J vs P differences | Page 6 | INFJ Forum

J vs P differences

Discussion in 'Psychology and MBTI' started by Quinlan, Aug 7, 2008.

Share This Page

Watchers:
This thread is being watched by 13 users.
More threads by Quinlan
  1. Artsu Tharaz

    Artsu Tharaz Community Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2011
    Threads:
    2
    Messages:
    409
    Likes Received:
    115
    Trophy Points:
    0
    MBTI:
    infj?
    Enneagram:
    -
    Well, either Fi or "rational".

    Rational as in a sort of reasoning process; in the case of Fi it's to do with values/an internal feeling,
    as opposed to a logical sort of rationalisation (i.e. Ti). Basically, rational means process oriented, or
    "decision making", as opposed to irrational functions which "see" something and react accordingly.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  2. 88chaz88

    88chaz88 Back for a limited time only
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2010
    Threads:
    141
    Messages:
    4,872
    Featured Threads:
    1
    Likes Received:
    1,221
    Trophy Points:
    766
    MBTI:
    ????
    Enneagram:
    9w1
    Look, J and P are the easiest to spot in people. Just let someone tell you to do something.

    A J type will most commonly be direct. "Do the washing up, please." Even INFJs do this.

    A P type will be less direct in doing so. "Could you do the washing up?"

    Of course this isn't perfect, not only do they need to not be thinking about how they're phrasing (INFJs would usually use the second way if they were) but both ISTP and INTP tend to speak in a judging way.

    It's still easy to see in someone though. Js are rigid, direct, and controlling whereas Ps are fluid, indirect, and for lack of a better word, uncontrolling.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  3. Artsu Tharaz

    Artsu Tharaz Community Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2011
    Threads:
    2
    Messages:
    409
    Likes Received:
    115
    Trophy Points:
    0
    MBTI:
    infj?
    Enneagram:
    -
    Basically, you end up saying there that it's probably more indicative of T vs. F...
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  4. KazeCraven

    KazeCraven Graduated from Typology : May 2011
    Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2009
    Threads:
    76
    Messages:
    1,339
    Featured Threads:
    1
    Likes Received:
    175
    Trophy Points:
    0
    MBTI:
    IEI
    Enneagram:
    6w5 sp/sx
    The main note is probably what Jung meant by rational, so I'll give a description from 'Fe' to give you an idea:

    Also, the following is in reference to Fi and Ti:
    Also, here's something that might give you an idea of what he means by 'Fi':
    So, essentially Jung is saying that Feeling is rational because it makes discernments based on a valid way of making decisions. Someone who decides something with a well-differentiated Feeling function has something reasonable for others to follow. I am quite sure this is very distinct from deciding based on an emotional outburst. If that is using introverted Feeling, it is a case where the user is no longer controlling it, making it a crude expression of what it could be.

    Also, as a counter, here is irrationality:

     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  5. not sure

    On Holiday

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2011
    Threads:
    30
    Messages:
    2,895
    Likes Received:
    647
    Trophy Points:
    0
    MBTI:
    N/A
    Enneagram:
    N/A
    It seems like something is missing. Are the two preceding irrational types that Jung refers to S/N?
     
  6. KazeCraven

    KazeCraven Graduated from Typology : May 2011
    Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2009
    Threads:
    76
    Messages:
    1,339
    Featured Threads:
    1
    Likes Received:
    175
    Trophy Points:
    0
    MBTI:
    IEI
    Enneagram:
    6w5 sp/sx
    He is referring to the extraverted irrational types (Se-dominant and Ne-dominant).
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  7. Limit

    Limit I HAVE A CUSTOMER USER TITLE
    Donor

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2010
    Threads:
    17
    Messages:
    331
    Likes Received:
    143
    Trophy Points:
    0
    MBTI:
    ENTP
    Enneagram:
    Sexy
    *nods*

    Understanding what irrational and rational actually mean in these contexts will probably clear it up.

    Rational, like what KazeCraven is saying, is just the ability to decide and judge.
    Irrational is explaining how these functions are deprived of being able to decide and judge.

    Therefore, your Thinking and Feeling (which I remind you, both have their own extraverted and introverted preferences) decide and judge, while your irrational functions, Sensing and Intuition (which I remind you, both have their own extraverted and introverted preferences), gather information and perceive.

