How many more children need to die before the USA can have gun control?
- Thread starter Faye
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We live in a country that forces its serfs to subsidize poison food and the health care of those who eat it, which has endless laws against victimless crimes which are enforced by often very criminal police. This country has a rich history of killing, maiming, torturing and destroying the lives of foreigners to benefit central banks, big oil and the military industrial complex. Of being completely cluelessly tyrannical without pause and mistaking that for virtue. More recently covering up the spreading of a bio weapon virus. Then we arrive at this distractionary idea during a time of intentional global economic collapse and war that the right tool for a task is inappropriate for that task and should be restricted under threat of death by that massively criminal government. It's rather ridiculous and certainly carries a stench of white collar ivory tower inexperience and brain washing, without a clue of the factors of operant conditioning and psychotropic drugs that universally go into such incidents.
Such calls for gun control are cowardly and craving of violence. If you are anti gun and don't want to arm yourself to disarm others, you then want other violent people to oppress or kill peaceful people to save yourself the risks. Too bad so many are so well armed, and too bad new tech such as the fgc9 exists to enable even people lacking machine tools to build combat ready guns if they can't buy them. The fascist fantasy is as misguided as it is dead on arrival.
Such calls for gun control are cowardly and craving of violence. If you are anti gun and don't want to arm yourself to disarm others, you then want other violent people to oppress or kill peaceful people to save yourself the risks. Too bad so many are so well armed, and too bad new tech such as the fgc9 exists to enable even people lacking machine tools to build combat ready guns if they can't buy them. The fascist fantasy is as misguided as it is dead on arrival.
David Nelson
Permanent Fixture
I disagree with you here. I said it’s probably the greatest factor. There will probably always be a very small minority who commit heinous crimes. But the more dysfunctional and divided a community, the more likely it is to happen. I’m not saying it’s the only reason.
Your comparison with for eg. when racists making a point when a black persona commits a crime is not comparable because they are conflating 2 things (crime plus race) in a specific instance, which is a logical fallacy since they have no idea if the person being black has anything to do with their crime. They are assuming a connection with no evidence.
My point is that the general effects of poverty and gross inequality affect everyone since on an aggregate level this makes crime in general more likely.
This is an important distinction since these kinds of logic get confused in a lot of political discussions and thinking. I wasn’t saying the shooter’s behaviour was mainly or purely due to poverty. If I had, your point would have been valid. I was saying these kinds of things are almost certainly linked to poverty. That is not controversial at all and no doubt backed by evidence.
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David Nelson
Permanent Fixture
The main root problem of western societies increasing dysfunctional is imo the fact that the rich have created a society where they have virtual full spectrum dominance over the political, economic and cultural spheres. There is mostly only an illusion of freedom and democracy. Society is rigged so that there is no effective countervailing power. Democratic pluralism has mostly been replaced with technocratic neoliberalism which by its nature is centralised power vis technocrats. The credentialed professional class make most of the decisions and have most of the power, and naturally their decisions are in their own favour. This has always been the case to some degree but now they mostly ignore ordinary people unless it’s time to con them into voting for them (but only by offering 2 shades of political crap to choose from). When working people are encouraged to vote by someone seeming to listen to them and offer solutions, it’s called populism. How dare the people think they can really have a say in how their society works! I mean it’s them that keeps it going after all!
We have a slave economy, masters and servants, all under the illusion of meritocracy. It’s like the old Roman Empire and slowly crumbling. There’s nothing inevitable about our societies. We just need to recognise the need to change things via mass protests.
We have a slave economy, masters and servants, all under the illusion of meritocracy. It’s like the old Roman Empire and slowly crumbling. There’s nothing inevitable about our societies. We just need to recognise the need to change things via mass protests.
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Those who want gun control have dark motives regarding the freedom and dignity of others sometimes resulting in genocide.
GUNS AND CONTROL
Turkey established gun control in 1911. Soon after, 1.5 million Armenians unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
The Soviet Union established gun control in 1929. Soon after, about 20 million dissidents unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
China established gun control in 1935. Soon after, 20 million political dissidents unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
Germany established gun control in 1938. Soon after, an estimated 13 million who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
Cambodia established gun control in 1956. Soon after, one million people unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
Guatemala established gun control in 1964. Soon after, 100,000 Mayan Indians unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
Uganda established gun control in 1970. Soon after, 300,000 Christians unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
Australia established gun control in 1996. Right now, Australian citizens are being brutalized and terrorized by their tyrannical government.
