The Conservative Truth

Chessie

Chessie

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There's a funny fact about American conservatives. They don't vote in their own best interests. They don't vote for ideology. They don't vote even for religion.

Conservatives vote for the conservative culture. It doesn't matter if this culture is supremely destructive or if it leads to their demise. So long as the conservative culture survives, nothing else matters and discussion is unlikely.

This is playing out in a strange way now that conservative culture has mutated to mean 'Do nothing that people who are not like you do and blame them for all of the problems that causes'. This has lead to incivility on a scale that is barely comprehensible but also to a state where the conservative mindset is governed by a continuous 'fight' or 'flight' response without the capacity for compromise.

Keep in mind, this response has been carefully constructed by people who benefit from having simple minded, easily manipulated persons available for their use. You have people who sit in positions of inscrutable authority, rich beyond all imagining and for whom ideas like law and order are abstract at best. These people can murder you and your family and simply have nothing happen to them.

In Wisconsin what we're seeing in the Anti-Union protests is a manifestation of a Republican party which has nothing to lose because it doesn't actually exist. To that end it can do anything and needn't obey any of the actual rules which make a democracy function. Right now the Republican party is a collective of dollars buying men to refuse all forms of compromise. These men can't be threatened or bargained with. Their decisions have been bought and failure to comply with the decisions of their owners means they cease to be the face of those decisions.

This is the Conservative Truth.

You'll find amazing parallels between this condition and that of French Royalty just before The Terror.
 
I don't know... I can't say for sure whether it's truly their fault. If I were born in a family that was, according to you, easily brainwashed and manipulated, I doubt I would fare any better. I'm sure there's a reason for this mindset, maybe if we try to understand what they fear what they are trying to achieve... Maybe we can come to a common ground that benefits everyone.
I don't think that adopting an "us and them" mentality solves anything in the long run. I'm sure "the others" make very similar dialogues about "our" side.
I'm afraid that there probably always will be divisions in society that adopt an "us and them" mentality...But, we're all people, I'm sure it's possible for us to be able to cut that vicious circle by adopting an proactive, understanding, mentality.

I'm sure this sounds naive, especially because you seem so vehemently adhere to the fact that these "people" are not to be reasoned with. "don't vote for their own interest/don't care about self destruction" "narrow mindset", etc. But maybe we should let go of those labels so we can serve a goal that echoes the humane aspects of this problem.

Sorry for diluting your thread with Fi :0 ~~ :m107:
 
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"Conservatives vote for the conservative culture. It doesn't matter if this culture is supremely destructive or if it leads to their demise. So long as the conservative culture survives, nothing else matters and discussion is unlikely."

What is the conservative culture? This statement just tells me it is bad and getting worse. But not what it is about.

"This is playing out in a strange way now that conservative culture has mutated to mean 'Do nothing that people who are not like you do and blame them for all of the problems that causes'. This has lead to incivility on a scale that is barely comprehensible but also to a state where the conservative mindset is governed by a continuous 'fight' or 'flight' response without the capacity for compromise."

Hmm so it's all the conservatives fault then? If they would just die or go away all would be fine? Is there not room for these people in the country? Maybe living on farms or working the land? I see a lot of city people moving into the country and the first thing they do is complain about how simple life is. And then do everything in their power to change the country and blame the simple people for being too simple for not wanting to ruin their town. In the end the farmers lost and were forced out of making a living off of the land. And now sub divisions cover farmland and the natural forest areas are being ruined by city folk who have decided to move into the country. They have no regard for nature at all. I find their litter everywhere I go now. They make fun of the locals too. Calling us backwoods and toothless burger pickers. Sheep fuckers. Simpletons. Inbred s. The list goes on. Oh how they look at us with such disdain while they enjoy our used to be small town. One in which they know nothing about.


"Keep in mind, this response has been carefully constructed by people who benefit from having simple minded, easily manipulated persons available for their use. You have people who sit in positions of inscrutable authority, rich beyond all imagining and for whom ideas like law and order are abstract at best. These people can murder you and your family and simply have nothing happen to them."

