he was beaten to the ground as onlookers stood by"

    2. 2.
      support or remain loyal to (someone), typically in a time of need.
      "she had stood by him during his years in prison"
    3. 3.
      be ready to deal or assist with something.
      "two battalions were on their way, and a third was standing by"

    As you say, he did fail to condemn these organisations, but it seems to me that his major concern was to redirect the dialogue onto the topic of Antifa by giving as little attention as possible to the actual question.

    The media storm about this ambiguous statement is somewhat ridiculous to me, given the context of everything else he did actually say. It seems like a massive red herring that only plays into Trump's hands because of the sheer level of plausible deniability he is able to apply to it. This is very weak political opposition; schoolyard amateurism.
     
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  6. MoonFlier

    MoonFlier Well-known member

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    Stand by (Stand by for evacuation orders, we have a cat 5 hurricane headed our way) and Stand back (Stop all behavior, let someone else deal with the issue) have two very different meanings. It was a Freudian slip at best, Instruction at its worst.

    Now, granted Trump don't do words good, so perhaps it was just him forgetting what he had been asked to declare?
     
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  7. SpecialEdition

    SpecialEdition Well-known member

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    Sorry, I thought he had all the best words?
     
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  8. Icedream

    Icedream Blue Butterfly

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  9. SpecialEdition

    SpecialEdition Well-known member

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    Didn't know he was such a proficient musician
     
  10. Chickensoup

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    Let’s all remember Charles Manson never killed anyone.
     
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  11. acd

    acd Well-known member

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    He has spent the last nearly 4 years gaslighting this country. This was not an innocent slip up. We didn't all just hear him wrong. And those addressed didn't seem to think so either. He's an opportunist who thrives on sowing discord and confusion.
     
    #271 acd, Oct 11, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2020
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  12. Reason

    Reason Damnation Dignified

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    https://www.local10.com/news/local/...mps-message-of-stand-by-wasnt-call-to-action/

    There's plenty wrong with the proud boys. Particularly I don't like the political violence they engage in. White supremacist seems like a stretch, islamophobic and violent is as far as I would go in describing them.
     
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  13. Reason

    Reason Damnation Dignified

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    Honestly the best rule of thumb is to condemn political violence on all sides. There's no need for that.
     
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  14. Chickensoup

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    I think it’d fair to delay the Supreme Court nomination.
     
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  15. Chickensoup

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  16. acd

    acd Well-known member

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    Anyone watching the townhalls with Trump and Biden? I'm flipping back and forth.
     
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  17. Icedream

    Icedream Blue Butterfly

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    I forgot that was tonight.
     
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  18. acd

    acd Well-known member

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    I only caught half of it and then ended up missing a lot going back and forth.
     
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  19. Reason

    Reason Damnation Dignified

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    I'm at work but even if I was home I don't know if I'd watch. I don't see what rehashing the same talking points is going to change.
     
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  20. Reason

    Reason Damnation Dignified

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    If all goes well I'll be voting tomorrow.
     
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