Venezuela established Desarma La Violencia to disarm citizens in 2010. Once one of the richest countries in Latin America, Venezuela is currently free falling into violent unrest and extreme poverty.
New Zealand expanded gun control in 2019. Right now, New Zealand citizens are being brutalized and terrorized by their tyrannical government.
Canada expanded gun control in 2020. Right now, Canadian citizens are being brutalized and terrorized by their tyrannical government.
David Nelson
Permanent Fixture
I think it’s deep in the US psyche that guns are primarily a personal right of self protection, particularly against a tyrannical government. All the examples of gun control leading to state murder are in countries with despotic or tyrannical governments. The U.K. and most EU counties haven’t had guns widely through their societies yet have not had state mass murder (with exception of Germany).
I practice and suggest skepticism, but when I tried past life regression hypnosis, which I'm told is abnormally easy for us infj's, I saw something I didn't know existed, the Franko Hova war. I saw myself dying fighting French oppressors in a war almost completely unknown to English speakers. It sure didn't look to me in that hypnosis session like France was an exception to state sanctioned mass murder. There are probably a whole bunch of people in former British colonies who would also have similar things to say. Being a different color or religion in a different country doesn't alter victim status.
Authoritarian collectivism is defined by violence and death. It is what it is.
Authoritarian collectivism is defined by violence and death. It is what it is.
David Nelson
Permanent Fixture
I meant government against the people in the last 100 years. Foreign oppression etc. is a completely different thing again. Guns at home won’t affect that lol. Talk about moving the goalposts!
David Nelson
Permanent Fixture
In a functioning democracy, there should be no need to fear the government. Clearly there are major problems with our governments in the West, but the reality is that Governments should really be more scared of the people. I don't mean just in hypothetical terms but in real terms. For example, before US entered WW2, there was a plan to overthrow the US govt. by Nazi-sympathisers. It was only prevented by asking former Gen. Smedley D. Butler, the anti-war author, that it lost momentum. So the argument that the people need guns to protect them from the govt in US is really weak. I suspect it is more the rich protecting themselves from the poor.
I come from the mysterious part of the world outside of america, where society has evolved past the point where people resolve their mental health issues with armed combat.
I wonder what is a realistic vision of America's future? How about helmets and bullet proof vests to be worn in class at all times. Perhaps a couple of light machine guns mounted to the roof of your armoured 4x4, just for good measure. Armed sentry drones equipped with automatic mental illness detectors and a warning alarm alerting others within a mile radius that a depressed person has been sighted in the vicinity.
What a joke.
I wonder what is a realistic vision of America's future? How about helmets and bullet proof vests to be worn in class at all times. Perhaps a couple of light machine guns mounted to the roof of your armoured 4x4, just for good measure. Armed sentry drones equipped with automatic mental illness detectors and a warning alarm alerting others within a mile radius that a depressed person has been sighted in the vicinity.
What a joke.
David Nelson
Permanent Fixture
Haha sounds like a real dystopia. The West is moving increasingly towards a set of banana republics with wealthy, gated communities with angry mobs at their gates. It is a real joke. A tool commonly used to resist change is to demonise the poor. Make out they deserve their lot. That they are inherently inferior and evil. Yes, that should do it. Trouble is, even most of the rich suffer when a society is so polarized. It's hard to get to the top of Maslow's hierarchy as a rich person in such a society, but let's face it, many of those who get rich are probably not even capable of getting halfway up lol, because they are souless, cold and greedy.
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This isn't about gun control or mental health. This is the entire system and culture collapsing on itself.
We need to make changes from the roots up. Guns and mental health are scapegoats for the reflection in the mirror.
Our culture and government are a recipe for disaster.
Regarding guns: It is easy to get guns illegally and to 3D print parts for guns. If guns were illegal, people would just use a different weapon because the problem is much bigger than guns. Gun fetish culture certainly contributes, though. Subcultures that make heroes out of the murderers and other antiheroes also contribute.
Even with outlawing AR-15s, there are so many other guns that don't get the same hype. The main reason these mass murderers usually use AR-15s is because AR-15s are well advertised and fetishized. The more the Dems freak out over AR-15s, the more gun fetishists adore them and make a big deal over them and the media hypes it up every time someone uses one in a crime. Advertising! It's a symbol of mass shooter culture. Take it away, and they'll find another weapon and symbol. It will solve nothing. The Dems will pat themselves on the back for making change without touching the root of the problem and the Senate will go back to their circus of pretending to disdain each other while they all get paid and continue to keep the serfs down. It will be as useful as thoughts and prayers.
