The right to die? | Page 3 | INFJ Forum

The right to die?

Discussion in 'Relationships and Sociology' started by Skarekrow, Feb 8, 2020.

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  1. It is against my morals/beliefs and no one should have such a say.

    1 vote(s)
    3.8%
  2. It's fine for others, not for me.

    2 vote(s)
    7.7%
  3. It would be something I would consider for myself.

    10 vote(s)
    38.5%
  4. I support the right to die with dignity, but mental illnesses should not be considered.

    5 vote(s)
    19.2%
  5. I support the right to die if said person fits appropriate criteria no matter the primary reason.

    17 vote(s)
    65.4%
  6. I don't want to think about it...

    2 vote(s)
    7.7%
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  1. BritNi

    BritNi Perceptive Optimist

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    Another note I want to add: I don't think that the practice should be forced upon all doctors. Like, if a doctor disagrees with it and doesn't want to assist someone with suicide, then he or she should not be forced to. That should be their choice too.
     
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  2. OP
    Skarekrow

    Skarekrow ~~DEVIL~~

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    Absolutely.
    One of the hardest surgeries I have ever been a part of was someone who has a cardiac death and is on-bypass keeping them alive momentarily - yet, want to be donors themselves for their other organs.
    See, normally, when you do an "organ procurement" it is someone who is brain dead and thus not conscious when you tie-off the aorta and vena cava while icing down the heart with frozen lactated ringers solution until it stops beating and their body dies.
    Then you have a moment of silence and get to work as it's a race against the clock to get them out and off to wherever they need to go.
    In this case of cardiac death, they roll into the OR suite knowing full-well once they are put under anesthesia, that's that, no waking up.
    The family came in and held their hand but it was still a hard surgery even though they are not going in pain.
    Not everyone can hang with that kind of case, and many of my colleagues signed waivers opting out of any organ procurement no matter.
    I felt lucky to have been a witness to the passing of those people...there is always a connection that remains in some odd way.

    Lots of love!
    :<3white:
     
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  3. AJ_

    Site Supporter

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    Much...all...respect to you SK - if I had seen half of what you have seen I'd be a slop of a mess huddled in a corner. The fact that you've been able to go though all of that and provide comfort and guidance to others is a standard for many to aspire to. Thanks for continuing to share everything that you do - while I'm playing out this role you've been awesome. Much love to you and many others on this forum.
     
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  4. ReasonEnduring

    ReasonEnduring Community Member

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    In my mind -

    Everyone should have a right to choose their own end, its the only thing we really can control.

    HOWEVER.

    Everyone should be supported in having enough joy and comfort so they don't feel the need.

    Some will consider death when life feels hopeless. We need to give hope back to these people. Given them value and purpose again.

    If you live in constant pain with no relief, paralysed living from day to endless day without end, then to keep you alive is basically torture.

    But there needs to be a VERY HIGH threshold with multiple Doctors agreeing there is not now, nor in the near future, a cure for your suffering.

    And if there is a cure, flipping well give it to them.
     
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  5. Vendrah

    Vendrah Regular Poster

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    Problem is that, when people gave the sign, they dont take it serious. They just say that you want attention, and some of them will even use you to say "hey, this is guy is so [insert something bad], look at me, Im so good that I dont need this kind of attention, while this guy doesnt ."
    It is like you need to stab your ownself so perhaps they will take it serious. Perhaps.
     
    #45 Vendrah, Feb 19, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2020
  6. Vendrah

    Vendrah Regular Poster

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    Im sorry for people who are suicidal on this topic... Hope this forum gets them feel more warm and less cold. And sorry for double posting.

    There is one other aspect that it is the society impact. I prefer to not be long as I dont want to encourage anyone: What would be the impact in society if people all over the world had access of a suicide pill by paying 1 dollar in a drugstore? Im sure some non-suicidal people would lose lots of money indirectly because of it (I prefer to not specify why to not encourage anyone). This even makes me question if we are truly "free", since suicides are somewhat of an escape, and some cases (not the I´ll ones) the escape could be done still in life, if there would be some colaboration. Just one soft example, if the person wants affection and see death as a escape for the lack of affection, perhaps an opportunity to go to a new enviroment, system and life towards affection would be a better solution than death. Some suicides could be prevented and suffering softned if people were more able to transit freely into special enviroments, imagine things like, for a random example, an INFJ country with only INFJs, it could help (by my MBTI stats analysis, a country with a single type would fail, but this is just a random example).
     
