INFJs, Changing or Losing Religious Faith

[randomsomeone]

Traumas in life surely do make a big difference. I think every one I have faced brought about a big change....with me it usually meant un-knowing a good many things things. That destruction, however, always brought about something new and unforeseen.

I do think we tend to make one (quite natural) assumption about God....that this Presence is all-powerful. But human tyranny, hatred, and cruelty has almost always trumped God's power when they had the chance. Every horror imaginable has been visited upon persons across the ages....even God's own faithful. I think God reaches to us as far as possible, but there are many, many constraints...nevermind those within us. It is a far more complex picture than we can imagine. Yet, hidden in the mess, there is great cause for hope.

 

[Billy]

Lol, silly Billy. :becky:


I kid, I kid.

I know you kid, but using scripture to fight a battle in which the scripture is being called faulty is... I dunno... not good.

 

[Billy]

Traumas in life surely do make a big difference. I think every one I have faced brought about a big change....with me it usually meant un-knowing a good many things things. That destruction, however, always brought about something new and unforeseen.

I do think we tend to make one (quite natural) assumption about God....that this Presence is all-powerful. But human tyranny, hatred, and cruelty has almost always trumped God's power when they had the chance. Every horror imaginable has been visited upon persons across the ages....even God's own faithful. I think God reaches to us as far as possible, but there are many, many constraints...nevermind those within us. It is a far more complex picture than we can imagine. Yet, hidden in the mess, there is great cause for hope.

By that logic, mankind doesn't need god as its too feeble and weak to really give us what we want/need.

 

[randomsomeone]

By that logic, mankind doesn't need god as its too feeble and weak to really give us what we want/need.

Quite to the contrary...this, too (along with the tyranny), is borne out historically in countless people's lives. There is something else at work.

 

[Billy]

Quite to the contrary...this, too (along with the tyranny), is borne out historically in countless people's lives. There is something else at work.

If there is something at work, it is either not conscious of us, or it doesn't care for our petty concerns. Either way, useless to us.

 

[randomsomeone]

If there is something at work, it is either not conscious of us, or it doesn't care for our petty concerns.

That has been your experience and why you have given up on the whole matter...no problem. For many, though, the real-world experience has been quite different and transformative, even through suffering. It is actually a very rich and interesting subject....even more complex given all the factors at work. Either way, I can't judge someone else's journey in life...we are where we are.

 

[Billy]

That has been your experience and why you have given up on the whole matter...no problem. For many, though, the real-world experience has been quite different and transformative, even through suffering. It is actually a very rich and interesting subject....even more complex given all the factors at work. Either way, I can't judge someone else's journey in life...we are where we are.

some suffering is worse then others. Also, I find it ironic for someone to believe in god then be ok that someone else doesn't... especially to prescribe to any of the abrahamic religions which tend to look down on others.

 

[Sensiko]

I think if it only appeared to me I would question my own sanity. If god was to reveal itself it would have to be to everybody. Anyone crazy can "see and hear" god.


I did and have, 100s of time when my life was in danger, when I was being molested, when every horrible thing that should never happen to a person did happen to me. He never answered. Apparently he only comes to those who dont need him, in that case, he can go fuck himself, what a useless deity. So when you speak of "rock bottom" well, been there worse than some have seen but not as bad as others I admit... and the only source of strength I found was later after I had been hurt and healed and learned to cope, on my own. At no time did any god assist, I turned in my most hopeless hours to a god that quite simply wasn't there or didn't care. Please dont take this as "a wounded lost sheep who is mad at god for abandoning it when it needed him most" That may have made me ask the questions, but it wasn't the reason I disbelieved.

Agreed, crazy people see and hear God all the time. But would you agree that sane people see and hear God also? Or would you consider anyone who has a claim to communicating with God crazy?

