Yeah, he is getting a bit out of line. Seems like he is out to hurt feelings.
The Ethics of Strip Clubs
- Thread starter aerosol
- Start date
Yeah, he is getting a bit out of line. Seems like he is out to hurt feelings.
So girls stripping = bad... but girls having sex on camera = ok? help me out here.
People are letting me know that Billy apparently is... uh, I wont say it but he doesn't seem to have a good rep when it comes to certain things.
I've been meaning to end it but it's intriguing to continue. The things I've brought up seem to be misunderstood though, so I'm tired of this. The style of Billy's argument technique (comebacks) are a bit disturbing so that sucks, too.
I do not hate women, I do not hate sex, I do not hate anything that is in any way erotic. I have ethical issues with strip clubs, and they go deep and complex so it might be difficult to follow along. Apparently some people don't have such issues, and that's fine.
I'd go into the last comment but I don't see the point. The simple minded would say that I have no defense, but we are all smart enough to see that this has become too frustrating of a topic. We all have different opinions, and that's just how it will be.
You can look at the only thread I started and you'll see a similarly unfolded experience with Billy's responses.
As for strip clubs I think that there are those who get into it because they have run out of options. To say that all strippers are inherently bad people or that its ALWAYS situational I think would be a little too naive. I'd have to agree that it is all about personal preference. I've known in my time a few females who only had their lives complicated by stripping and a couple who have gotten themselves the opportunities to get through school or provide for any dependents they had. As for going? It's all about personal preference, on that I would have to agree. I personally have never gone to a strip club, not because I'm a prude or because I look down on them, I just feel like there are better ways to spend my hard earned money. That and I'm not the type to say I'm the kind of guy who'd do that anyway.
As for strip clubs I think that there are those who get into it because they have run out of options. To say that all strippers are inherently bad people or that its ALWAYS situational I think would be a little too naive. I'd have to agree that it is all about personal preference. I've known in my time a few females who only had their lives complicated by stripping and a couple who have gotten themselves the opportunities to get through school or provide for any dependents they had. As for going? It's all about personal preference, on that I would have to agree. I personally have never gone to a strip club, not because I'm a prude or because I look down on them, I just feel like there are better ways to spend my hard earned money. That and I'm not the type to say I'm the kind of guy who'd do that anyway.
Yeah, I believe the experience was that you didn't like the advice you were getting and were looking for a pity party. You never did answer my "bold assumptions" by the way since you brought it back up. Don't mistake my lack of "giving a crap about tact" for anything other then what it is. I can have an honest and earnest dialogue with people without worrying about dodging the minefield of their pathetic insecurities. That you couldn't handle the confrontation is your problem.
Y'know, people can have different opinions. It's okay.
Women don't have to be fans of strip clubs, and men don't need to enjoy them. It's okay to feel either way; and if someone disagrees with you, it's okay to let them.
Neutral corners, y'all.
Women don't have to be fans of strip clubs, and men don't need to enjoy them. It's okay to feel either way; and if someone disagrees with you, it's okay to let them.
Neutral corners, y'all.
Stripping clubs aren't the problem, it's the the circumstances that lead unfortunate or "damaged" women to work there. When faced with poverty you don't have much of a choice. If they aren't stripping they would be doing something else to earn money, something that could be far worse or damaging.
It's not an ethical issue for me. Strip clubs exist because there is demand. It's not the owner of the venue that is forcing the woman to give up her dignity, it's the poverty or some other circumstance. Besides most people have priories, if you are desperate for money, stripping is probably a hell of a lot better than prostituting yourself, for example.
I'd say "you're barking up the wrong tree". Even if strip clubs didn't exist, impoverished people would still have to go through difficulties to finance themselves.
It's not an ethical issue for me. Strip clubs exist because there is demand. It's not the owner of the venue that is forcing the woman to give up her dignity, it's the poverty or some other circumstance. Besides most people have priories, if you are desperate for money, stripping is probably a hell of a lot better than prostituting yourself, for example.