  7. OP
    Skarekrow

    Skarekrow ~~DEVIL~~

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    That is the current threshold in places that have made the practice legal.
    At least in the US -
    No one is advocating suicide as you describe it - many feel it is "cold" and less "warm"/compassionate to keep dying people alive only to suffer needlessly.
    This is not just talking about legalizing all suicide willy-nilly, nor have those places (states and/or countries) seen a migration of people wanting to kill themselves moving to do so legally once it became legal.
    This is not encouraging suicide in any case, but very specific cases of terminal and untreatable illness that will result in death within a certain time-frame.
    The controversial side of the debate concerning mental illness is definitely a touchy subject, on that I can agree.
    There are those who have untreatable mental illnesses just as there are physiological illnesses, and yes, the bar must be set higher and incredibly strict criteria for them should and must be undertaken.
    If you are questioning how "free" someone is, then restricting their own autonomy and final wishes has to also be considered.
    It would be wonderful if there were more resources to help those suffering, and as far as societal impacts go, it has been shown to have improved palliative and hospice care in those places where it has been legalized.
    People do not have the monetary access to such wonderful services unfortunately in many cases.

    (using OR as an example)
    The number of those choosing to go this route is fairly small actually.

    As far a moving to a new environment, etc.
    That doesn't change a terminal diagnosis.
    In those cases of mental illness, that is the main controversy - can anything else be done to help them improve of get better?
    How long would someone need to prove they will not?
    Decades?
    It's very easy for someone not in the position of suffering to judge, but not the same as living it.
    But yes, it is a controversy - I myself attempted suicide at 19 and have had lifelong depression that I have a very solid handle on now.
    It is also true though that not everyone responds to treatment or help given to them - not to mention the severe lack of resources available here in this country.
    It's highly debatable I agree!

    Take care both of you and thanks for sharing your thoughts!
    Much love!





    Edits - grammar and stuff​
     
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    #47 Skarekrow, Feb 19, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2020
  8. Vendrah

    Vendrah Regular Poster

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    I dont know if you understand me, when I said I was avoiding to encourage I was talking directly about my own comments and not saying that people here were encouraging.
    And I do question if some mental illness (not the terminal patients but rather depressive ones) are a product of enviroment or it would have improvements into different enviroments, because terapy more or less actually moves the person to a comfortable place for a while. If the person would be put in an enviroment where he/she would be more comfortable, and perhaps better understood, than the chances of depression going away is higher. Special enviroments could do some good; It would need careful design, and it wouldnt be much costy if people could actually work on that enviroment as well. However designing that would really require to root the depression causes, and that isnt that easy.
     
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  9. MoonFlier

    MoonFlier Permanent Fixture

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    From an insurance point of view, they'd love it if we had assisted death in place across the entire US. Just as long as it isolates them away from the cost of lawsuits and keeps the financial burden away from them to maintain an otherwise expensive situation they'd be jumping for joy to have the dying off their coverage.

    So... why aren't they lobbying congress to create a law allowing assisted death as a right? I believe they are, but I also believe that there is an even more influential number of lobbyists (religious, pharmaceutical and device manufacturing) pushing the other way.
     
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  10. OP
    Skarekrow

    Skarekrow ~~DEVIL~~

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    I agree with you, yes.
    And I was unsure about what you were implying so thanks for clarifying your point. :)
    It would indeed be wonderful if we had a more comprehensive system for mental health that was still affordable and accessible to those who are in dire need.
    Environment does definitely change the behaviors of many people.
    The only issue is those who are unresponsive to any treatment, there are those who really have run the gambit of various treatments and therapies.
    Imho, those in such a position should have some pathway to be considered for a similar process as one would with a terminal illness.
    There should come a point if they are truly treatment resistant when their suffering will outweigh any more delay.
    But like you said, there should be a high bar for such a thing when in the realm of mental illness.

    Take care!
     