So here you go "simpleminded" "easily manipulated persons" is what people who move here say about me and my friends. I most certainly am not simple minded or easily manipulated by anyone. And neither are the people I know. The problem is we are not allowed to be who we are. We are rejected by the other side as simple minded so we could not possibly understand anything you have to say. And since we did not go to college we of course, are not smart. We can barely count our fingers and toes ya know. Although I did get an A in toothless country anatomy. It's required for all country folk.


"In Wisconsin what we're seeing in the Anti-Union protests is a manifestation of a Republican party which has nothing to lose because it doesn't actually exist. To that end it can do anything and needn't obey any of the actual rules which make a democracy function. Right now the Republican party is a collective of dollars buying men to refuse all forms of compromise. These men can't be threatened or bargained with. Their decisions have been bought and failure to comply with the decisions of their owners means they cease to be the face of those decisions."

In Wisconsin you are seeing tax payers that are broke wanting teachers and public employees pay their fair share of there benefits. I don't have benefits. I have zero. I am self employed. Although I did get to pay taxes. And those taxes went to paying the teachers in my state. Now those teachers have gotten a lot of benefits. And yet the guy who actually paid for them cannot afford them for himself. Now who is the greedy person that is only thinking of themselves? These teachers left the children and now the education of those kids is suffering. If I just walked out of a job they would fire me. Or sue me for not doing what I agreed to do. The tax payers are telling the public servants that they need a pay cut. You may not remember but public servants are paid by the tax payer. And the tax payer is the American public. Which means that the tax payer is the boss. I say since they don't want to work fire them. And hire new teachers that want to work for the money the town can afford to pay. The ones that need to make more money need to go to where higher pay can be afforded to be paid. It's simple economics. Of which I know nothing about.

America is a Republic not a Democracy. Democracy means mob rule. Both parties are guilty of destroying the Republic through mob rule. They have worked together to get things the way they want them. Then blame the other side. But behind closed doors they are all bought and sold now. In a Republic nothing can get done without compromise. There would be more than one choice for political party affiliation. A Republic stops mob rule because everyone gets a voice. Not just Dem's and Repub's. Unions are their to only serve the unions. If the company goes out of business unions don't care. Eventually the unions will have no one to represent because the job they are working at is gone. Steel industry ring a bell? How about the auto industry?

I am an American first. I am not a political party. I serve my country not the government. All this left and right is just a distraction to keep you worrying about the other side while they both steal your future and freedom. Who cares what side your on if you don't have a country. Politics is all bullshit...
 
Political fundamentalism, be it extremely conservative or extremely liberal fails because it is, by definition, certainty based on a priori belief or ideology, not empirical knowledge. The truth lies in the gray center, not on the black and white extremes. Policy works well when it is based on what works (i.e., hard data). It fails when it is emotionally (i.e., usually anger) based, and in strict, rigid conformity with a particular political group whose positions are more arbitrary than coherent and logical. I guess another way of putting it is that policy emanating from the brain's cortex is always better than policy coming from the limbic (i.e., animal) brain.
 
This is kind of cool...... by which I mean, not so much the post, but the things that I noticed while reading it.

I wouldn't argue or disagree with any statement you made, each one taken individually. My best/only complaint would be with your denial that "preserve the conservative culture" is not an ideology. To me it sounds like "if it ain't broke, don't fix it," with (what are likely) differing opinions from yours on what "broke" means.

This may be a little frank/possibly offensive (and pardon me for stalking your 'about me' a bit to suspect this, using it in combination with this thread and the content of your 'why does philosophy bring about such strong emotions?' one), but... are you sure your thoughts and opinions on what makes people [insert XYZ-traits/characteristics/types of people here] aren't being skewed by how they treat you (transgendered, furry, bdsm fetishist, and probably many other things they tend to hate & disrespect) in the first place?

