The Ethics of Strip Clubs | Page 3 | INFJ Forum

The Ethics of Strip Clubs

What is morality? I tend to live by two rules; always have integrity and the golden rule.

I think our society has an unhealthy view of sexuality, why can we not show nudity on tv but we can show realistic looking health emergencies on hospital shows? which do you think is more damaging for a child to see? I remember certain things I saw on tv as a child keeping me up at night, they weren't nudity or sexuality, they where shows like ER or Law and Order.

Interesting you say this. I think that America in specific has a problem with sexuality/nudity. My Psych teacher is from Sweden and talks about this a lot. We are so violent but are ashamed of our bodies. The human body is the masterpiece of the universe and we, the owners, are ashamed of it. But it's OK to kill it (on tv). You can kill, beat and oppress it but looking at it is the worst thing ever.
 
I would also like to say something about the comments directed at Billy--not that he needs defending
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Billy has strong opinions and he has a demanding manner and tone with his responses but I see it more as a debating style and not a personal attack.
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I honestly believe him when he says he is not taking tone with you people.


I agree with Sonyab. There are certain triggers in Billy's writing which I think he places to emphasize his passion for the argument and don't represent his opinion of the debaters. I'm reluctant to give Billy advice on this because it really is a pain how much INTJs have to bend for others. It would be nice to see an effort made to understand our language.

P.S. I assume you are an INTJ Billy. Sorry if I'm wrong.
 
I agree with Sonyab. There are certain triggers in Billy's writing which I think he places to emphasize his passion for the argument and don't represent his opinion of the debaters. I'm reluctant to give Billy advice on this because it really is a pain how much INTJs have to bend for others. It would be nice to see an effort made to understand our language.

P.S. I assume you are an INTJ Billy. Sorry if I'm wrong.

HAAAHAAA! Okay, you get laugh of the day from me!
 
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From the knowledge that I have, and I admit it could be wrong, stripping (NOT prostitution, I am talking strictly about stripping in stripclubs) is not so much a risk for the women and men who participate it as other forms of sex work, and I'm not sure if all strip-work eventually leads to prostitution, which is really the core of the issue.

I think that women, and men, who have had history of sexual abuse are more likely to go into prostitution than stripping, because I think the implied sexuality of stripping is a lot more controlled and 'in charge' than it is in prostitution, and I understand most strippers to be people who are simply from low incomes who are looking to make money fast, just like people who getting into waitressing. Stripping is relatively a safe practice and it doesn't really do much harm to the strippers in way of STDs, violence, or the risk of being murdered as do prostitutes. So I think more likely, men and women who go into stripping are less likely psychologically damaging themselves or doing it because of a past history of abuse than they are purely for the money. I know some people whom have life goal dreams of being a playboy bunny, so I think that some people really -do- want to be strippers.

I think more along the lines are concerns of what people are going on about is prostitution , which from my observation, draws in a lot of young men and women who are runaways and suffer past histories of sexual/emotional/physical abuse.


I'd also like to note that in the United States and other similarly, well I know this isn't the politically correct term to use now, but in other 'first world' countries like the United States, stripping is vastly by choice and it is not forced upon women or men by gangs and drug-lords. In all of the books I've read about the treatment of women in other countries, it appears that human trafficking often forces a woman into stripping and prostitution, which are far more damaging than in the U.S.A. which mostly, stripping at least, is by choice. I would say the only time stripping is demeaning and mentally unhealthy for women is when it isn't by their choice, when they are forced to do it, and I will assure you that most of the women today in the career of stripping have not been forced by a group of human traffickers to strip in exotic strip clubs for men while being abused physically and sexually behind the scenes and likely kept in some sort of cage/basement that they aren't allowed to leave. That's just not how the strip-club-scenes operate in the united states and most first world countries, and I'm pretty confident that.


So to those of you who are all getting their panties up their asscracks about women and their 'health' by being in a strip club...remember, it's not like anyone is forcing them to do so, and if they were, the government would totally be doing sting operations and have their Human Rights Officers all over that shit, as well as develop programs specifically to help women out of stripping establishments. Since that isn't the case for stripping but it most certainly is the case for prostitution, I would have to say there is stark difference in the ethics and threat level/damage of both, which is why one is legal and the other is illegal. Now I am not saying in any way that prostitution should be illegal...perhaps in it's current form, but my political stance is for legalization and regulation of prostitution. Call me immoral for that, I already know I'm going to hell for not accepting jesus christ as my personal savior.
 
