Frankly, my knowledge of the subject you have presented is far more limited than yours, but I like where you are going with this. I'd say our experiences are similar.
INFJs, Changing or Losing Religious Faith
- Thread starter SpilledMilk
- Start date
Okay, this is deeply personal, and I'm only revealing it because you asked a direct question. I'm not here to undermine anyone else's faith or to proselytize. I'm just sharing my experience, since you asked.
I was raised christian (fundamentalist) and was very devout even as an adult. When I was a young adult, I learned that the New Testament was a product of the Catholic bishops, and that really the only reason it had any authority was because the bishops had authority. So I expressed my christian walk as a Catholic. As I grew older, certain historical issues that had gotten under my skin simply began to fester. In particular, I am convinced that Christian antisemitism is the child of Replacement Theology (that G-d divorced Isael and the Church is now His bride.) That the church fostered this belief as a major part of its ecclesiology all the way up to Vatican 2 is evidence that the bishops can make theological mistakes that lead to great evil. Once I lost faith in the teaching authoritiy of the bishops, the whole house fell down -- it meant that the NT has no authority either. It was a very, VERY disturbing time of my life. When all the dust had settled, I found out that what I had left was the Hebrew scriptures (not necessarily inerrant) and the knowledge that the Jewish people are unique in history. Since I am of Jewish descent, it seemed perfectly natural to simply "return" to the faith of my people.
I was raised christian (fundamentalist) and was very devout even as an adult. When I was a young adult, I learned that the New Testament was a product of the Catholic bishops, and that really the only reason it had any authority was because the bishops had authority. So I expressed my christian walk as a Catholic. As I grew older, certain historical issues that had gotten under my skin simply began to fester. In particular, I am convinced that Christian antisemitism is the child of Replacement Theology (that G-d divorced Isael and the Church is now His bride.) That the church fostered this belief as a major part of its ecclesiology all the way up to Vatican 2 is evidence that the bishops can make theological mistakes that lead to great evil. Once I lost faith in the teaching authoritiy of the bishops, the whole house fell down -- it meant that the NT has no authority either. It was a very, VERY disturbing time of my life. When all the dust had settled, I found out that what I had left was the Hebrew scriptures (not necessarily inerrant) and the knowledge that the Jewish people are unique in history. Since I am of Jewish descent, it seemed perfectly natural to simply "return" to the faith of my people.
Oh.... let's NOT play the "my suffering is worse than yours" game. The truth is that there are those who have experienced excruciating, nightmarish times: some of them lose their faith, and others feel that it has enriched their faith. I have trained myself to think of suffering as an opportunity to change for the better.
I *am* of one of those Abrahamic faiths, and I want to say that you are very ignorant of Judaism. Judaism isn't interested in Orthodoxy (right belief) so much as Orthopraxy (right behavior). The objective is to be a better person, and create a better world. If you can do that without believing in G-d, MORE POWER TO YOU.
A Catholic preist once told me, "I much prefer the person who doesn't believe in G-d yet lives his life as though he did, to the person who professes they believe in G-d and acts like they don't." I think THAT is spot on.
It's when I'm going through a major depression that I can no longer sense G-d and tend to doubt His existence. But it became obvious over time that this doubt was a factor of my illness, so when it happens now, I pay it no attention.
Spailpin:
Your story was wonderful to read. It sounds like you started in a church that had one part covered, but was empty in othr ways. You looked to fill that hole, to find balance. In the end, you have fostered a greater wholeness in yourself, and you are able to see that churches are flawed institutions but its okay because they can still help you on your road. It is just lovely to read about that kind of growth.
Your story was wonderful to read. It sounds like you started in a church that had one part covered, but was empty in othr ways. You looked to fill that hole, to find balance. In the end, you have fostered a greater wholeness in yourself, and you are able to see that churches are flawed institutions but its okay because they can still help you on your road. It is just lovely to read about that kind of growth.
I don't think it's your fault. Some people just seem to be born without a radar for the divine. In the end, it's not about what you believe, but how you act.
Religion can only be pure when it's from God, not man. Unfortunately, most religions present God as a petty, rigid, ritual-obsessed, vindictive person, with all the faults and hubris of the small minds that dominate much of religion. The God I could believe in invented quantum physics to perpetually perplex us, brilliantly used evolution to unify biology yet diversify life, and gave us our exquisite brains so that we would embrace ambiguity, enjoy complexity, and create beauty. I guess there's still hope, but it does get depressing.
