J vs P differences | Page 7 | INFJ Forum

J vs P differences

Discussion in 'Psychology and MBTI' started by Quinlan, Aug 7, 2008.

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  1. Erlian

    Erlian Community Member

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    That's only if you follow the cognitive function MBTI. Which is arguably very different from the dichotomy MBTI. There are some similarities, but if you want to go a bit deeper than a short description, they can't be said to be the same.

    If you want to know about dichotomy MBTI, where you type someone on all four dichotomies and not with the help of functions, check out user reckful on the intj forum. He has very informatie posts. For example this one on the J/P difference.
    http://intjforum.com/showpost.php?p=3437537&postcount=12

    Edit: He's more scientific accurate instead of giving a nice-to-read description, but that's what I personally prefer.
     
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  2. blacklight

    blacklight Newbie

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    I quoted a post back from 2013 but couldn't help it because I read the article today and it was very interesting. It really messes up the stereotypical J/P descriptions and I like it!

    What really got my attention was the comparison of IP/EJ and IJ/EP thought processes when performing a task: (from the website linked above)

    "We might summarize IPs’ process in the following way:
    J Starting point: Ti or Fi (“I should or want to do…”)
    Move into auxiliary (P): Ne or Se (may get sidetracked or distracted here)
    Desired J Endpoint: Fe or Te closure
    Visually, this process resembles a diamond. IPs start with a specific objective (Ti or Fi), diverge outwardly (Se or Ne), then work to reign in this expansion and bring it toward a point of closure (Fe or Te). A similar process would be seen among EJ types."

    "Unlike IPs, who start the day with a Judging mindset (Ti or Fi), IJs prefer a more leisurely and perceptive approach (Ni or Si), allowing their Judging process (Fe or Te) emerge organically or spontaneously rather than intentionally. Therefore, when it comes to initiating the Judging process, IJs may procrastinate as long as EPs. Once their Judging process is initiated, however, IJs begin to look more like Judging types. They may, for instance, suddenly feel compelled to write a blog post, compose a song, or solve a problem. While IPs’ transition from their dominant to auxiliary function is one of increasing divergence, IJs’ more toward greater convergence (Te or Fe). But unlike IPs, who prefer to finish with closure, IJs hope to end in a state of openness (Se or Ne). Visually, IJs’ process resembles an hourglass moving from openness (P) to closure (J) and back to openness (P):
    P Starting point: Ni or Si
    Move into J auxiliary: Te or Fe
    Desired P Endpoint: Se or Ne"

    Don't know what to think of all this yet but it definitely gave me something new to consider. Do you see yourself fitting in?
     
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  3. charlatan

    charlatan Permanent Fixture

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    Correct.

    I think a good way to see this is to say that what really doesn't work is the conversion from dichotomies to functions.

    I think there's some valid-ish statements such as saying that the typical MBTI descriptions of Ne sound more like a perceiver's orientation than typical MBTI descriptions Ni which tend to evoke things like foresight rather than mere expansiveness of context (foresight is a definite NJ theme). But really what I'd view this as is that the dichotomies are somehow broader. There's a general theme where perceiving is overall less centered on organization/decision/extracting, and judging more so.

    I have found the place the correlations work worst between dichotomies and functions is in distinguishing the two kinds of judging. In particular, I would not agree an INFJ sounds decidedly less like a Fi type than Fe necessarily. However, I would agree an ENTP sounds more like a Ne type than Ni, and so does INTP. Similarly, Se versus Si as presented by the MBTI does evoke the picture of P versus J to an extent, where Si is focused more on reliability and what works.

    It's also crucial to note that MBTI's Ni, Ne, etc are not quite the same as what Carl Jung had in mind. They are revised to fit the dichotomies more closely.

    While these are common things you'll find online, I warn that IP types really don't seem to necessarily be JiPe types. That is one of the least proved aspects of the theory, and it's safer to say that JiPe has become its own pattern. The idea that INFP are FiNe is now to the point where INFP is just a code. As the user above you posted, there's actually a lot of research behind the four letter codes which you could see in say an MBTI manual. It is very empiricism oriented research, but it's definitely serious work they've done.

    There are loose truths here of course - for instance, introversion does contribute to a less Ne orientation (less scattered, more inclined to reduce the flow of energy in a divergent way)...which can be rationalized as Fi or Ti "cutting down" the Ne. But I've never found much truth to the idea that a clear dichotomies IP type has to be JiPe. It doesn't seem to correlate with the data either.