As much as I know that "most ironic scenario" is not a valid criterion for determining truth, I feel like I would be a little surprised if "this is playing out in a strange way now that conservative culture has mutated to mean 'Do nothing that people who are not like you do and blame them for all of the problems that causes'" -- while true in itself -- doesn't apply to more than just conservatives.
 
Wow...I'm...actually going to have to stop and consider what Efromm has had to say here. This response comes from a well of ignorance that actually amazes me at it's depth.

1.The Protests in Wisconsin are primarily PRO-Union. The Tea Party has managed to scrape together barely 5000 people and had to bus many of them in from other states. On the pro-Union side, we've had nearly 80k mostly from within Wisconsin.

Before Walker came into office and instituted three separate tax cuts, this state was at a huge budget surplus. He took that to a deficit as an excuse to eliminate union bargaining power.

2. "Hmm so it's all the conservatives fault then? If they would just die or go away all would be fine? Is there not room for these people in the country? Maybe living on farms or working the land?"

This is a pretty typical Glenn Beck response. It's pure bait and loaded with buzzwords. You suggest death, banishment, and slavery all within one paragraph. The 'fight or flight' response I mentioned earlier is based on such buzzwords.

The 'working the land' conservatives are a supreme minority. Most major farming operations in this country are operated through super-corporations.

3.The 'Real American' should be absolutely stunned that he has no benefits but it is NOT in any way the fault of teachers or unions who do. You should have free health-care, free education, free pension, and free social safety nets. We have the money. It exists.

Financially, this country can afford to do all of that and probably get ourselves out of debt as well. Right now, we have TWO PLACES that money is going. We are making war and we are allowing mega-corporations to exist almost entirely outside of taxation. We are also maintaining the largest military on earth as well as one of the most over-militarized police forces on the planet. We have more people in jail than any other country on earth and most of them there for smoking plants. Not murder, not rape, not theft. Smoking plants.

Those 'tax breaks' that the conservative parties have touted for years have taken us from a multi-billion dollar surplus to a gigantic, untenable deficit and did not benefit the 'self employed American' that Efromm represents in any way.

4.I hear the very familiar contempt for the intelligencia here. Bragging of not having been to college and of being self-made and self-employed. Perhaps the people who move to where you are from elsewhere have a sincere point. Other countries look at America as a mad-house.

I have friends on every continent and when they hear about Americans refusing free healthcare because a psychotic drug abuser on the radio told them it's Un-American they think we're positively crazed.

Don't hold intelligent people in contempt. They are your only hope to keep your forests and your land. It is the conservative party members in this country who have supported and overseen the greatest degredations of natural resources. It is they who have watched the largest spikes in the national debt.

The conservative party is right now attempting to defund the only healthcare legislation to pass in the last fifteen years and to defund the Environmental Protection Agency. You want to let them do it, feel free.

Don't bitch about litter if you are going to do that.
 
[MENTION=2575]Chessie[/MENTION];

The liberal movement seems to actively pursue the legalisation/implementation of those things which had hereto not been allowed.

If these goals are gradually achieved, it is possible, I presume, to reach a point at which every possible thing that everyone wants permitted, to be permitted. At that point, it seems that there would be no further function for liberal activity.


What do you think would be the major items (in a list) of liberal goals achieved, so that liberal activity were no longer necessary?
 
Honestly if you were to lay out a list of 'liberal goals' that would be worth achieving it would take months or years.

I'd love to see us expand into other universes or planets, to have peaceful internal and external galactic trade of resources and to have a cosmic consciousness governed by internal empathy. I'd love to see humanity move out of their facile shells and into bodies of plasma or nanite tech or silicon. I want to see Dyson Sphere's peppering the stars and black holes harnessed for their energies.

If you mean 'short term' liberal goals there are certainly plenty worth going after. 1.This country is in desperate need of a health-care system.

2.The complete removal of corporate dollars from the political system. Publicly funded elections and a ban on private money in the electoral system.

3.A flat out ban on psychopaths and sociopaths serving in government and requisite psychiatric tests before a person is allowed to serve in government, the armed forces, the police forces, or any public office. An MRI can be used to detect a psychopath. These people should be treated with sympathy but when discovered should be stripped of anything resembling power.