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I think people are right about me being most likely to kill threads....
 
Maybe those of you following this thread may appreciate this song.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uBIXN-7PzM&feature=related"]YouTube - Etana - Wrong Address[/ame]
 
I think our western society hasn't really got to grips with the reality of the sexual nature of our species

The marketers have though that's for sure. Yup 'sex sells' is their mantra! They have seen the commercial value of sex and as a result have sexualised just about anything that they can in order to squeeze a profit out of it.

It does seem that sex or the suggestion of sex is everywhere. But is everyone getting the sex that is dangled like a carrot in front of their faces the whole time? On one hand there seems to be an openess about sex but on the other there still seems to be a sort of repression as well....or at least unhealthy associations attached to an act that should be healthy, fun and liberating for people.

Personally i think sex is a basic human need like: air, water, rest and food. Sure that might not be the case for everyone and i respect whatever works for them.

The point i'm trying to make is that due to the commercialisation of sex it is always in our faces but not everyone is necessarily reaping the fruits of that. So whats the point of stirring up lots of sexual energies if those energies can't then be grounded?

Our profit orientated society is obsessed with sex but does not seem to have created a healthy or mature attitude to sex.

So everyone's sexual buttons are being pushed all the time but sex itself is often driven underground.

People have to dress up in revealing ways and cram themselves into glorified meat-market nighclubs and pubs and go through bizarre mateship rituals....ie get extremely drunk and then spin excrutiating lines to prospective partners or dance like clowns in order to get people's attention. Go out on the street on a saturday night in any British town/city and you will see a mad carnivalesque, bacchinalean vision of the last days of Rome where intoxicated people fall all over the place, leer at each other, vomit, fight, and consume lots of food that is physically impossible to eat unless you are very drunk. If you are sober, town on a friday or saturday night can vary from amusing to downright scary or intimidating.

Sure it's fun...for a while....but it's not without it's problems and it is also part of a big letting off of steam after a week of 9 to five work. 'Living for the weekend'.....really is that all there is to life? The answer is definately NO. The accident and emergency rooms get filled with casualties from accidents and violence which burdens the National Health Service which we all then have to pay for in our taxes. People's health is declining and cirrhosis of the liver is being recorded in younger and younger people. Britain has a serious problem with binge drinking. Alcohol it seems, despite being one of the most dangerous and unpredictable of all drugs, is ok with the state. Yup a depressant drug that in large enough quantities can turn people violent is state sanctioned and provides lots of tax for the government's coffers. Why is drink allowed? In my opinion it is because it closes down thought and feeling instead of opening people's minds; it numbs people and helps them forget things. Booze is the release valve for a society which isn't really working for a lot of people.

The other phenomena of modern day life is finding partners over the internet. This has become a popular way to find partners because we have become such an atomized society, with little time or energy to pursue the finer things in life.

So these are legitimate ways to get sex. But even these aren't always going to work. So some people turn to the sex trade, which has itself been driven underground by the law. I'll come back to this but a quick word about strip clubs and pornography.

If people go to strip clubs because they want sex then they are going to be sorely dissapointed unless they are willing to pay for sex and can find a dancer who will sell them it.

Most likely all that will happen is that they will leave the establishment even more sexually frustrated then when they went in and a lot poorer as well having been fleeced of the contents of their wallet by a set up designed to make them part with their cash, very efficiently.

Pornography is the same....it's all suggestion with no delivery! It's also exploitative and attracts people who are already pretty damaged who will then smother themselves in the stigma which a repressed society has created around sex, which will probably have the result of damaging their already depleted self esteem.

So what option is left for people who can't get sex? There is prostitution. Because prostitution has been made illegal and therefore driven underground there is no regulation for it. It's illegal status also means that in order to fill illegal brothels with prostitutes, very nasty men: coerce, kidnap, rape, threaten, beat and blackmail women into working for them as sex slaves.

Many British people will tell you arrogantly that Britain is a 'civilised', 'modern', 'advanced' country, but they are clinging to a nationalistic and delusional belief that their country holds a premier position in the world; this is a leftover from the days when Britain had an empire. What having an empire means is that you invade other countries, enslave their people, take their natural resources, rape their women and brutalise their men.