    So Perceivers:
    Introverted Perceivers (Commonly referred to as Pi):
    INFJ, ISFJ, INTJ, ISTJ
    Extraverted Perceivers (Commonly referred to as Pe):
    ENTP, ESFP, ESTP, ENFP

    Judgers:
    Introverted Judgers (Commonly referred to as Ji):
    INTP, ISTP, INFP, ISFP

    Extraverted Judgers (Commonly referred to as Je):
    ESTJ, ENTJ, ESFJ, ENFJ

    It’s one of the (many) reasons we categorize our types differently than every other forum out there by EJ, EP, IP, IJ, rather than the Keirsey methods of NT, NF, SP, SJ.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  8. 88chaz88

    88chaz88 Back for a limited time only
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2010
    Threads:
    141
    Messages:
    4,872
    Featured Threads:
    1
    Likes Received:
    1,221
    Trophy Points:
    766
    MBTI:
    ????
    Enneagram:
    9w1
    The trouble with this is that introverted judgers are more alike extraverted perceivers, at least in the way that decides whether you're a perceiver or judger (in basic MBTI terms anyway).

    I don't like the way that your last function is described as perceiving or judging when there are perceiving and judging functions that seem to have very little to do with it. I swear this was just done for the sake of convienience.

    I prefer to think of them as directive (J) and adaptive (P). Not only does this better describe how it's seen in people, but also how the two dominant functions in a person's type acts. Ni for example may be a perceiving function, but next to Ne it's very rigid and controlling, therefore directive.

     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    Limit likes this.
  9. Artsu Tharaz

    Artsu Tharaz Community Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2011
    Threads:
    2
    Messages:
    409
    Likes Received:
    115
    Trophy Points:
    0
    MBTI:
    infj?
    Enneagram:
    -
    It's fun to hypothesise about what discussions each type group would have.

    What would NJ's discuss? IT's? EP's?
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  10. Limit

    Limit I HAVE A CUSTOMER USER TITLE
    Donor

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2010
    Threads:
    17
    Messages:
    331
    Likes Received:
    143
    Trophy Points:
    0
    MBTI:
    ENTP
    Enneagram:
    Sexy
    Would probably be better to make a separate thread for that.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  11. Artsu Tharaz

    Artsu Tharaz Community Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2011
    Threads:
    2
    Messages:
    409
    Likes Received:
    115
    Trophy Points:
    0
    MBTI:
    infj?
    Enneagram:
    -
    They were rhetorical questions; just a thinking point.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  12. Artsu Tharaz

    Artsu Tharaz Community Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2011
    Threads:
    2
    Messages:
    409
    Likes Received:
    115
    Trophy Points:
    0
    MBTI:
    infj?
    Enneagram:
    -
    Adaptation

    When a P wants to change how they interact with their environment, they change what they think.

    When a J wants to change how they interact with their environment, they change their environment.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    jyrffw54 likes this.
  13. NYLilac

    NYLilac Community Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2011
    Threads:
    11
    Messages:
    164
    Likes Received:
    21
    Trophy Points:
    118
    Gender:
    Female
    MBTI:
    INFP
    Enneagram:
    2w1
    Anica, have you tried the cognitive function test at keys2cognition.com? That helped me sort out my "Typing: problem. Would you mind taking the test and sharing your results with us/
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  14. shapeshifter

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2012
    Threads:
    0
    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Enneagram:
    None
    Somewhat disagree. Social class factors into the equation in phrasing (look into philosophy of education) of requests/demands for behavior. Studies show lower class students respond better to direct commands because in many cases survival at home greatly depends on following the immediate direction of parents. In contrast, higher class students respond better to open-ended questions because survival is less of an issue and thus creativity and choice are encouraged with greater emphasis. Given this evidence, I'm not sure you can sum up MBTI with your distinction of direct/less direct phrasing.
     
  15. Sage of Sages

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Threads:
    0
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    MBTI:
    INTJ
    Enneagram:
    Achiever
    J types are judgers. They tend to work with a specific goal in mind. This leads them to concentrate on an organized field with intense thought.
    P types are perceivers. They tend to work with a mind free of a goal. This leads them to be laid back and explore possibilies of things.
     
  16. Avanstark

    Avanstark Three

    Joined:
    May 4, 2013
    Threads:
    1
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    MBTI:
    INFP
    I think of "P" as "go with the flow." and "J" as "stick to your guns." With that said, if the environment is focused on results, the "Ps" will align their results with the results asked for. The "Js" will align their results with the results that they know (subjective) need to be taken. If you include "I," "N,"and "F" into the equation, the INFP's may keep a secret agenda based on their moral beliefs. For example, if a male INFP works for a company that is dominantly against female empowerment and the INFP is for female empowerment, you will see the the INFP will act normally, gain trust, and at the same time work towards empowering women with more opportunities and silent personal conversations with others about the topic. The INFJ male will be the one to be much more secretly judgmental about the whole thing. They'll watch the "tyrants" walk amongst the crowds and wait for moments to be very vocal about everything. When they get most worked up, they will likely communicate their frustration in a very cold and harsh tone that can damage, aggravate, or scare their coworkers. It won't be hard for INFJs to regain their stature, but INFJs may also develop an inability to let go leading to medical issues or maybe even irrational behavior.