I'd say "you're barking up the wrong tree". Even if strip clubs didn't exist, impoverished people would still have to go through difficulties to finance themselves.
I threw in my two-cents on the other thread, but I will toss it out again.
I enjoy going to strip clubs. I have a couple beers, I flirt with the girls, I tip, and I occasionally get some decent conversation. It's fun for me. This isn't something I do on a regular basis, but I got two to three times a year to let off some steam and have some harmless fun.
With that said, I know the harm that strip clubs can do. I have seen the damage first hand. My parents spent the vast majority of my childhood partying in the local clubs and doing drugs while my grandparents raised me. No, it's not the best environment, but there's no shame in going and having fun on occasion. If you think I should feel bad about it, I respectfully disagree.
Personally, I would never work in one. I am more of a voyeur than an exhibitionist. But, I don't look down on women that do. If that's the path you want to take, best of luck to you. If you go into it with a sound mind it's not hard to stay out of the drug side of it. I have known plenty of women that have. I have the same opinion of porn. I wouldn't do it, but if you want to feel free. It's your body to do with as you choose and I will not judge you for it.
This really is a matter of to each their own. If you don't like it, fine. If you do, fine. What is the big issue? People have different opinions. No need to be hostile and throw around insults. Agree to disagree like the mature adults we all are.
I enjoy going to strip clubs. I have a couple beers, I flirt with the girls, I tip, and I occasionally get some decent conversation. It's fun for me. This isn't something I do on a regular basis, but I got two to three times a year to let off some steam and have some harmless fun.
With that said, I know the harm that strip clubs can do. I have seen the damage first hand. My parents spent the vast majority of my childhood partying in the local clubs and doing drugs while my grandparents raised me. No, it's not the best environment, but there's no shame in going and having fun on occasion. If you think I should feel bad about it, I respectfully disagree.
Personally, I would never work in one. I am more of a voyeur than an exhibitionist. But, I don't look down on women that do. If that's the path you want to take, best of luck to you. If you go into it with a sound mind it's not hard to stay out of the drug side of it. I have known plenty of women that have. I have the same opinion of porn. I wouldn't do it, but if you want to feel free. It's your body to do with as you choose and I will not judge you for it.
This really is a matter of to each their own. If you don't like it, fine. If you do, fine. What is the big issue? People have different opinions. No need to be hostile and throw around insults. Agree to disagree like the mature adults we all are.
There are worse environments than strip clubs.
The world is a terrible place, and yes people deserve better environments than what they are given, but strips are very mild compared to sex trafficking and the like.
And you have to ask- if women are making good money off of strip clubs or pornography or even prostitution in some cases, would taking it away help or hurt them? What alternatives would those women have to attain money and meet their needs?
It is an ugly reality, but not everyone is so very privileged as we are and those women who engage in such acts by choice instead by necessity. I know a girl who choose to strip, and she enjoyed it, but she comes from a very well off family and enjoys it. Her reasons for stripping are not the same as all strippers. I guess my point is that this entire thread so far appears (not that I read every single post) to be examining the 'ethics' of this issue from a privileged perspective.
I don't feel like it is appropriate to judge everyone on the same standards as if good alternatives to these activities actually exist for them. In some cases, they do, and I judge those women harshly, but for those who don't have as easy of a choice, it is more than just an individual preference. It is a way to make a living, but maybe we forget that wasting all our time on forums and enjoying our ability to say no.
The world is a terrible place, and yes people deserve better environments than what they are given, but strips are very mild compared to sex trafficking and the like.
And you have to ask- if women are making good money off of strip clubs or pornography or even prostitution in some cases, would taking it away help or hurt them? What alternatives would those women have to attain money and meet their needs?
