INFJs, Changing or Losing Religious Faith

[VH]

The carpenter could also show pictures he took of the house in progress, as well as receipts for the materials used, and most carpenters sign their work all over the place in hidden places...

God has signed his work all over the place... from the pictures of galaxies going on further than our best technology can see to the most minute particles our technology can detect. Proof of intelligent design is being 'discovered' by science constantly... proof of how God put all of this together.

I just want the carpenter to prove he exists, he can do that by ya know... existing.

I think it is more the case that you want God to prove he exists in a way that you will accept, and that's a fair thing to ask. Even Paul stated that we should ask God to prove himself to us. To those of us who believe, we have had it proven to us in ways we will accept. Each of us has had proof that is unique to ourselves. If you are honestly open to the possibility, God will prove his existence and himself to you - eventually. If you are not, then he won't bother you on your journey through this life as you exert your free will. Either of these are perfectly fair, and I support you in whatever choice you make on that front.

 

[Billy]

God has signed his work all over the place... from the pictures of galaxies going on further than our best technology can see to the most minute particles our technology can detect. Proof of intelligent design is being 'discovered' by science constantly... proof of how God put all of this together.



I think it is more the case that you want God to prove he exists in a way that you will accept, and that's a fair thing to ask. Even Paul stated that we should do ask God to prove himself to us. To those of us who believe, we have had it proven to us in ways we will accept. Each of us has had proof that is unique to ourselves. If you are honestly open to the possibility, God will prove his existence and himself to you - eventually. If you are not, then he won't bother you on your journey through this life as you exert your free will. Either of these are perfectly fair, and I support you in whatever choice you make on that front.

People always say that, I see no signatures. In fact maybe it wasn't god who arranged the universe, I say it was Tosh.O, and I can use the same reasoning you do to "prove" he did. I am a skeptic, and skeptics want to be proven wrong, I am not asking for mystical feelings to awaken, I am asking for ya know just real quantifiable proof.

Proof of intelligent design has never been found, and all the "proof" that people put forward is usually based in GIGANTIC leaps of logic that are being constantly debunked by science.

 

[Barnabas]

Typical Christian circular argument.

Typical Billy not being an INFJ

 

[Billy]

Typical Billy not being an INFJ

Now you are hurting my feelings, god is ashamed of you, those were probably his omnipresent thoughts ("shame for Barnabas") as they strung him up like a side of veal to cure in the sun.

 

[Barnabas]

Now you are hurting my feelings, god is ashamed of you, those were probably his omnipresent thoughts ("shame for Barnabas") as they strung him up like a side of veal to cure in the sun.

Listen it's not my fault the truth hurts Billy, just because you never exhibited any use of Fe or Ni doesn't mean you should be mad at me. Your life up until now has been a lie, but now you have been set free t know that you can be anything you want to be, except an INFJ because you just to aggressive.

 

[Billy]

Listen it's not my fault the truth hurts Billy, just because you never exhibited any use of Fe or Ni doesn't mean you should be mad at me. Your life up until now has been a lie, but now you have been set free t know that you can be anything you want to be, except an INFJ because you just to aggressive.

What a funny story... and some people thought your hero Jesus was overly aggressive, I mean after all in the story books he was pretty aggressive, a rabble rouser, anti government, anti established religion, told people "how it was" and he was one of the most famous INFJs ever... AND a fellow carpenter to boot!

Look I know you're just getting nasty now because you believe in adult version fairy tales and it hurts when your "truth" is challenged... but you really should try to just answer the question before without resorting to getting personal and red herring tactics. Its boring. "Just like those miserable Psalms, they're Sooooo depressing now KNOCK IT OFF"...yes that was a monty python quote. BEOTCH! I got it like that! HAIL SATAN... oh Rosemary.

 

[Barnabas]

What a funny story... and some people thought your hero Jesus was overly aggressive, I mean after all in the story books he was pretty aggressive, a rabble rouser, anti government, anti established religion, told people "how it was" and he was one of the most famous INFJs ever... AND a fellow carpenter to boot!

Look I know you're just getting nasty now because you believe in adult version fairy tales and it hurts when your "truth" is challenged... but you really should try to just answer the question before without resorting to getting personal and red herring tactics. Its boring. "Just like those miserable Psalms, they're Sooooo depressing now KNOCK IT OFF"...yes that was a monty python quote. BEOTCH! I got it like that! HAIL SATAN... oh Rosemary.