    However, it is worth keeping in mind that Carl Jung thought your top two functions can both be introverted or extraverted, and saw this is as closer to the norm in clear introverts and clear extraverts than really a sort of anomaly.
     
    #123 charlatan, Jan 5, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2015
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  4. MegaPixelMusic

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    Lots of interesting ideas to mull over in here. I'm fairly lazy and it's hard to get going sometimes to get things done. Along with a completely crap working memory and a tendency to get 'comfortable' in a disorganized environment I'm inclined to see myself as a P type. I also have an extreme one track mind when it comes to getting things done. I can't clean as I go, it must be two separate steps for me.

    But I've noticed I get neurotic when things aren't planned and organized. Whenever I get something done I need to know the process and set out the way I'm going to do it before I start. I'm the first to read directions whenever I do anything. In fact this leads me to not do things, since I feel I need to know all the steps and have an awareness of the whole process before I even start. I also tend to clean and organize in response to others, when people are coming over and tend to be organized and prepared for everything. I do like to organize and find the perfect way to put everything.... it just takes a lot of energy.

    I also NEED music. I just can't get those boring mundane tasks done without it. I like to set aside a day to crank the music and get the cleaning done.

    I also work much better with routine, though it's hard to get the routine going.

    Most of the things I like to get prepared with seems to be around people... I'm extremely paranoid about disappointing people... especially with something I've planned or arranged. I'm extremely reluctant to initiate things, but when I do I'm going to make sure it's great.

    I believe most of this is J territory
     
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  5. Lsjnzy13

    Lsjnzy13 Newbie

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    When I'm with my INFJ friend and if we were to plan a hangout, he needs to plan the date a whole week in advance, as well as the time and place etc.

    With my Perceiving friends we hardly ever plan. Usually it's just a text message saying "are you free now?" and if the person says ok then I'm over at their place in five minutes.
    My ESFP friend usually comes over without asking (since she knows my schedule pretty well and knows when I'm at home or not). The first time she did that I got a text saying "I'm in your backyard, please get your dog to stop licking me."

    I'm a P so I prefer being spontaneous. The problem with 'planning' hangouts with my judging friends is that by the time comes I would've forgotten about it. (My memory is worse than Dory's!) XD

    EDIT: Oh yeah and also, my judging friends always hand in their assignments a week before due date. Meanwhile I'm always the kid who either hands it in on the due date or tell the teacher on the due date that I accidentally left it at home.
     
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  6. j654dgj7

    j654dgj7 Please delete this account.

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  7. Trent

    Trent Community Member

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    Yep, I believe that is the 'follow-through' variable. We need like 10 letters to fully describe the personality. I like a neat office & house or at least relative order like people care about where and what they live in, but my follow-through on ideas is equal to the messy house or office I walk into. Uhmazing. I do follow through and I don't. Perhaps Ghandi followed through.
     
  8. charlatan

    charlatan Permanent Fixture

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    If you'd like to look at strong personality correlates of J/P you should seek out the Big 5 Conscientiousness dimension.
    Many inventories measure facets of the domains, breaking the domains up into more basic components, so that more middle of the road preferences can still be accurately described.

    That is where all this cognitive functions appeal even began -- people realize they can't decide their dichotomies types, and then resort to finding their type by functions. This makes no sense! You're finding your type in an ultimately different system. Time-tested studies have disproved that there's any reasonable way to associate the cognitive functions patterns in the common archetypes used (like Ni-Fe-Ti-Se) to the dichotomies.

    I don't deny that someone thinking conceptually about the systems can find some meaning in those archetypes. I have adopted one for myself, as posters can see, despite hardly believing this is the only way of organizing Jungian ideas, and acknowledging that in his system, with somewhat different emphases, the idea that the aux and dom alternate in attitude is thoroughly false.
    But to suggest the dichotomies are not tapping into deep, fundamental aspects of personality belies just how much is organized by the Big 5 successfully. They explain just how various specifics (facets) fit into broad motivational drives.

    For instance, they show that feelings fit into many different types of psychological drives; one is the neuroticism area, signaling distress. One is to convey reward. And still another is to convey things like richness of experience, meaning, and so on (see the Openness to Feelings facet of Openness/Intellect).