I don't think jesus ever intended to start a new religion. That was Paul's thing.
The Romans were crucifying anyone stirring the pot. Barrabas had been arrested and was awaiting crucifixion, and Jesus was crucified along with two other zealots (the word in greek is specific enough to mean theiving as a form of terrorism). In the end, Rome couldn't deal with jewish culture, and tried to obliterate it. Obviously Rome lost--today we Jews walk on the ruins of Rome. But Rome did give us a run for our money, specifically because it WAS willing to be ruthless.
Religion is man's interaction with the divine. There is no religion that is made only by mankind, and no religion that is from G-d alone. This doesn't mean all religions are equal.
This has been a really interesting thread, all five pages! But I need a break now.
shalom!!!!
This has been a really interesting thread, all five pages! But I need a break now.
shalom!!!!
Huh? Rome didnt try to obliterate Jewish culture, it just wanted control. The Romans often let the people they conquered continue to practice their own religions and cultures so long as they still payed homage to Rome. And Jews arent the only people who walk on the ruins of Rome, we all do. Dont make it sound like the Jews brought Rome down, they simple didn't die before Rome did. Also, Paul may have took the cult mainstream, but Christ definitely had an idea of making his own cult, which he did, he even told his disciples that he was the only way to god. Sounds pretty outside the cusp of what the jews were talking about at the time.
Christian Dogma was written by liars, the same as Jewish dogma... There is no difference, just different stories by different people.
You sound like you havent suffered very much to the point of being a broken person... but thats just my guess, I cant factually say thats true. You sound very fervent in your portrayal of your Judaism, wonderful... it also sounds like an emotional hangup which you let blind you to certain things. If Judaism isnt about orthodoxy, then you're obviously not an orthodox jew... duh? And yet plenty are, specifically the ones who rule israel Or the ones who used to bomb British hotels as terrorists to get what they wanted. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing
You may think I am ignorant, and yet you seem to be willfully ignorant because you have put faith into something new and shiny from something old and boring, a lot of people do this, I am reminded of the white yale students who converted to FalunGong because its way too cool to belong to an oppressed minority group when you come from a privileged upper class. THis could or could not describe you, just saying.
I personally find all Abrahamic religions bunk, the Jews based their religion on hating Babylon, the Christians on hating Rome, the Muslims on hating the Jews and Christians, its pathetic... if I was to choose a religion I think I could go for Norse mythology or Greek, at least their gods were awesome and they took them more as the stories they were and not literally like the Jews, Christians and Muslims who use their religions to murder innocent people.
If you arent pissed by now, let me know I can keep going.
Thanks for the head pat, and you wonder why some atheists are so vehemently annoyed by religion and people who who believe in ghost stories.
Religion is man's interaction with the divine. There is no religion that is made only by mankind, and no religion that is from G-d alone. This doesn't mean all religions are equal.
This has been a really interesting thread, all five pages! But I need a break now.
shalom!!!!
No, religion is basically a bunch of lies produced by very enterprising power lusters who sell bullshit to those who are afraid of the unknown.
Luckily those days are coming to an end the more evolved as a species we become and our science gets better.
I was raised in a mostly non-religious household, and what I remember of things that *might* have *maybe* been influenced by religion was all downhome Pagan-ey kind of stuff. (Popcorn on the trees in winter, we celebrated Christmas on the 21st, put string(adj.) figurines in the trees at Halloween, ate cornbread men in the Fall, decorated and hid eggs at Easter...)
I've actually gotten 'closer' to that kind of path, the older I've gotten. (I'm 21 now.) I keep an altar for myself now, etc etc.
I can't imagine having been one faith, and then moved to another. I imagine it must be traumatic.
Billy, I can see why you are so endearing. LOL
I do find it amazing and intriguing that you claim to be INFJ, yet missed the subtle "I've hurt so much that I can't talk about it directly" of my posts (I'm a classic intellectualizer). But then, I've only just met you and could be entirely wrong. This is especially true as INFJ's have incredibly complex personalities, tend to hide our fragile side, and it takes others a very long time to really get to know us (if ever). Let's make a bargain to take more time to get to know each other before we each jump to conclusions.
Oh, and I'm sorry for the patronizing comment. Upon reading it the day after I posted it, I can see how it comes across very condescending.