I can only try to understand how devastating your experiences were. That should never have happened to you and I hope whoever that was pays dearly for what they did, in one way or another. I see your point and quite honestly, would probably feel the same way under the same situation. Your point that he only comes to those who don't need him is a generalization. We could argue the point that God wasn't there/didn't care until we run out of breath, but no one really knows for sure until we die. Our experiences are the only proof we can rely on until then, unfortunately.

Maybe I missed it, but what was the reason you disbelieved?

 

[randomsomeone]

I find it ironic for someone to believe in god then be ok that someone else doesn't...

Life is a journey, people make their choices....I cannot judge where another person might be in the grand scheme of things. If God respects our individuality and choices in these matters, how could I do otherwise? Besides, God never, ever closes the door on us, although we might do that ourselves...and yes, that includes all of us.

tend to look down on others.

That is a frightfully narrow view of a big very picture, I'm afraid.

 

[VH]

I find it ironic for someone to believe in god then be ok that someone else doesn't...

I'd find it counter to the tenets of Christianity to not be ok that someone else doesn't. The number one guideline of the faith is "Love one another". How can we love people and not let them make their own choices and decisions? Granted, a lot of Christians get this part very wrong... but, how are people who are not part of the faith supposed to have any idea what the faith is about if they are not shown the unconditional love that God gives us (to the best of our ability), but are instead shown hostility and contentiousness?

 

[Matariki]

I don't know why but I have the sudden urge to post up a whole load of theology and apologetics, but for the Agnostics here finding out whether God exists or not should be your own greatest ambition. As for the Atheists, you wouldn't agree anyway with what I would post in defense to the scirpture and you'd probably hate me (and if not me, then what I would say) even with me giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Its not a battle worth fighting on these forums.

Once again I fell for the temptation of posting in threads that I shouldn't be posting in, not because I don't know the answers to the questions, but because some people don't want to know.

 

[SpilledMilk]

Most interesting. I leave for a few days, expecting this to merely be a ho-hum, dry recital of one's personal beliefs and it transforms into a regular old religious "prove it" shoving match.

Of course, the arguments here are a fascinating peek into INFJ advocacy/defense of beliefs (assuming everyone is indeed INFJ). Seems like INFJs believers/nonbelievers (in Christianity, at least here) come from the same angles as other types.

Not saying that this is bad at all for analysis from my perspective. But I do agree with the prior comment that neither believers nor unbelievers will convince each other through this mode. Belief comes from personal conviction. Quoting scripture will go nowhere. And asking believers to "prove" their deity's existence is also unproductive.

Anyway, I do wish to continue the original topic of INFJ's personal beliefs' evolution; please continue to post what/how you believe and if it has changed at all. Thanks!

 

[VH]

(assuming everyone is indeed INFJ)

I am pretty sure this isn't the case.

There is a lot of the standard Ti (prove it, and I won't accept anything other than detailed evidence) vs. Fe (this is how I feel reality should work, regardless of circumstantial assumptions) in this thread.

You'll notice that when Fe opposes Fe, it's almost always a case of "I feel it is this way" "No, I feel it is this way", quickly escalating into "Here's why I feel this way and you should too", "No, my way is the right way and you should feel the same way", and finally "Whatever. You're clearly wrong... just cuz." However, Fe vs. Fe usually goes like this... "I feel it is this way" versus "I feel it is this way", followed by "Okay then, you're entitled to feel that way..." Understanding that the subject of faith isn't in question... but rather what the faith is in.

Ti can't accept the ethical big picture of 'faith' without 'proof', and ends up in an endless loop on the subject of faith - which by nature transcends 'proof', otherwise it wouldn't be faith. Ti doms and secondaries have to develop their Fe before they can really accept anything on 'faith' without ample 'proof'.

 

[Billy]

I am pretty sure this isn't the case.

There is a lot of the standard Ti (prove it, and I won't accept anything other than detailed evidence) vs. Fe (this is how I feel reality should work, regardless of circumstantial assumptions) in this thread.