We could argue all day about how to change the culture and we won't agree because we are growing more and more polarized (which is part of the problem). People see no way out. No future, no hope.
We need to make changes from the roots up. Guns and mental health are scapegoats for the reflection in the mirror.
Our culture and government are a recipe for disaster.
Regarding guns: It is easy to get guns illegally and to 3D print parts for guns. If guns were illegal, people would just use a different weapon because the problem is much bigger than guns. Gun fetish culture certainly contributes, though. Subcultures that make heroes out of the murderers and other antiheroes also contribute.
Even with outlawing AR-15s, there are so many other guns that don't get the same hype. The main reason these mass murderers usually use AR-15s is because AR-15s are well advertised and fetishized. The more the Dems freak out over AR-15s, the more gun fetishists adore them and make a big deal over them and the media hypes it up every time someone uses one in a crime. Advertising! It's a symbol of mass shooter culture. Take it away, and they'll find another weapon and symbol. It will solve nothing. The Dems will pat themselves on the back for making change without touching the root of the problem and the Senate will go back to their circus of pretending to disdain each other while they all get paid and continue to keep the serfs down. It will be as useful as thoughts and prayers.
We could argue all day about how to change the culture and we won't agree because we are growing more and more polarized (which is part of the problem). People see no way out. No future, no hope.
David Nelson
Permanent Fixture
I agree. The system is unable to change for the better from within. It is too corrupt and too ruled by big business, which has invaded almost every area of our lives and country. We are on the road to hell. The vicious circle needs to be broken. A return to a proper democracy would be a radical start. 2-party system is broken as in U.K.. both sides represent big business and the rich over hard working people.
I think it's important to keep the issues apart because they are not related in such a way as to be only solvable together.
As far as I understand it, most of the massacres are carried out by disaffected and alienated youths or young men, acting alone. They are almost certainly mentally disturbed, if not ill, and there will be many factors that have got them this way - I'm very much with @slant on this that a practical way forward is to identify them in advance and nip the problem in the bud. That takes resources and expertise - it sounds like some States are willing to do this and others aren't. I doubt that it's all that difficult because most of these guys don't seem to be all that clever - a teenage lad is pretty transparent. The islamicist terrorists who have carried out atrocities in the UK seem to have a similar sort of profile - angry and alienated young men with a degree of mental instability, but they can be a bit harder to find ahead of the game. It's a bitter pill to swallow, but most of these guys will be victims of some sort, driven to extremes by goodness knows what demons.
Perhaps some of the problem is caused by systemic dysfunctionality in government, but I think it's misleading to project all the faults of society onto this possible problem. The solution has to lie also with people individually or in local organisations taking responsibility rather than putting it all on 'Them', the oppressors. I'm not saying there isn't truth in it, but there are other deeply rooted problems too such as (for example) the effect of family break-ups on children, the lack of stable father role models for many youngsters, bullying, and social isolation. This is a social problem, not just one of government, and there will be others too, such as the impact of the media and social networking. Of course many people don't like looking at their own individual behaviour and thinking about it's impact on their immediate family and on society as a whole - but, far more powerfully than our votes, our individual attitudes and behaviours add up into those of the whole society around us. We end up with the society that we invent through our own individual attitudes and contributions - and we inevitably end up with governments that reflect this grass roots culture regardless of the way they come into power.
I've reflected on it, and I don't think I have anything useful to say on whether or not you should ban personal ownership of firearms in the USA. I can't see that gun ownership serves the purpose of guaranteeing freedom - personally I'd have been scared silly as a kid if my school had had to be controlled by armed guards and I would have felt very unfree indeed. But maybe that's just me, living in a very different sort of society. But as others have said, the problem wouldn't go away if you banned them. There are just too many already out there, and people who feel strongly about it would get access to them come what may.
As far as I understand it, most of the massacres are carried out by disaffected and alienated youths or young men, acting alone. They are almost certainly mentally disturbed, if not ill, and there will be many factors that have got them this way - I'm very much with @slant on this that a practical way forward is to identify them in advance and nip the problem in the bud. That takes resources and expertise - it sounds like some States are willing to do this and others aren't. I doubt that it's all that difficult because most of these guys don't seem to be all that clever - a teenage lad is pretty transparent. The islamicist terrorists who have carried out atrocities in the UK seem to have a similar sort of profile - angry and alienated young men with a degree of mental instability, but they can be a bit harder to find ahead of the game. It's a bitter pill to swallow, but most of these guys will be victims of some sort, driven to extremes by goodness knows what demons.