It is an ugly reality, but not everyone is so very privileged as we are and those women who engage in such acts by choice instead by necessity. I know a girl who choose to strip, and she enjoyed it, but she comes from a very well off family and enjoys it. Her reasons for stripping are not the same as all strippers. I guess my point is that this entire thread so far appears (not that I read every single post) to be examining the 'ethics' of this issue from a privileged perspective.
I don't feel like it is appropriate to judge everyone on the same standards as if good alternatives to these activities actually exist for them. In some cases, they do, and I judge those women harshly, but for those who don't have as easy of a choice, it is more than just an individual preference. It is a way to make a living, but maybe we forget that wasting all our time on forums and enjoying our ability to say no.
Well, I'll give my opinion on it. I think in a lot of cases you're right about what draws women into stripping. Personally, they aren't really an enjoyable experience for me because they become way too real, the few times I've gone the girls were telling me all their real life problems and it became a lot more depressing than fun.
However, I did have a conversation with one stripper that I thought was relatively interesting, she told me that she felt like she was helping people with her job. She told me about one of her customers whose wife had died and how he needed some temporary companionship and she felt really good that she could help him in that way.
Unfortunately I'm not too sure that this girl was very intelligent considering when I asked her what her real passions in life where she told me she was passionate about marijuana.
However, I did have a conversation with one stripper that I thought was relatively interesting, she told me that she felt like she was helping people with her job. She told me about one of her customers whose wife had died and how he needed some temporary companionship and she felt really good that she could help him in that way.
Unfortunately I'm not too sure that this girl was very intelligent considering when I asked her what her real passions in life where she told me she was passionate about marijuana.
But...there are so many different moral standards, imo, the only morals worth upholding are the ones that produce the most beneficent results and minimize damage. I mean so long as people are not actively seeking to produce damage, I would call them 'moral' by my standards.
I never understood why sexuality is so deelply interwined with morality today. It just seems really silly. It's preference. It's not harming anyone, of course as long as we're talking about consensual people who are aware of and willing to take responsibility for their actions.
Morality is definitely not a bad thing, it can become bad when people force others to comply with their morals.
What is morality? I tend to live by two rules; always have integrity and the golden rule.
I think our society has an unhealthy view of sexuality, why can we not show nudity on tv but we can show realistic looking health emergencies on hospital shows? which do you think is more damaging for a child to see? I remember certain things I saw on tv as a child keeping me up at night, they weren't nudity or sexuality, they where shows like ER or Law and Order.
I think our society has an unhealthy view of sexuality, why can we not show nudity on tv but we can show realistic looking health emergencies on hospital shows? which do you think is more damaging for a child to see? I remember certain things I saw on tv as a child keeping me up at night, they weren't nudity or sexuality, they where shows like ER or Law and Order.
As I read this thread I began to wonder what the actual statistics were as it concerned the percentage of women working in strip clubs who had been abused as children.
A few different sites quote an estimate of 66-90% of women in the sex industry as being sexually abused as children.
Sex_Stats
Prostitution - Is prostitution a victimless crime?
I also found a statistic from 2000 that indicates the rate of victimization among the general population is approximately 1%.
National Child Abuse Statistics
I recognize these sites might have some bias (and one of the statistics is an estimate that I couldn't find substantiation for quickly), but it's still a starting place. I'd be curious if anyone else has found different numbers and where those numbers were sourced.
A few different sites quote an estimate of 66-90% of women in the sex industry as being sexually abused as children.
Sex_Stats
Prostitution - Is prostitution a victimless crime?
I also found a statistic from 2000 that indicates the rate of victimization among the general population is approximately 1%.
National Child Abuse Statistics
I recognize these sites might have some bias (and one of the statistics is an estimate that I couldn't find substantiation for quickly), but it's still a starting place. I'd be curious if anyone else has found different numbers and where those numbers were sourced.
Good stats, tovlo.