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  11. OP
    Skarekrow

    Skarekrow ~~DEVIL~~

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    People are too worried about so-called "death panels" being created I think.
    It's one thing to choose such a thing for yourself, and another completely to have your insurance push you to do such a thing!
    Still, this is what takes place in a more roundabout way - you're too old/ill, we will not cover (x), too bad if you can't afford it.
    The system is really screwy, at least in the US!!
    Hope you are doing well today!
    :<3white:
     
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  12. ReasonEnduring

    ReasonEnduring Community Member

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    Its not legal in the UK. A lot of big cases in our High Courts about it. Lots of people taking a trip to Sweden/Norway to get around it.

    Funny thing is some in the US accuses the UK using Death Panels in the NHS. Utter rubbish its harder to end a life in the UK than the US.

    Steven Hawking wouldn't have survived in the US, he only survived because he was British and had the NHS.
     
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  13. OP
    Skarekrow

    Skarekrow ~~DEVIL~~

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    You got that right!
    The real death panels here in the US are the insurance companies - they hinder care being given, add additional needless hoops and costs, outright go against the recommendations for treatment by multiple doctors, and have dropped people off coverage for being too expensive i.e. - cancer, lifelong expensive illnesses (supposedly now illegal but they find ways around it).
    That's just barely scraping the surface.
    People bitch that universal healthcare will make them wait for months, or limit their choice of doctors - exactly what the insurance companies are doing to a much higher degree than the NHS or similar.
    (People wait months and months to see specialists all the time here - or have to travel out of town to see someone on their coverage)
    The number one reason for bankruptcy in the US is medical debt.
    Healthcare should never be for-profit...people buying yachts and sports cars from the gouging of life savings.
    Money made off of the disabled, sick, injured, and dying - disgusting.
    How is that any different than war profiteering?

    It doesn't have to be an all or nothing approach with our healthcare services - but there are entire lines of medications I can't even try for the ankylosing spondylitis I have in my spine as I'm priced out of the market - even with the supposedly "really good" insurance I have.
    And yet...where do we stand in terms of quality of care and healthy outcomes?
    Somewhere around 43rd in the world (fluctuates).
    We are number 1 though in how much we pay!!
    (Oh, and also infant mortality rates)
    Yea for us!!
    Free healthcare would be nice...dunno how feasible it would be to flip all of the sudden - but reasonably priced healthcare with fewer restrictions placed on people and physicians seems like it would be fucking fantastic!
    I'm tired of paying through the nose for every goddamn thing.
    We are clearly being gouged and people are being priced out of the healthcare/insurance market completely - do people not think this doesn't contribute to people's death(s)?
    I just don't get it.
    I have and will always be a strong patient advocate, I find it entirely unacceptable in every sense of what is good with humanity to run the show in this way.
    Thanks for sharing your thoughts btw!!

    Rant over - sorry if that wavered off topic there a bit everyone!!!
    Much love!
    :<3white:
     
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    #53 Skarekrow, Feb 20, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2020
  14. ReasonEnduring

    ReasonEnduring Community Member

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    Quite, as someone who just moved to the US I am trying very hard not to get sick.

    I like Bernie Sander's ideas, but I don't think he has the will and support to get them done.The UK's NHS didn't happen over night, it was a hard fought battle after WW2 and a project championed by the nation's first Labour government. Its easier to go from no healthcare to the NHS like the UK than go from the US's Insurance system to the NHS.

    I agree with the candidates who support a public option. Have it affordable, cover everything, subsidised by general taxation and allow those paying privately to buy into the public option instead.

    It won't be perfect but its a step towards free healthcare for all. Big changes need small steps. Can't rush it.

    I also believe we need a seperate system of mental health, much like dental or vsion care. You can't expect normal Doctors to know how to properly deal with Anxiety or Depression or other mental health issues.

    Create a new branch, tell people to get yearly 'Mental Health' checkups like teeth or eyesight, and catch problems early and fix them early.

    Have speciallsed trained in life improvement and dealing with things like understanding how to get out of debt, get over the death of loved ones, bad breakups, or trauma.

    Where drugs are needed give them, but don't default to drugs, they should be a last resort. And make it affordable or free where possible, like the rest of the public option.

    Just my thoughts anyway.
     
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  15. OP
    Skarekrow

    Skarekrow ~~DEVIL~~

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    Wholeheartedly agree good Sir!
    And...welcome to Hell...er...um...America!!
     
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  16. flower

    flower

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    I voted ''It would be something I would consider for myself.'' and ''I support the right to die if said person fits appropriate criteria no matter the primary reason.''