Yes in modern day, 'civilised' Britain there is huge amounts of sex trafficking (sex slavery) in order to supply women for the underground sex trade. It's not something that's really discussed much in the media and it is generally just swept under the carpet. Is that a mature or civilised response to a problem? No but sadly Britain seems to lacking in imagination when it comes to solving problems and the approach of the politicians is usually to look to the USA for an example of what to do.

Other prostitutes who choose to go 'on the game', usually do it to pay for drug habits. The drugs then help them to deal with the low self esteem created from their occupation, the stigma attached to it and what they see as their fallen status in life; this creates a spiral. Being on drugs their control over their lives slip and they become susceptible to all sorts of diseases and infections which may then be passed on to their customers.

In Holland, things are somewhat different. Prostitution is tolerated and is regulated. in the red light district of Amsterdam there are streets full of glass fronted rooms which are rented by the night by prostitutes who work for themselves and therefore aren't ripped off by a pimp. The women sit on a stool in the window and customers can walk down the street and choose who they want to sleep with. The prices are standardised, the women checked regularly (by law) by doctors and provided with certificates to prove they have no transmitable diseases. The women probably do not suffer from the self esteem problems women elsewhere suffer from because society does not affix the same stigma to their profession. They probably make a lot of money, safely and arguably provide a beneficial service to society, by creating an outlet for sexual energies amongst the populace.

No doubt many potential rapists or other potential commiters of sex crimes have relieved their sexual frustrations, in the red light district of Amsterdam, instead of committing a sex crime. No doubt many struggling, sexless marriages have also been saved by the vice girls of Amsterdam!

Is this outrageous? The reality, which no one can deny, is that regardless of whether or not you legalise prostitution, it will always exist. So do you drive it underground and let criminal gangs take over and sex slavery flourish or do you legalise and regulate it and do your best to keep everyone involved safe?

The Dutch method seems more civilised to me. They have not denied the sexual needs of people, but have instead sought a way to deal with sexual energies in a way that is less harmful and exploitative.

They also tolerate cannabis as long as it is smoked within cafes, behind closed doors and not smoked in front of young or old people. Also a pretty civilised approach if you ask me.

The down side for the Dutch is that because of their relaxed approach many people flood into their country from other countries and it is these people who often act irresponsibly, misbehave and create a more seedy feel to their city. The Dutch then have to suffer for the repressed approach of other countries, in putting up with large numbers of drug and sex tourists who do not always have such a mature attitude to life.

I went there myself when i was younger, as i was really into my pot at the time. All the people cluttering up the streets and being rowdy seemed to be non Dutch. We walked through the red light district and although seeing women sitting in bikinis in shop windows seemed a little strange to my British sensibilities i did recognise that their way of approaching certain things seemed more progressive than ours. I didn't indulge myself, but wouldn't judge another for doing so.
 
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+1 to Dragon's post.

I admit I look down more of people who went on strip clubs or Hooters compared to the strippers themselves.

How many are stripping or prostituting out of their own will?
How many are coming to strip clubs and prostitutes out of their own will?

Sure, in the name of fun and profit... The sad reality about our morality; everything can be right, and everything can be wrong. *sighs*

*ETA: I realized what slant's writing seems to be right, that in US stripping may be safer and less dodgy compared to prostitution. In that case, consider my statement above to lean more towards prostitution in US. Strip clubs are....well, I assume what goes into the consumer's head are the same, but I guess what goes into the stripper's head are different than prostitutes.

Maybe other countries weren't that lucky for strippers. :|

About the prostitutes / strippers themselves, the only thing I wondered is how much of them would want to go out to the 'lighter' world if they can. How many are too cynical about their future, or too blinded with the money and blings in front of them and thus, do not want to leave. :|

*ETA: not including those who strip because they like it. If they like it, then good?
 
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Ditto. I've been quietly thinking about this thread. It reminded me of a BBC interview of a Dutch prostitute, who pointed out that she provided a service to people who often could not get what they needed in more socially acceptable ways. Since, I agree that sex is a need why do I think it's okay to criticize these people. I am a hypocrite really. I'm perfectly okay with the debauchery at carnival or a friday night session so why does the involvement of money change my attitude?

Yeah. The British certainly did a number on us. Couples rarely even hold hands in public. Your lucky if your boyfriend will even walk beside you.
 
Yeah Britain has a lot to answer for
 
Yeah...you...me...and a lot more besides!

Sure there are pros and cons to everything, i do appreciate that.

If i criticise Britain it is only because it isn't being what it could be. The first step to solving a problem is recognising there is a problem and what that problem is.
 