4.A ban on American military forces operating anywhere else in the world and a 75% reduction in force size and spending. We should not be policing the planet.

5.A 99% reduction in our nuclear arsenal. Seriously, we have enough nukes to disinfect this planet a thousand times over. If 99% of our nukes failed to fire, we'd still be extinct from the 1% that managed it.

6.Massive renewable energy initiatives.

7.A huge tax hike for the rich. Raising taxes and penalties to comparable heights of the other G7 countries.

8.Bans on corporate mergers above a certain size and the re-institution of usury laws to end all forms of predatory lending.

9.The total end to the drug war and the legalization of all drugs with treatment based initiatives instead of prosecution. Portugal has done this and it showed a significant decrease in the number of persons using drugs and a huge uptick in treatment, a decrease in violence, and a decrease in the prevalence of HIV.

I would say these are a good start.
 
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Chessie said:
Wow...I'm...actually going to have to stop and consider what Efromm has had to say here. This response comes from a well of ignorance that actually amazes me at it's depth.

1.The Protests in Wisconsin are primarily PRO-Union. The Tea Party has managed to scrape together barely 5000 people and had to bus many of them in from other states. On the pro-Union side, we've had nearly 80k mostly from within Wisconsin.

Before Walker came into office and instituted three separate tax cuts, this state was at a huge budget surplus. He took that to a deficit as an excuse to eliminate union bargaining power.

2. "Hmm so it's all the conservatives fault then? If they would just die or go away all would be fine? Is there not room for these people in the country? Maybe living on farms or working the land?"

This is a pretty typical Glenn Beck response. It's pure bait and loaded with buzzwords. You suggest death, banishment, and slavery all within one paragraph. The 'fight or flight' response I mentioned earlier is based on such buzzwords.

The 'working the land' conservatives are a supreme minority. Most major farming operations in this country are operated through super-corporations.
So you would rather have super corporations than small farms? Super corporations that radiate food. Food that is produced with pesticides and unnatural genetic improvements? No thanks I will go organic.
3.The 'Real American' should be absolutely stunned that he has no benefits but it is NOT in any way the fault of teachers or unions who do. You should have free health-care, free education, free pension, and free social safety nets. We have the money. It exists.
America was never designed to take care of people. It was designed to be a place where you have the chance to work up from the bottom. I don't want a free anything. I just want to be able to live my life. Who am I to ask my neighbor to give me some of the money he has earned. Is it not his money? Or does he owe the nation a part of what he earns. And what part should that be?
Financially, this country can afford to do all of that and probably get ourselves out of debt as well. Right now, we have TWO PLACES that money is going. We are making war and we are allowing mega-corporations to exist almost entirely outside of taxation. We are also maintaining the largest military on earth as well as one of the most over-militarized police forces on the planet. We have more people in jail than any other country on earth and most of them there for smoking plants. Not murder, not rape, not theft. Smoking plants.
Right now we are going bankrupt because of social security and Medicaid. And because the government decided before I was born to raid the social security fund and take the money out of it for pet projects. And they never paid it back. So now it's a deep hole that is sucking the wealth out of the country. Do I think that they should cut it. No I don't. But I also think that it is disingenuous to keep telling us that their will be money waiting for us in the fund when we need it. And we all know that it won't be there for us. I am willing to die early to save the country a little money. So let people who smoke plants out of jail? How do we know that that is all they have done? And what will they do when they get out? Smoke more plants? If the people want the laws changed why can't they be changed? The Dem's have been in power for years. Pres O smoked plants when he was younger. So why won't he let plant smokers out of jail? Or legalize smoking plants? I don't know if you watch lock up raw but I am glad some of those guys are in there. Like the guy who was smoking plants and shot my buddy Steve's brother in the head for ten dollars. He was a brain surgeon. I wonder to this day how many lives he could have saved if the guy would have just asked him for the money. He would have given it to him. Mike did not need money he liked saving lives.
Those 'tax breaks' that the conservative parties have touted for years have taken us from a multi-billion dollar surplus to a gigantic, untenable deficit and did not benefit the 'self employed American' that Efromm represents in any way.
First of all I am not conservative. Second of all I admit that the repub's and dems are liars and have screwed the American people out of our future. So this statement you make is a little confusing..
4.I hear the very familiar contempt for the intelligencia here. Bragging of not having been to college and of being self-made and self-employed. Perhaps the people who move to where you are from elsewhere have a sincere point. Other countries look at America as a mad-house.
"So here you go "simpleminded" "easily manipulated persons" is what people who move here say about me and my friends. I most certainly am not simple minded or easily manipulated by anyone. And neither are the people I know. The problem is we are not allowed to be who we are. We are rejected by the other side as simple minded so we could not possibly understand anything you have to say. And since we did not go to college we of course, are not smart. We can barely count our fingers and toes ya know. Although I did get an A in toothless country anatomy. It's required for all country folk."
Maybe you have never heard of sarcasm?