You'll notice that when Fe opposes Fe, it's almost always a case of "I feel it is this way" "No, I feel it is this way", quickly escalating into "Here's why I feel this way and you should too", "No, my way is the right way and you should feel the same way", and finally "Whatever. You're clearly wrong... just cuz." However, Fe vs. Fe usually goes like this... "I feel it is this way" versus "I feel it is this way", followed by "Okay then, you're entitled to feel that way..." Understanding that the subject of faith isn't in question... but rather what the faith is in.

Ti can't accept the ethical big picture of 'faith' without 'proof', and ends up in an endless loop on the subject of faith - which by nature transcends 'proof', otherwise it wouldn't be faith. Ti doms and secondaries have to develop their Fe before they can really accept anything on 'faith' without ample 'proof'.

As IF we ONLY use 1 function over the other. Fe should not be used when trying to think about something that makes sense, and Faith doesn't "transcend" anything, it simply isn't compatible with proof because its whole point of being is to believe without considering proof. Which is the punchline to religion.

 

[Billy]

Faulty? By whom?

By people who dont subscribe to its message. The point I am making is that when someone says "hey there is no god, the bible is just a book written by some dusty dead roman dudes a long time ago" you can really come back with "no god is real, the proof is right here in the scripture..." it doesnt make sense.

 

[Billy]

I'd find it counter to the tenets of Christianity to not be ok that someone else doesn't. The number one guideline of the faith is "Love one another". How can we love people and not let them make their own choices and decisions? Granted, a lot of Christians get this part very wrong... but, how are people who are not part of the faith supposed to have any idea what the faith is about if they are not shown the unconditional love that God gives us (to the best of our ability), but are instead shown hostility and contentiousness?

Yeah well you are definitely the minority in it then, because your religions history is counter to what it subscribes to as its tenants... plus the religious texts contradict itself all over the place. How do you know WHICH bits to follow over the other, and what makes you think you are any more right then the lunatics who handle snakes or burn witches?

 

[David54]

I grew up in a protestant church. . one that I refer to as the "church of what's happening now". . one very focused on social issues. . more so than teaching the gospel. . was very involved. . youth group. . attending synod meetings, even the national synod. . then went to college and it sort of drifted away. . I think it was the fact the church I went to did not really preach the message of grace and salvation. . did not really tell the full message of the good news. . .then fast forward to my 40's. . .
I was with a person that was very devote. . they did not convert me, but reather challenged me to contemplate the road to God. . how do we get there. . .and I came to the aanswer on my own through returning to scripture. .
now. . .I do not accept the church's doctrimes on many things. . and to me, the bible is a story of man's relationship to God. . I get that the bible was politically created and that much of original Christianity was lost at the Council of Nicea(spelling?) personally I think tha the gnostic version of Christianity is probably closer to the truch or the message of Jesus, but it is lost. .
I have been a memeber of the Assemblies of God. . . only to leave due to issues of the Catholic church. . which if anyone cares to understand the history of Christianity will see that the Catholic church was the christian church until the 1600's. . and that the reformation was not an attemp to create new churches, but reather an atempt to make change in the church..
I currently belong to the ELCA. . . (Lutheran)
I found my own way back. . . .am a person of great faith. . accept grace gladly. . i igonore those church things that are , in my mind, wrong. .but I do not let that distract me from the message of hope and grace in faith. .

 

[Andy Quellenlicht]

It's very difficult for INFJs to be religious. We tend to see through the construct of religion. However, a lot of us are very spiritual, and some of us are very spiritually Christian.

i agree! religion, to me, is a language-system around an experience that had the effect of a paradigm shift, a conversion, a significant change. the language is borrowed from the specific context in which the person, which has had the experience, lives - so in a way, it's arbitrary, which does not mean irrelevant. arbitrary means that, in another context, the religious language linked to the experience would be quite different.

in contrast to psychosis, those who did an experience of the religious kind are able to cope with life after the experience and are often doing it even better (according to their own evaluation, but somewhat this is also true when looking from the outside).