Listen I know your very antsy about people challenging your MBTI type and all but really, is using ad homs and quoting a movie a good way to deal with that problem.

 

[Billy]

Listen I know your very antsy about people challenging your MBTI type and all but really, is using ad homs and quoting a movie a good way to deal with that problem.

Probably not, but I make due, now, let us return to the original topic which you seem to want to avoid.

1. Why shouldnt god prove its existence?
2. If it should or did as implied, why doesnt it use real proof instead of conjecture?

 

[AUM]

I was raised catholic. I found religion boring and could really care less about it. So I became a mixture of agnostic, atheist and just plain apatheist.

 

[Barnabas]

Probably not, but I make due, now, let us return to the original topic which you seem to want to avoid.

1. Why shouldnt god prove its existence?
2. If it should or did as implied, why doesnt it use real proof instead of conjecture?

1. It's not that he should or shouldn't prove his existence so much as how ridiculous the question is. Think back think the people who were calling for the President's birth certificate, there was a small loud group of people led who were asking for something that the rest of the country saw a ridiculous. He only showed it then what can be prescribed as ridiculousness incarnate got on screen and made even more noise about it and low and behold the small loud group had been parading around for nothing instead helping straightening out the country.

Now compare this to God, you have a small vocal minority of people calling out to God to prove that he exists, your asking some one to prove their own existence. Can you imagine what that would sound like if you were God. More so if you had done it in the past and it didn't make difference. So why even acknowledge it? Knowing they won't change.

2. what would you accept as "real proof"? I'll assume parting oceans, destroying cities, and walking on water aren't enough right? so what do you want?

 

[Billy]

1. It's not that he should or shouldn't prove his existence so much as how ridiculous the question is. Think back think the people who were calling for the President's birth certificate, there was a small loud group of people led who were asking for something that the rest of the country saw a ridiculous. He only showed it then what can be prescribed as ridiculousness incarnate got on screen and made even more noise about it and low and behold the small loud group had been parading around for nothing instead helping straightening out the country.

And yet he did show the certificate and it did kind of quash the question altogether, had he just showed it from the beginning he would have stopped the out of control spiral of lunacy. Bad example.

Now compare this to God, you have a small vocal minority of people calling out to God to prove that he exists, your asking some one to prove their own existence. Can you imagine what that would sound like if you were God. More so if you had done it in the past and it didn't make difference. So why even acknowledge it? Knowing they won't change.

No, what you have is a super rich and powerful industry of people and ideas claiming that god exists and using it as a reason to murder and rob wealth from people and as a reaction a group of rapidly growing logics who demand proof of said super being. I can prove my existence and *IF* god wanted me to love it, he would need to prove he existed, not doing so, then saying believing without understanding or knowing and calling it faith is a joke, if god existed it would know that thats not the way to reach people who are too smart to fall for such vagaries, and IF god loved us as its claimed it does, then it wouldn't feel prideful (a human emotion) about showing us its face so we can all get that issue behind us and grow together.

2. what would you accept as "real proof"? I'll assume parting oceans, destroying cities, and walking on water aren't enough right? so what do you want?

Well pated oceans, destroyed cities and water walking never happened, there is no evidence for any of it. In fact historically speaking Moses didn't exist, and the Jews were never held captive by the egyptians, the babylonians maybe, and even then there was no moses. And we already know that the tomes talking about miracles are nothing more then conjecture written centuries after the fact when his cult had already grown into the worlds more powerful religion looking to ensnare new people. So yes, that would be insufficient, in fact anything in the bible or christian mythos would be insufficient you will need a secular and science based proof in order for those claims to hold up. So go for it, and let me see what you god. Seduce me with your wares.

 

[VH]

I'm not exactly sure why people argue when they're aware that neither party has any intention of changing their mind.

 

[Nixie]

But collegial debate is good stuffs!!!!!!!! (monkey for emphasis!)
No need to get all emotional. If we can't learn to speak with each other without insisting that we all agree then IMO, we are doomed to failure as a society.

 

[AUM]

But collegial debate is good stuffs!!!!!!!! (monkey for emphasis!)
No need to get all emotional. If we can't learn to speak with each other without insisting that we all agree then IMO, we are doomed to failure as a society.

It's because people no longer talk to each other. We talk AT each other. Big difference.

 

[Nixie]

It's because people no longer talk to each other. We talk AT each other. Big difference.

I'm sorry, did you say something?? I wasn't paying any attention....

