INFJ, The Manipulator?

I am never told this by others because people do not see me do this, ever. I don't know why but they don't. I have to be the one who tells them.

I am the exact same way though. The thing is though I never do this with malitious intent or to just get a rise out of people. It is just another tool in my aresonol to learn more about people and dig deeper.

 

There is a difference between being an effective communicator and a manipulator. Some people can be both.

Manipulation is getting people to act without their full consent. This is done by withholding information, lying, attacking vulnerabilities, using flattery, using cohesion or threat, emotional blackmail, etc. I can usually figure out when someone is doing this, but it goes against my grain to do it.

 

Scary. lol

But that's the way it is when you're good at something, you end up using it on your favour without perceiving it, you use the tools you have. The problem is what Julia said.

Pesonally, I find people who have good interpersonal skills (like ESFP's, for example) very scary. I don't really like it and I end up thinking this kind of people are just gathering information and will use it manipulate me... Another thing I perceive F's do a lot, is to say/do things just to see what's your reaction and kind of test you. I hate it and I feel 'betrayed' and when I perceive it, it's over for me.

You F's take a good advantage on it, and whether the intention is good or not, when you do it you are being manipulative. I think a lot of it comes from that 'mania' you F's have to hide things, many F's I know often don't say what they think, they prefer to silence, they're never direct when they want to ask something, for whatever reasons, and then they have to use this skills to get what they want from people. I don't think it's fair, I always feel like they're not being true, even though sometimes I see they don't mean anything bad, feels like they're being false and manipulative.

 

I am capable of doing this kind of thing, in a truly manipulative sense, as Julia said. I do it on occasion, but usually it rubs me the wrong way. It just feels too dishonest and, well, manipulative. If I do decide to manipulate a situation, I usually do it when the outcome is going to benefit other people as well as myself.

ETA: After reading Zero Angel's post below, I'd just like to clarify that when I said I can do this "in a truly manipulative sense, as Julia said," I meant more the getting someone to "act without their full consent," or as ZA put it, getting someone "to do something that they would not otherwise do of their own volition." I don't use the tactics Julia mentioned, I just see how people react in certain ways to certain things, and exploit that knowledge to "herd" them into the outcome I'm looking for.

 

I disagree. To me, manipulating someone is getting them to do something that they would not otherwise do of their own volition. There are many subtle ways to get someone to do what you want them to do, you just have to know what is important to them and what affects them.

All types of manipulation appeal to or otherwise affect emotions. The tactics you list are the more devious and overt ways of manipulating someones emotions in order to get them to do what you want -- they are effective in that they are powerful -- but people who constantly manipulate others in this way ultimately lose them because of the large amount of negative emotional reactions they evoke. There are more subtle ways of getting someone to do what you want, and strangely enough you see this kind of thing happen ALL the time. Just look read any type of book which involves relating to people such as 'how to win friends and influence people' or go to a Dale Carnegie course or read any book about a related subject -- all of these teach you how to appeal to another person emotional side. Almost everyone manipulates everyone else in some small way or another.

 

I think it's a skill that we all have (as INFJ's) and that we all use when we really need it, sometimes willingly and sometimes without even noticing.

As some have said before me, when I do this, I don't do it for my own benefit, but for the 'greater good' - if you want to see it like that. Whenever I see something out of place, someone being utterly wrong about something or a sittuation taking a wrong turn, this instinct activates naturally in me. I don't sit and think "right, time to start manipulating", but rather my mind see's those things that other people don't and in its willingness to help it tries to channel the 'wrongness' into 'rightness'.

The thing is that I don't have a very 'strong' presence. As neither do most INFJ's, I assume. We don't have it because we simply can't or don't want to.
I'm a moderate introvert who has a hard time speaking loudly and being assertive beyond a point. When I'm in University, with my colleagues, I normally find myself in the sideline of a group, talking about a team project or theory point which I have a strong opinion of. My colleagues will usually go on about it based on their own opinions, shouting over each other to make the strongest point, while I sit there, unable to do this. When they reach a conclusion that's wrong or shows to be inneficient, I'll try having a say, but often they're so convinced that they're right, and that the 'quiet girl who spends more time in limbo than on earth' can't possibly understand what they're talking about, that they totally skip what I said. This is, obviously, very frustrating and the reason I hate team work.