    Everyone should have a right to choose how to end their life, it's their life anyways, not your life but their life. No one else than the person himself/herself shouldn't be able to choose that.

    Only the person himself/herself knows what they've gone through to make such a drastic decision which should never be taken lightly, it's an ultimate and final decision. There's really no coming back after making such decision.

    I have many times wondered about this personally as being someone who has suffered from huge mental and emotional pains for her whole life (from since I was 9-10 years old young girl).

    No one deserves such cruelty.

    A line should be drawn somewhere, always.
     
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  17. OP
    Skarekrow

    Skarekrow ~~DEVIL~~

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    Thank you for sharing your passionate words!
    I very much agree.
    Many people have trouble putting themselves in the shoes of another while maintaining a compassionate point of view.
    The fact is - no one else will ever know what another is feeling to the depth that they experience it themselves.
    No one knows what secret traumas and uncontrollable neurosis are hidden from the view of the public when at all possible.
    Like the story in my first post - the fellow who petitioned the courts to let him go via euthanasia - was denied - killed himself.
    If it is going to happen then I support any person going as peacefully as possible - many suicides are painful, violent, and horrible ways to die.
    If they succeed...sometimes they end up in worse condition than before.

    I have also struggled with depression since I was old enough to walk...my earliest memories are my mom asking me, "Why are you crying", "I'm sad", "Why are you sad?", "I don't know".
    There are those who have had it far, far worse than I have for certain.
    If treatments are exhausted, and said person is unable to function due to their level of suffering - they are indeed autonomous beings and have every right to chose that ultimate decision imho.
    It should of course not be taken lightly and it should have the scrutiny of those who understand what is going on from a psychological, physical, and spiritual viewpoint - but I agree that a road should exist for people.
    (Guidelines and professionals)
    I was considering shock therapy for myself - I tried meditation/fungi first and was incredibly lucky that after 35++ years my depression lifted.
    That was outside of the realm of socially normal/acceptable treatments though - and this was after trying probably over 50 different medications for the condition and countless other treatments throughout my life.
    Not everyone can or should have to continue on forever when faced with endless suffering on levels only known to them.
    Like you pointed out - just because one might disagree with it morally or because of religious beliefs/teachings someone might have - does not mean everyone holds those same views.
    And they are allowed.
    Who is anyone to tell anyone how to think or feel?

    Thanks again for sharing!
    I know you have a difficult time sometimes (I don't assume to know), just know that you have lots of support, friends, and love here on the forum Flower.
    Have a peaceful day/evening.
    :<3white::<3white:
     
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    #57 Skarekrow, Feb 21, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2020
  18. MoonFlier

    MoonFlier Permanent Fixture

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    I believe we need more compassion and less reaction in our world. Understand why someone wants to kill themselves before screaming "insanity!" Most always you'll find pain, pain that didn't have to exist.

    As for allowing anyone to end their life, I disagree. Science has shown that on average our brains do not mature until about age 26. If an 18 year old says "end it now!" I'd refuse and see what we can do to alter their world to help them. Sometimes it's a mentally and physically abusive environment that has someone feeling like the world should end. Other times it may be that they're living a lie - for example children born with male equipment, but are female through and through otherwise (this is a real condition). Then there are the chemical imbalances. I was born with bad lungs. Others have issues in their brains. I don't look at them as broken, but as needing balance which drugs can provide, much like I take for my breathing.
     
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  19. OP
    Skarekrow

    Skarekrow ~~DEVIL~~

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    I agree with that as well.
    It's a tough thing to consider, I don't think we generally view mental health in this society as being as permanent as a physical illness or condition.
    IMHO - I don't feel that euthanasia should be considered until a certain age and time-limit has been reached, and even then only after thorough evaluations by multiple professionals who agree that it's more than a passing phase.
    But no one by any means has to agree with my own opinion(s), it's a very personal and subjective situation.

    Hope you are doing alright!
    Lots of love to you and your Dad!
    :<3white:
     
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  20. ReasonEnduring

    ReasonEnduring Community Member

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    It does depend, if a person cannot feed themselves or move and are in constant pain which cannot be cured, any age, its more cruel to force them to live.

    But agreed, if the person is physically healthy and suffering from mental health conditions thats a different ball game. They need help, not a leathal injection.
     
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