Funny but your entire post was full of contempt for conservatives. Funny you can't take a little prodding back. Touche!
I have friends on every continent and when they hear about Americans refusing free healthcare because a psychotic drug abuser on the radio told them it's Un-American they think we're positively crazed.
IT"S NOT FREE! Nothing in life is free. The money has to come from somewhere. Now if the economy was going good and we all had a bucks and could afford it I would be all over it. Problem is we don;t have the money. I cannot understand how we can do these things without a healthy economy? We desperately need jobs. The government needs money and we the people are going broke. If the government is broke how can it help us?
Don't hold intelligent people in contempt. They are your only hope to keep your forests and your land. It is the conservative party members in this country who have supported and overseen the greatest degredations of natural resources. It is they who have watched the largest spikes in the national debt.

The conservative party is right now attempting to defund the only healthcare legislation to pass in the last fifteen years and to defund the Environmental Protection Agency. You want to let them do it, feel free.

Don't bitch about litter if you are going to do that.
Click to expand...

So again it's all conservatives fault? No one but conservatives killed the Native Americans? Or ruined the land. It was all just rich white slave owning conservatives. Democrat's never owned slaves. Not a single one. A democrat never drove a Native American off of his land. A democrat never murdered millions of buffalo to starve and kill off a great nation of people. They never made agreements and went back on their word. The problems with this country go all the way back to the beginning. To our fore fathers. To those men who had no respect for his fellow man. No matter what color or creed. Just as they had written and passed into law. We should all be ashamed. And yet we are not. We are still gaining benefits from the theft of the land If I had it my way I would wipe the land clean of all of us and give the Native Americans back their country. We do not deserve such a great place. I say give it back. I will go back to Russia where my family came from. Or volunteer to die if need be.

Like I said before politics is all bullshit and lies..... Their is that better?
 
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[mods]Keep it civil, folks. Remember, not everyone thinks like you do. Disagreement is fine; flaming or trolling is not. [/mods]
 
Efromm, your font is like reading someone screaming. I promise that paragraphs won't hurt and they're not socialist.
 
My font was used to distinguish my words from yours. Nothing more. I got yelled at for using blue. Excuse my red. I will change it now.....
 
Thank you. It's a lot easier to read when it's small, particularly on this monitor (My Red is a bit sketchy.)

Okay, I'm afraid I am short of responses to the things you said there. I suppose I could break down each individual piece of it.

Liberal ideology (as it is known nowadays) is less than a hundred years old. The progressive movement in this country is a relatively new development as well. The conservative ideology and culture is ancient and entrenched but in less than a hundred years has been unseated in much of this country by progressives.

This thread being called the Conservative Truth (rather than the Republican truth or the Democratic truth) relates specifically to a set of particular mindsets which are pervasive in large parts of this world.