    I hope this helped. And I would like to make clear that the above are based on my understanding of the personality types.
     
  17. YourFavoriteNightmare

    YourFavoriteNightmare Community Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2013
    Threads:
    12
    Messages:
    143
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    0
    MBTI:
    INTJ
    Enneagram:
    5w6
    Rethinking Judging and Perceiving. This could explain it far better than I can try and sum it up. Great read and maybe, maybe not, enlightening.

    http://personalityjunkie.com/03/judging-perceiving-ijs-ips/

    But the core is such...(yes, I simply copied and pasted =P)

    Extraverts: Since their first extraverted function is also their dominant function, the J-P label aptly describes their dominant mode of functioning.
    Introverts: Since their first extraverted function is their auxiliary function, the J-P label belies their dominant mode of functioning.

    To better understand these Judging-Perceiving issues, consider the following discussion of the J-P characteristics of the various types:
    EPs: EPs might be considered the “purest” Perceivers of all the Myers-Briggs types. Not only do they display Perceiving in their outer behavior and demeanor (e.g., open, adaptable, receptive), but their dominant function (Ne or Se) is also a Perceiving function.
    EJs: EJs might be considered the “purest” Judging types. Not only do they display Judging in their outer behavior and demeanor (e.g., assertive, intentional, directive, opinionated), but their dominant function (Te or Fe) is also a Judging function.
    IPs: IPs are a mix of J-P characteristics. Since their dominant function is a Judging function (Ti or Fi), they are inner Judgers. IPs are far more serious inwardly than they appear outwardly. Rather than remaining open to new information like healthy EPs, they feel driven to move toward closure and to have things settled in their minds like EJs. They want to hammer down what they believe in order to have a platform from which to make important decisions about their lives. When their beliefs shaken into state of uncertainty, IPs tend to feel unsettled, aimless, and anxious. This anxiety prompts them to avidly locate answers so they can return to a point of comfortable closure and intentional action.
    IPs are also like EJs in that they tend to think in terms of what they should be doing. They like to set goals for themselves (especially INPs), even if they rarely end up sticking to them. They tend to approach life with an agenda or a certain set of expectations. Upon waking, they consciously work to determine what they want to/should do and then initiate the process. At least when it comes to initiating tasks, IPs are as disciplined as any EJ.
    IJs: IJs are also a mix of J-P characteristics. Outwardly, they look like Judgers. They can be assertive and opinionated, even resembling EJ types. But since their dominant function is a Perceiving function (Ni or Si), they are inner Perceivers. Indeed, they are dominant Perceivers. So in reality, IJs are far less serious, closed, or judgmental than they may appear outwardly.
    While IPs are inwardly controlling, IJs inner world is characterized by openness and allowing. Assuming they are not coerced by outside obligations, IJs are not inclined to impose rules or agendas on themselves. Unlike IPs, who start the day with a Judging mindset (Ti or Fi), IJs prefer a more leisurely and perceptive approach (Ni or Si), allowing their Judging process (Fe or Te) emerge organically or spontaneously rather than intentionally. Therefore, when it comes to initiating the Judging process, IJs may procrastinate as long as EPs.
     
  18. Ghoulia Yelps

    Ghoulia Yelps Community Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2013
    Threads:
    18
    Messages:
    202
    Featured Threads:
    1
    Likes Received:
    26
    Trophy Points:
    0
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Enneagram:
    4w3
    I think with the NF types the J/P difference seems negligible.
    That's why it's so hard to differentiate between INFJ and INFP.
    With the SP / SJ it defines their type.
    Not so with ours.
     
  19. Sequel

    Sequel Newbie

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2013
    Threads:
    0
    Messages:
    27
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    MBTI:
    infj
    Enneagram:
    4
    My desk is usually messy counter to some strong opinions held about the J type that I've read. Little details like that confuse me. About the desk, right now I have a ton of papers to sort, complete, and/or shred. I have my writing utensils contained in a couple keepers, smallish calendars sent to me by ambitious salespersons, lying at the bottom of the several stacks of semi organized piles I already mentioned. Is this J or P? Tell me, please!! :)
     
  20. sassafras

    On Holiday

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2009
    Threads:
    172
    Messages:
    14,097
    Featured Threads:
    7
    Likes Received:
    41,536
    Trophy Points:
    2,376
    MBTI:
    .
    The differences between J and P don't come down to a messy desk, sorry to say.

    What makes you J or P is whether the first judging function (T or F) in your stack is extroverted (Judger) or introverted (Perceiver). That's pretty much it.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
Loading...

Share This Page