Shalom
I do find it amazing and intriguing that you claim to be INFJ, yet missed the subtle "I've hurt so much that I can't talk about it directly" of my posts (I'm a classic intellectualizer). But then, I've only just met you and could be entirely wrong. This is especially true as INFJ's have incredibly complex personalities, tend to hide our fragile side, and it takes others a very long time to really get to know us (if ever). Let's make a bargain to take more time to get to know each other before we each jump to conclusions.
Oh, and I'm sorry for the patronizing comment. Upon reading it the day after I posted it, I can see how it comes across very condescending.
Shalom
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Over the years, I have found myself integrating lots of thoughts, idea, and inspirations from a variety of sources. I think I did this because essentially I feel there is one Truth with many, many refractions and lots of diversity. Can one really expect less from the Divine Life? For me, a Catholic approach has allowed, propelled...and in some ways even demanded...an openness to this diversity and integration. That doesn't mean I swallow everything hook, line, and sinker....it just means using different perspectives to inform and cast new light upon the tradition I already function within. I feel it is okay to do this, while at the same time deferring to the essential roots of my faith...assuming I understand these in a more holistic fashion, paring down orthodoxy to it's core, essential root source.
A big part of this has involved a consideration of native and even pagan religious awarenesses. Sometimes I learn/observe from consistencies, sometimes I learn/observe from contrasts. At a minimum, this process (which is still ongoing) helps me to deconstruct the Christ story (a pivotal anchor point for me) a bit and see it through fresh eyes, perspectives closer to the origins, gaining a new fascination for His life and message, as well as those of his early followers. It also helps me to strip away some of the more Roman impositions as well as other historical overlays. Not that there is any scandal in these (most of them anyway), these just illustrate the flexibility and dynamism that can and does exist, qualities that I can (and do) bring forward to today in my own time, life, and choices.
This process, I feel, leaves one in a mode that is more integral rather than one that immediately discards anything outside one's own limited sphere. What is even bettter is to find that "one's own limited sphere" actually encourages and embraces integration of diversity and differences of experience. That is cool.
One also comes to respect the various facets and trajectories of each person's individual journey and that God's encounters with us come in all shapes and sizes at various times in our lives. It also makes me realize my complete inability to judge another's path. Yes, I could offer a perspective, but then that comes through my own prism of experience, doesn't it? Even here, we must allow room for the essential diversity on which all creation seems to be based upon.
A big part of this has involved a consideration of native and even pagan religious awarenesses. Sometimes I learn/observe from consistencies, sometimes I learn/observe from contrasts. At a minimum, this process (which is still ongoing) helps me to deconstruct the Christ story (a pivotal anchor point for me) a bit and see it through fresh eyes, perspectives closer to the origins, gaining a new fascination for His life and message, as well as those of his early followers. It also helps me to strip away some of the more Roman impositions as well as other historical overlays. Not that there is any scandal in these (most of them anyway), these just illustrate the flexibility and dynamism that can and does exist, qualities that I can (and do) bring forward to today in my own time, life, and choices.
This process, I feel, leaves one in a mode that is more integral rather than one that immediately discards anything outside one's own limited sphere. What is even bettter is to find that "one's own limited sphere" actually encourages and embraces integration of diversity and differences of experience. That is cool.
One also comes to respect the various facets and trajectories of each person's individual journey and that God's encounters with us come in all shapes and sizes at various times in our lives. It also makes me realize my complete inability to judge another's path. Yes, I could offer a perspective, but then that comes through my own prism of experience, doesn't it? Even here, we must allow room for the essential diversity on which all creation seems to be based upon.
Randomsomeone:
I hear ya! Religion is a lattice: by itself it is nothing but dead wood, BUT we plants grow well on it. I do NOT think all lattices are equally good (I'd hate to go back to tearing out still-beating hearts) but... generally speaking... they provide us with the structure and tools for upward growth. I've greatly enjoyed studying most of the world's religions. I have a special place in my heart for Taoism and Native American sprirituality. But I still know who I am at my core. There is a saying from the Talmud: Take the wisdom of the nations as your own wisdom, but do not take the Torah of the nations as your Torah.
I hear ya! Religion is a lattice: by itself it is nothing but dead wood, BUT we plants grow well on it. I do NOT think all lattices are equally good (I'd hate to go back to tearing out still-beating hearts) but... generally speaking... they provide us with the structure and tools for upward growth. I've greatly enjoyed studying most of the world's religions. I have a special place in my heart for Taoism and Native American sprirituality. But I still know who I am at my core. There is a saying from the Talmud: Take the wisdom of the nations as your own wisdom, but do not take the Torah of the nations as your Torah.