I wasn't implying that Britain should not be criticized. I think your points are strong.
 
That's cool, you just reminded me that i was maybe being a bit one sided in my presentation of Britain!

It must seem like i totally hate my country!

There are many great things about Britain and the majority of people are basically decent, much like anywhere that hasn't been too brutalised
 
No doubt many potential rapists or other potential commiters of sex crimes have relieved their sexual frustrations, in the red light district of Amsterdam, instead of committing a sex crime. No doubt many struggling, sexless marriages have also been saved by the vice girls of Amsterdam!

Is this outrageous? The reality, which no one can deny, is that regardless of whether or not you legalise prostitution, it will always exist. So do you drive it underground and let criminal gangs take over and sex slavery flourish or do you legalise and regulate it and do your best to keep everyone involved safe?

The Dutch method seems more civilised to me. They have not denied the sexual needs of people, but have instead sought a way to deal with sexual energies in a way that is less harmful and exploitative.
I disagree about 'potential' sex offenders and rapists relieving their tensions through prostitution and therefore, lowering those types of crimes..

Because for sex offenders, it isn't actually about sexuality or sexual frustrations.. It's about power and violence that is expressed in a sexual manner.. it's about force. Rape is certainly a violent act, and many rape victims are actually prostitutes.. Making prostitution legal isn't going to guarantee a safer society.. unless that society already has a less violent culture.


But I do think you have a point about legalizing it so that thugs can't profit from it.
 
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So why do those people develop violent impulses towards women?

Do you think it might have something to do with societies unhealthy attitude towards sex?
 
I don't even understand why people care about who goes to strip clubs, who strips at the said strip clubs and whatnot.

Why, what's the point, why care so much? What constructive purpose is there to caring about shit that people do when it's not you doing it and it doesn't affect your life whatsoever? If I go to a strip club tonight, that doesn't cause someone to cut off your leg because I did that. In fact the only thing it does it gets you P'Oed because I went there because "STRIP CLUBS ARE IMMORAL AND WRONG AND OOOH THE HORRORS SOCIETY IS DOING TO OUR WOMEN"

well guess what I went to a men's strip club, idiot. Why do people not care about male strippers? why are women soooo victimized and men have to be all manly about it?

None of this helps society at all, I see no constructive purpose to it, I don't even know who came up with people taking their clothes off as unethical and unmoral. What, did God invent that in the bible? Is there some holy dresscode that suggests taking one's clothes off if it's not in privacy is somehow sinful? AND IS IT ONLY WOMEN WHO IT'S SINFUL TOWARDS?

Look ladies and gents, the naked body is natural. You're born into the world like that, plain and simple. I get so mad when they cover sculptures of naked people with those dumbass fig leaves- like what, what, having a penis and breasts is something to be ashamed of and hide from the world? We see naked babies and we're fine with that but then after a certain point you gotta cover up. Well, fuck that. I want a nudist colony, now. That'll solve your problem. If we're all nudists, no one can be strippers, then there's no ethical issue with stripping, is there?
 
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The damage isn't in the act itself. There is nothing wrong with nudity. The damage is in perceptions. How an individual perceives themself and how others perceive them and changing that is to do with changing the attitudes of society to a more open and free attitude.

Also it is not just an issue for the strippers but for the customers as well. A strip joint is only going to make them sexually frustrated.

My argument is that it is not a healthy outlet for the sexual energies which society generates...its all about energies and controlling them!
 
So why do those people develop violent impulses towards women?

Do you think it might have something to do with societies unhealthy attitude towards sex?
Nope, I think it has to do with the patriarchy feeling threatened. The violence is a reaction to the either real or conceived threat toward male power and dominance. It goes back a long way in society as well, and is hardly a new idea. Women have been the scape goat, and continue to be so. Look at the bible, who is to blame for the downfall of humanity? Eve. Adam ate the fruit as well, but Eve is to blame. Look at Mexican culture and the story of La Malinche. A teenage girl is given as a slave to Cortez, and is considered a traitor to the native people (and remains so in legends today) where as the Tlaxcala who fought with Cortez are just seen as having fought on the wrong side.

For hundreds of years men have blamed women for their problems, and it is widely accepted that violent sexual acts are committed for power. Why do these men need to assert their power over women? Because for some reason they feel threatened by them, and has very little to do with sex.
 
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I don't even understand why people care about who goes to strip clubs, who strips at the said strip clubs and whatnot.

Brilliant. /thread.