    The test items may measure relatively shallow things like how organized someone is. But there's a very broad, deeper general psychological trait, one that requires statistical analysis to uncover, organizing the shared variance of the traits loading on Conscientiousness, which is a kind of broad "imposing order vs letting things unfold" dichotomy, which definitely has deep psychological implications and is very much at the heart of many observations C.G. Jung made on the irrational-rational dichotomy.

    The test is an identification tool, not the full theory. For that we study the many correlates along with solid analysis of why certain traits cluster together.
     
  9. Miso

    Miso Newbie

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    The J/P dichotomy is more likely delineated by an individual's attitude towards the environment to fit his developed values best in it (which were oriented to him via tapering stimuli or operant conditioning --> "why does an individual's cognitive functions operate that way?"). One may experience perception as insurgent or defective, giving rise to identifying with judgments. Or he could experience judgments as absurd or too abrogating therefore an attachment to perception. J/P doesn't affect the three letter orientation though, cognitive strength ≠ cognitive preferences and fuck I really suck at explaining sorry. Here's a video where I got the idea from:

    [video=youtube;OIHWe_a0AoE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIHWe_a0AoE[/video]

    reference: http://worldsocionics.blogspot.com/
     
  10. Miso

    Miso Newbie

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    People generally find others with similar cognitive strength more engaging.

    INFJ:
    Ni | Fi
    Fe | Ne
    Ti | Si
    Se | Te

    Conscious Ni is more valued in introverts while unconscious Fi is more valued in extroverts
    INFJs would have more understanding of INJs over INPs, ISPs over ISJs (F/T)
    INFJs would have more understanding of EFPs over EFJs, ETJs over ETPs (N/S)
    So people more likely to have moral precision or other INFJ traits according to cognitive strength are as follow:

    INFJ
    INFP
    INTJ
    INTP
    ENFP
    ENFJ
    ENTJ
    ENTP

    ISFP
    ISFJ
    ISTP
    ISTJ
    ESFP
    ESFJ
    ESTJ
    ESTP


    For the sake of this system's cognitive discrimination, we can look at P types in reverse order

    For INTPs, conscious Ti is more valued in introverts while unconscious Ni is more valued in extroverts
    INTPs would have more understanding of ITPs over ITJs, IFJs over IFPs (T/F)
    INTPs would have more understanding of ENJs over ENPs, ESPs over ESJs (N/S)
    So people more likely to have intellectual accuracy according to cognitive strength are as follow:

    INTP

    INTJ
    INFJ
    INFP
    ENTJ
    ENTP
    ENFJ
    ENFP

    ISTP
    ISTJ
    ISFJ
    ISFP
    ESTP
    ESTJ
    ESFP
    ESFJ
     
  11. Kaotiklysm

    Kaotiklysm Regular Poster

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    I find that J vs P can be the easiest dichotomy to identify in person. Js seem pro-active, as if they are always moving along some kind of goal-directed path (or searching for something to make a goal), whereas Ps are more reactive, and tend to just be laidback but respond to what goes on in the environment more. It can be seen prominently in body language. There's also some more in-between body language that is more centred and sometimes closed off (usually whilst sitting still) where it can be hard to tell if the focus of perception is inward or outward. I think I probably enter this ambiguous body-language when I engage Se (and maybe Ti).
     
  12. cptawesome

    cptawesome Community Member

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    First take into account the moodiness of an INTP,INFP, (INFJ), INTJ, whether they are organized or not it depends on how important it is at that moment and how it will affect them later.
     
  13. ElleG

    ElleG Newbie

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    This is a great question and something I've dived deep into because I noticed that J and P seem to be, for me, the main source of tension in my own relationships and relationships I've observed. I also think the MBTi is quantitative and that has led to a lot of misconceptions around J and P and causes people to mistype themselves and others.

    Briefest explanation: J and P are used to denote whether a person's primary judging function is extroverted (Fe and Te) or introverted (Fi and Ti), but I would say it can be hard to tell if a person introverts their judgment or extroverts it unless you have an interpersonal relationship with them or engage with them on a regular basis. If you look at the functional stacks of all the MBTi types, you'll see that all P's have an Fi or Ti as their primary judging function and all J's have an Fe or Te as their primary judging function.

    Example:
    INFJ = Ni-Fe-Ti-Se (Fe is their primary judging function)
    INFP = Fi-NE-Si-Te (Fi is their primary judging function)

    Here is a great write up that I found super helpful when I was exploring "J vs P":

    http://psychologyjunkie.com/2015/09...standing-what-the-jp-preference-really-means/
     
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