Perhaps some of the problem is caused by systemic dysfunctionality in government, but I think it's misleading to project all the faults of society onto this possible problem. The solution has to lie also with people individually or in local organisations taking responsibility rather than putting it all on 'Them', the oppressors. I'm not saying there isn't truth in it, but there are other deeply rooted problems too such as (for example) the effect of family break-ups on children, the lack of stable father role models for many youngsters, bullying, and social isolation. This is a social problem, not just one of government, and there will be others too, such as the impact of the media and social networking. Of course many people don't like looking at their own individual behaviour and thinking about it's impact on their immediate family and on society as a whole - but, far more powerfully than our votes, our individual attitudes and behaviours add up into those of the whole society around us. We end up with the society that we invent through our own individual attitudes and contributions - and we inevitably end up with governments that reflect this grass roots culture regardless of the way they come into power.
I've reflected on it, and I don't think I have anything useful to say on whether or not you should ban personal ownership of firearms in the USA. I can't see that gun ownership serves the purpose of guaranteeing freedom - personally I'd have been scared silly as a kid if my school had had to be controlled by armed guards and I would have felt very unfree indeed. But maybe that's just me, living in a very different sort of society. But as others have said, the problem wouldn't go away if you banned them. There are just too many already out there, and people who feel strongly about it would get access to them come what may.
I do think there is a correlation with bad economic times and increased crime. As we go into a recession this won't be the last of stranger mass murder scenarios we see in general.
Not to keep bringing up my state again but economically we aren't suffering from as much inflation as the rest of the country, I've been trying to figure out why but I don't really know. We are still seeing an increase in crime but as a heavily militarized police state we do crack down on crime pretty aggressively.
So for those pointing to the economy I would say yes, the stress caused by economic problems like losing your job, not having enough money, etc. Can cause increases in crime and violence. I think it's necessary at this point to correct an overstimulated economy so we will just have to try to survive the increased crime until the economy gets back to growth again.
Not to keep bringing up my state again but economically we aren't suffering from as much inflation as the rest of the country, I've been trying to figure out why but I don't really know. We are still seeing an increase in crime but as a heavily militarized police state we do crack down on crime pretty aggressively.
So for those pointing to the economy I would say yes, the stress caused by economic problems like losing your job, not having enough money, etc. Can cause increases in crime and violence. I think it's necessary at this point to correct an overstimulated economy so we will just have to try to survive the increased crime until the economy gets back to growth again.
- Sep 28, 2008
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Just look at the UK and their lack of guns to see what would happen in the US if we somehow magically got rid of all the guns (impossible).
People would turn to knives, acids and other methods.
Violence is only stopped through cultural shifts.
The culture of the US is one of violence, has been for a very long time.
People would turn to knives, acids and other methods.
Violence is only stopped through cultural shifts.
The culture of the US is one of violence, has been for a very long time.
David Nelson
Permanent Fixture
Honestly how is anyone surprised with the decline of modern society when an full spectrum decline has been ongoing for decades with those responsible being insulated from the fall out of their ruinous choices while at best the older generations being asleep at the switch. Some did it for ideology while many did it for greed all voted for it in some form or another while at the very least allowed it because it wasn't their problem ultimately dooming vast swaths of society to this fate after all there are consequences for destroying the family unit never mind everything else hell they are even destroying the genders and for what so reduce population growth. The greedy ones really had no issue at all with the huge increases in the cost of housing and overall cost of living because it is not their problem being that dumped onto those who can least afford it. They also had no problem with the colossal increases in the cost of education as it is not their problem and the same goes for everything else until it is their problem. Those who did it for ideology are the worst of all such as using the schools to groom kids for predators are perhaps some of the most evil and cowardly people alive because they target the most vulnerable in society. It is truly something to behold just how far modern society has deteriorated over the last couple of decades.
This is what happens when people are stripped of everything meaningful in life and left with nothing.
This is what happens when people are stripped of everything meaningful in life and left with nothing.
David Nelson
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It's good to maintain perspective, the US in particular tends to lose its shit any time anything happens.
The other thing is in the last couple of decades the media here has gone from soft, quiet lies to aggressive manic shit stirring.