Back to God Proving please.....

You know, my own beliefs came about because I had to question, question, question and then decide to just take that leap that I believed in higher powers--yea....POWERS...as in male and female.

Life is entirely subjective. We create our own lives, spin our own stories, weave our own lies. There is no true answer, only your own. In the end, you have to be responsible for the live you live and the things you do. I can only carry my own honor.

 

[the]

Times like these I know I learned almost all I am gonna learn about religion from internet forums.

 

[Sensiko]

Jesus was Jewish. Christianity is a Jewish cult IMO.

OMG Sonya, LOL!

That was so my dad's argument. The one time my mom dragged my dad to church he kept leaning over to the guy next to him to say things like, "Do you know you're praying to a Jew?" or "Do you know why you're singing a Jewish song?"

(BTW I'm not at all insinuating what you wrote was anti-semitic; my father was, but that's neither here nor there)

 

[Sensiko]

1. Why shouldnt god prove its existence?
2. If it should or did as implied, why doesnt it use real proof instead of conjecture?

If God unmistakeably floated down from the heavens, right up to you in a magical explosion of rainbows and glitter surrounded by angels with golden harps, tapped you on the nose and said, "Billy, to prove I am real I will turn this here rock into falcon right in front of your very eyes and simultaneously give you an orgasm!" and did so, but only you were there to witness this event, would you then believe in the existence of God? Would seeing and experiencing something with your own eyes be enough scientific proof for you? Or would it have to be a collective decision among the scientific community? Just curious...

Have you/would you ever be open to sincerely asking God to prove his existence to you? Sincerity is easy to fake, it has to come from the right place without prejudice. We tend to lose our preconceptions when we hit rock bottom and there is nothing/no one who can help and I hope that you're never in that type of situation but I propose an experiment... Should you find yourself in a dire situation without any forseeable solution, try asking God to acknowledge you.

I'm not hatin' on you --all the more power to you for standing up for what you believe in and go on praising Satan if it makes you feel goodeace:

 

[randomsomeone]

I managed to grow and evolve within my own faith community, which is great since I now know it so well, but if I had to start over from scratch I'd be in big trouble. Religious culture seems such a complicated thing to figure out these days, nevermind the culture here in the "bible belt."

For this same reason, even though I find my own community to be really awesome, creative, and diverse, I'm honestly not sure I would recommend someone join it unless they really felt personally drawn to do so. I mean, my experiences, the things that make the whole thing click for me, are just so personal and unique....how can I expect someone to "get it" unless they experience this for themselves in their own way. I don't even try. Rather, I prefer to just travel alongside in whatever process of dicovery is at work, whether it is in my community or not. There is an essential diversity that necessarily exists due to the gift of personal dignity that God imparts to each of us. Respecting this is essential, and the truth within each person is what is most important.

 

[Billy]

If God unmistakeably floated down from the heavens, right up to you in a magical explosion of rainbows and glitter surrounded by angels with golden harps, tapped you on the nose and said, "Billy, to prove I am real I will turn this here rock into falcon right in front of your very eyes and simultaneously give you an orgasm!" and did so, but only you were there to witness this event, would you then believe in the existence of God? Would seeing and experiencing something with your own eyes be enough scientific proof for you? Or would it have to be a collective decision among the scientific community? Just curious...

I think if it only appeared to me I would question my own sanity. If god was to reveal itself it would have to be to everybody. Anyone crazy can "see and hear" god.

Have you/would you ever be open to sincerely asking God to prove his existence to you? Sincerity is easy to fake, it has to come from the right place without prejudice. We tend to lose our preconceptions when we hit rock bottom and there is nothing/no one who can help and I hope that you're never in that type of situation but I propose an experiment... Should you find yourself in a dire situation without any forseeable solution, try asking God to acknowledge you.

I did and have, 100s of time when my life was in danger, when I was being molested, when every horrible thing that should never happen to a person did happen to me. He never answered. Apparently he only comes to those who dont need him, in that case, he can go fuck himself, what a useless deity. So when you speak of "rock bottom" well, been there worse than some have seen but not as bad as others I admit... and the only source of strength I found was later after I had been hurt and healed and learned to cope, on my own. At no time did any god assist, I turned in my most hopeless hours to a god that quite simply wasn't there or didn't care. Please dont take this as "a wounded lost sheep who is mad at god for abandoning it when it needed him most" That may have made me ask the questions, but it wasn't the reason I disbelieved.