when religious language is relativized to this point, I can freely use it as the fingertip pointing to the moon, as buddhists say; a specific religious language is then like a way of saying the ineffable while knowing it cannot be said. the experiences are a spiritual path - and it's never given or granted, that they are also something else than a process within our psyche.

so, I tend to think that infjs, when focused on their primary function Ni, ar not prone to be stable adherents of a specific "church" representig a specific religion. well, they might do so, but then, it would be based more on a role they assume to get along with the outer world (Fe).

there are other motives to be religious, like fear: chaos, hell, torture, judgment, revenge - i did not take this into account since this seems to me to be a projection of a sado-masochistic conflict within the human soul, in other words, a e6-pattern: to be ones own enemy - this is then projected to the outer world. this construct deals with power to counteract the supposed threat: the deity/ultimate reality will give power against the enemy if one becomes a subordinate of this deity (conversion by fear). in such a system, fear is not the explicit motivation - it's hidden under the signifier "love". love the one that will grant you liberation/bliss etc. if you don't love him/her, you will suffer. so you love your potential punisher out of fear (and fear and true love cannot coexist, as john, in the bible, puts it). but the power-game can also be one of participating in the deity's powers: if i do/think/don't do x, i shall be given powers from the deity, and I shall be powerfull (often called "blessed", "gifted").

what i describe here in an abstract language has been my way with religion. my starting point as a kid was a fundamentalistic christian church having as its basis the enneagram-6-pattern.

 

[randomsomeone]

I tend to think that infjs, when focused on their primary function Ni, are not prone to be stable adherents of a specific "church" representing a specific religion.

An interesting observation...you may well be right! I have found lots of room to navigate within my own religion and this has helped immensely. The change happened when I began to note the different voices/functions taking place within my community. The "theological" voice articulated recognized common beliefs (dogma and similar) and various other norms. These do provide, I feel, a legitimate service in sustaining the community in a kind of unity across time and around the world.

But then, more and more, I began to encounter the "pastoral" voice that dealt with the spiritual journey and the dynamic of inner transformation. It is a very caring and giving voice, one that seems to have no illusions about the complexities and diversities of the human condition and yet, at the same time, defers to this unconditional (and often irrational) love that proceeds from the Divine Life.

While a faith community may stand on it's theological perspective (there are heirarchies to these and even some room to choose, I find), I think it is the pastoral perspective that really guides the day-to-day workings and interaction that take place in real life. This is a much more Ni friendly zone. Above all and in all....I see supreme respect and deference given to the workings of Spirit, and this may be the most Ni friendly zone of all!

It is a balancing act I see going on....a seeking to offer each person an equillibrium that ennobles, and enlightens and liberates...not confuse, frustrate and condemn (something we all too often do to our own selves!!). Ultimately, the objective is to guide us towards a fully human existence, one that is alive and free. It is just interesting to see these things at work over and over as the years go by, even though the perceptions from the outside may be completely different.

 

[Andy Quellenlicht]

hi randomsomeone,

to me the theological voice including common beliefs would be primarily linked to Fe: a stabilizing role for oneself and for others. this stabilization is necessary because the realm of Ni is not a place where one can dwell - it's under the surface and its pull is strong and the direction unclear. it makes us move in a certain direction and thereby liberating the way from so many obstacles. this is what I see in what you call the pastoral voice. it's a liberating one, for a new perception - or, in theological terms, encounter with the spirit. so, as you say, i see like the two function of Ni and Fe in your ministry. the equilibrium i relate to Fe, and the liberation based on enlightenment (letting go an enslaving perception), which i relate to Ni. yes, and then comes the question of balance of Ni and Fe. as my years go by, i see that first was Ni, almost alone. then for more than 2 decades, Fe played an important role to somewhat find a place in the outer world. now, i come back more and more to Ni - and not to Se, as the jungian integration-ideal would have it. how do you see the functions work in your life?