I don't know about the stuff about giving the country back to the Native Americans and going back to Russia. I've got blood from practically every major nationality in this country so I would have a tough time finding a place to go. (16/th Cherokee included)
 
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We, as a country are actually getting more conservative. The right has been pulling that American center to the right for ages and the democratic leadership has been fine with it. The thing that was so cool about Obama's state of the union this year was that he held his ground in the center trying to keep it from running further right. Rachel Maddow has been saying this for about a month now. In the 1950's, President Eisenhower basically said that the unions needed to stay so that they protect the rights of workers. If you were to list his position on many issues, he would be a democrat by today's standards.

The reason for the Tea Party and Republicans trying to get rid of the unions is scary on a number of different ways.

If the unions are busted, the democratic party will die. This is a kill shot. Many conservatives get their campaign money from corporations while many dems get their money from unions. This, of course does not account for the total amount of money spent by campaigns but the point is that corporations are the big players for the republicans and the unions are the big players for the democrats.

Getting rid of Unions means getting rid of major supporters of dems. This is a huge power play for the republicans right now.
 
Chessie said:
Thank you. It's a lot easier to read when it's small, particularly on this monitor (My Red is a bit sketchy.)

Okay, I'm afraid I am short of responses to the things you said there. I suppose I could break down each individual piece of it.

Liberal ideology (as it is known nowadays) is less than a hundred years old. The progressive movement in this country is a relatively new development as well. The conservative ideology and culture is ancient and entrenched but in less than a hundred years has been unseated in much of this country by progressives.

This thread being called the Conservative Truth (rather than the Republican truth or the Democratic truth) relates specifically to a set of particular mindsets which are pervasive in large parts of this world.

I don't know about the stuff about giving the country back to the Native Americans and going back to Russia. I've got blood from practically every major nationality in this country so I would have a tough time finding a place to go. (16/th Cherokee included)
Click to expand...

Me too my great grandmother was Shoshone. That's why I offered to die. I am going to die anyway.

Your right I went off topic. Sorry.
And I am sure I will go off again.
As far as the Dems and repub's go I see them no different than a conservative. Liars. So for me they are all the same bunch. Governments goal is power. It has never been freedom. Even you want to govern over people. I want to be free. I want to make my own choices in life. Am I not born free? And if I am not free then who do I belong too? These are all questions I ask myself. And even though people do not get along they can still have a voice. No matter how wild or crazy they sound. People should be heard. Isn't that all people really want. To be respected and heard? Why do we have to call names and choose sides? What is the real fight about? Are we not Americans first? And what does it mean to be an American today? How would an American describe himself? Again off topic. This is my last post here..
 
efromm said:
Me too my great grandmother was Shoshone. That's why I offered to die. I am going to die anyway.

Your right I went off topic. Sorry.
And I am sure I will go off again.
As far as the Dems and repub's go I see them no different than a conservative. Liars. So for me they are all the same bunch. Governments goal is power. It has never been freedom. Even you want to govern over people. I want to be free. I want to make my own choices in life. Am I not born free? And if I am not free then who do I belong too? These are all questions I ask myself. And even though people do not get along they can still have a voice. No matter how wild or crazy they sound. People should be heard. Isn't that all people really want. To be respected and heard? Why do we have to call names and choose sides? What is the real fight about? Are we not Americans first? And what does it mean to be an American today? How would an American describe himself? Again off topic. This is my last post here..
Click to expand...

Government's goal is not to take power from people. The downfall of the man in government is that he does this. Government is essentially a good thing that is used to help people. When it's members are not there for the people, we have problems.
 
I would like to think that people could be respected and could be heard universally but there is a significant proportion of our population whose voice is loud, ill informed, and ultimately leads to bad ends.

The sad thing is I can't tell which side or where the line should be drawn. I'm not unbiased enough to do that.

Now that computers exist I think it ought to be possible to do means testing on policy. Certainly things like Jennifer Government allow people to create something resembling their ideal government. It's worth it to toy with things like that but I see such simulation working on a larger scale to determine where humanity should go and to project us into the future so we can avoid this futzing about in the dark, making policy and then waiting to see what goes wrong.
 
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