I do think it does have a lot to do with self-worth, and finding it. Some women in the sex industries have it, and they're perfectly comfortable with their jobs. But the truth is, the majority came from really difficult backgrounds, and being in the jobs they have can perpetuate a vicious cycle of unworthiness. And then they become cold, perhaps, and a little manipulative towards their "clients." To see their clients beg, suffer, squirm...that becomes a subtle form of revenge for what happened to them.
Anyway. I recognize that there are different views on the matter. I think the sex industry is too exploitative to women, because it's rare they're seen as a person - they're an object. And I personally would prefer to be seen as a person rather than an object.
I do think it does have a lot to do with self-worth, and finding it. Some women in the sex industries have it, and they're perfectly comfortable with their jobs. But the truth is, the majority came from really difficult backgrounds, and being in the jobs they have can perpetuate a vicious cycle of unworthiness. And then they become cold, perhaps, and a little manipulative towards their "clients." To see their clients beg, suffer, squirm...that becomes a subtle form of revenge for what happened to them.
Anyway. I recognize that there are different views on the matter. I think the sex industry is too exploitative to women, because it's rare they're seen as a person - they're an object. And I personally would prefer to be seen as a person rather than an object.
I would have to say that I agree with the intent of Billy's argument (not so much his of how he says it) and what a few others have said. It is very easy to have a certain "moral" principle about the idea when you have not had to face the hard facts of eeking out an existence. Many times people in poverty have few choices in life. Good or bad, it is. I will say that many of my family members (and many Native People) live in poverty and have made choices to sell drugs, alcoholism, prositution--all the mean things in life. I will also say that many times these indivduals have a much harsher and more loyal sense of duty and honor then people that have grown up in better circumstances. They are the kind of people who give their last dollar to help a friend or pitch in when someone needs help moving or whatever it is. When you live on the fringes you learn to take care of each other because nobody else sure as hell will. I dislike this idea that there is some kind of "morality" regarding the issue of whether or not someone chooses to strip. I firmly believe you should not force your sense of right and wrong on others. People make their own choices and have to live with the consequences of those choices. I believe your right to determine what is right and wrong stops with you and you alone.
Edit: "People make their own choices and have to live with the consequences of those choices. I believe your right to determine what is right and wrong stops with you and you alone."
This, I didn't read the whole post before posting >_< but +1
This, I didn't read the whole post before posting >_< but +1
I would also like to say something about the comments directed at Billy--not that he needs defending or that we even particularily talk to one another because the answer is negative to both those. I will say that it is very easy to impose your idea of what "should be" on others with little or no understanding of how things are. I will say that I see Billy's posts as opinionated and surprisingly impassioned for someone who looks like he should be a dude. I think that you are naive if you think life will hand you roses and candy-sometimes people will be in your face, they will intimidate you, they will challenge you--but I will say from experience that it is more your problem then theirs. People are who they are. The lives they have lived have made them the people they are. Billy has strong opinions and he has a demanding manner and tone with his responses but I see it more as a debating style and not a personal attack. I dunno, maybe I am more secure in who I am and not so easily rattled and not a Feeler. I will say that it does no good to point fingers and say "he is mean"--Billy is blunt and direct and I honestly believe him when he says he is not taking tone with you people. Why? Because I understand that there are places in this world where soft doesn't cut it and I think Billy understands and comes from one of those places. You will learn much in life and enjoy lots of new friendships and experiences if you stop insisting that everyone be like you, talk like you and act like you. Thats for everyone--Billy included.
Monkey added for emphasis.
Monkey added for emphasis.What is consent? A history of abuse and self-hatred may make someone likely to consent to further debasement and abuse. Consent is not a simple concept. If you don't believe this, look into the idea of consent when it comes to getting a subject's permission for performing a medical procedure or clinical research.
I am always suspicious of the so-called "sex-industry." Any "industry" in which the mafia and other organized crime syndicates (e.g., international sex trafficking and slavery) have such an overwhelming involvement is always suspect.