What happens then is that the part of me that knows they're utterly wrong about something, and that we're all going to fall through their stupid mistake of refusing to acknowledge what I said, kicks in with its tools. I don't have a strong presence, but I do have a very strong sense of perfection for things; I know I can do it and I can do it right. So, without even realizing, my mind works it out so that subtly, quietly, I eventually correct these attitudes and mistakes that everyone refused to realize in the first place.

And the truth is that when it comes down to it, and without praising myself here, things do come out right. I take no credit (because hilariously enough, people think they came up with the good ideas after all xD) and the project comes out sleek and smooth.

So in all, what I mean to say is that this so called 'manipulation' isn't to be followed literally as such. We don't 'manipulate' - we just try to help when the cause is right and people have made it wrong. We lack in many things, like the ability to express ourselves, to perhaps be strongly assertive, etc, so we have to make up somehow by using the greatest thing we have, which is our intuition and our need to help people and the better cause with it.

I've said.

(Gods, my posts keep getting longer and longer...)

 

Hmm, I'm quite the opposite. Well, I'm rather quiet, but in team work I usually get my will. If I have a good idea, I see to it that it comes through, and that I get credit for it.

I do manipulate to some extent to get my ideas through, usually by putting doubt in the others team members about their ideas, but oh well.

 

I wouldn't say this is manipulation. It's influencing. You're simply using your strengths to guide people in a certain direction, which is presumably positive, if you're being to to your nature.

Manipulation, to my mind would bewhen people use forms of hypnosis, such as NLP, to prey on fears and weaknesses they perceive in others in order to win a situation for themselves.

 

I'm more inclined to step back and notice the connections between people and file it away for future reference. I tend to see these connections filmicly, so basically I'm plotting to use the absurdities unfolding before me for some screenplay or film or something. I'm not one to interject for the purpose of manipulating someone to get what I want. I figure if the person doesn't want to give me what I want, so be it.

Though, ESFJs & ESFPs seem more manipulative to me, through phishing, guilt-tripping, passive-aggression, and sugary-sweetness (as the knife plunges into your back.)

 

I agree. I find these types to be quite manipulative in that way.

 

Hmm.

I've been called bossy before, but not manipulative. I think the term "manipulation" is the sticking point as others have said, since the word itself has negative connotations. I would say that INFJs are masters at looking at the whole picture and determining the best answer to satisfy the big picture question while caring about everyone's greater good, but that's all. I can't see myself using this for evil intent. An INTJ might see the whole picture and make a decision without caring (i.e., the best answer and best result, damn the consequences), but I'd hate to do it as an INFJ because I'd have to sacrifice my principles; I'd have to stop caring about others and how others were feeling.

People with strong strategic minds can manipulate behind the scenes without others knowing about it (NT trait). Others can try and sell you something and explain why something is a great deal, and try to use your circumstances against you. But can an NF truly be called manipulative? That's a good question. I think it'd have to be an unhealthy INFJ, or someone who misunderstands the intent of the INFJ.

 

We are councilors after all we do see patterns in people and life. I think we are just more aware and we act more aware at times. We can see things before they happen at times. I can use my influence at times to get what I want or I can use it to help others get where they are going. It's a gift use it responsibly and no one will think you have bad intentions.

 

This may be true. Enneagramically speaking, 4s(INFJ/INFPs) become more like 2s(ESFJ/ESFPs) when unhealthy. There have been times I've been whiny and depressed causing others to give me what I wanted. Although, I don't think I consciously manipulated them at the time. But they might have felt that way.

 

this is one of things i realised about myself a long time ago. I can get anyone to do almost anything I want though I usually dont do that. My friends have seen that too. They know me to be able to get people to talk even though they do not wish to. I just got a friend to show me her newly cut hair that she didnt want anyone to see

but I dont use it to get people to buy me stuff or give me money or any of this sort of thing. My honour wouldnt allow me to do so anyway. I probably will die if I did such a thing without good reason to do so.

BUT. the only time I cant seem to use this skill to get to know people better or to help them sort out their issues by acknowledging their problem or this sort of thing is when the other party is the person i like at that point in time.

very very annoying at that time. But other than the person I seem to be able to use it on whoever else. Especially since I've started studying psychology I realised that I could actually really get people to do things they would not do otherwise :/

with great power comes great responsibility i suppose

 

Yeah. I have some trauma with them and also with ISFx and it makes me step back with most F's because of some similarities that trigger my mind to what this types tend to do, specially concerning the 'sugary-sweetness (as the knife plunges into your back.)', though I know (or want to believe so) not all F's are like this.

 

i have manipulated before