Condoms

[sumone]

If the pope did an excommunication sweep I wonder how many Catholics would be left.
Anyone using any form of birth control ..... EX
Anyone voting democrat .........................EX
Anyone who has had an abortion/performed an abortion .............. EX
Any Catholic who is a practicing homosexual ............................. EX
By the time he was done there'd be nobody left!

 

[Shai Gar]

I don't think the pope cares about dem/repub voting... that's americancentric, he's german...

 

[Creon]

I don't think the pope cares about dem/repub voting... that's americancentric, he's german...

A lot of things that were said on this thread were americancentric, and had probably nothing to do with neither African mentality nor European mentality.

 

[bs98r3kjf]

Question: I don't know if we have any Catholics here but does Catholicism completely prohibit condoms? Is it in the Bible or is it just something that the pope said? Just curious.

 

[arbygil]

The most horrifically sad part of this is that so many of the people who are HIV positive in Africa are women who are afraid to speak out, because they've been oppressed for so long. It ceases to become a religious issue. It's a humanitarian issue...people are dying, but because it's not happening in the United States no one seems to want to fight it.

BTW, 15 million people in Africa have died because of AIDS...and many of those deaths could have been prevented if governments got the word out earlier (or if governments weren't so concerned with "looking righteous").

It's not a choice when you have no choice, is it?

Some good (albeit long) info on the history of AIDS in Africa: http://www.avert.org/history-aids-africa.htm .

In many parts of Africa, as elsewhere in the world, the AIDS epidemic is aggravated by social and economic inequalities between men and women. Women and girls commonly face discrimination in terms of access to education, employment, credit, health care, land and inheritance. These factors can all put women in a position where they are particularly vulnerable to HIV infection. In sub-Saharan Africa, around 59% of those living with HIV are female.

In many African countries, sexual relationships are dominated by men, meaning that women cannot always practice safe sex even when they know the risks involved. Attempts are currently being made to develop a microbicide – a cream or gel that can be applied to the vagina, preventing HIV infection – which could be a significant breakthrough in protecting women against HIV. Women could apply such a microbicide without their partner even knowing. It is likely to be some time before a microbicide is ready for use, though, and even when it is, women will only use it if they have an awareness and understanding of HIV and AIDS. To promote this, a greater emphasis needs to be placed on educating women and girls about AIDS, and adapting education systems (which are currently male-dominated) to their needs.

 

[Quinlan]

Aids is a small price to pay for eternal life isn't it?

(Don't mind me, I'm just playing God's advocate)

 

[arbygil]

When you have war between nations, unthinkable things happen. When American soldiers went to Vietnam some came back with an STD that they gave to their wives. WWII soldiers were shown training vids on sexually transmitted diseases. Every major country that struggles with war also struggles with sexually transmitted diseases - and I can bet you we'll have some soldiers returning from Iraq with some serious ding-dong issues.

If everyone actually were perfect angels and followed the most basic of Christian teachings of staying monogamous with their wives and husbands we wouldn't have sexually transmitted diseases...but we do. So it's time to start thinking about this in a greater sense. It's time to see people as the sexually active lustmonkeys that they are, and teach them to respect the people they're with by wearing protection and making sure they're STD free.

Shoot. STD rates are up in the States, for that matter, among those you wouldn't expect: Pre-teens and the elderly. Why? BECAUSE NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT STIs. HIV is one part of the puzzle, folks, but sexually transmitted diseases are on a serious upswing, too. So don't be a dum-dum. Use a con-dum.

*Thus ends your PSA for the evening*

 

[the]

It is a personal flaw of mine. I have rediculously strong opinions. But when someone elses opinion grates agients mine very strongly, I won't look at the other side, because I will never understand it even if I try.

Very open minded of you.

If you ban condoms I have a serious problem with it. What if I want to use them for my own personal saftey?

Go for it. He didn't make them illegal. He told Catholics they are immoral if they use them. But you don't really care anyway.

Question: I don't know if we have any Catholics here but does Catholicism completely prohibit condoms?

Yes

Is it in the Bible or is it just something that the pope said? Just curious.

It depends on how you want to interpret key passages.

[SIZE=Default]

STD rates are up in the States, for that matter, among those you wouldn't expect: Pre-teens and the elderly. Why?

[/size]

Disney and Viagra, respectivly.

[SIZE=Default]

Anyone voting democrat .........................EX

[/SIZE]

I think Dem is the Roman Catholic party. Wasn't Kennedy a Dem?

 

[Morpheus]

It sure is neat of the pope to spread misinformation amongst the uneducated for the sake of his dogma!

Did you know that there is a common myth in africa, that having sex with a virgin cures AIDS? Gosh, doesn't that sound like a well informed opinion? What do you think, is it too speculative to assume a causality between that myth and all the infant/child rape going on around there?

Also it's commonly believed or at least feared in africa that even wearing a condom can cause AIDS.

 

[Shai Gar]

To be honest, I like the idea of aids. We have too many people.

 

[TheLastMohican]

To be honest, I like the idea of aids. We have too many people.

If that's really the problem, though, wouldn't a more efficient disease be preferable?

 

[arbygil]

It sure is neat of the pope to spread misinformation amongst the uneducated for the sake of his dogma!

Did you know that there is a common myth in africa, that having sex with a virgin cures AIDS? Gosh, doesn't that sound like a well informed opinion? What do you think, is it too speculative to assume a causality between that myth and all the infant/child rape going on around there?

Also it's commonly believed or at least feared in africa that even wearing a condom can cause AIDS.

Which is incredibly sad...some African countries have a near-30% HIV positive rate. Thirty percent of their population either has HIV or AIDS! That is unconscionable! That is another form of genocide to me. If an epidemic of that magnitude started killing even a fraction of Americans (say 1%) the CDC would be in chaos (along with the rest of the country). We'd be fighting for a cure every day and we'd be doing whatever it took to stay healthy.

There are approximately 300 million people in the United States. Imagine if 90 million died or were dying, and nothing was being done to stop it.

That's the approximation. If you wipe out all but 10% of everyone in the United States who is between the ages of 15-65, you'd have 90 million people.

 

[arbygil]

To be honest, I like the idea of aids. We have too many people.

I love this argument. You know why? Everyone wants to limit population growth but they're not willing to commit suicide for it. If you're really serious about overpopulation, you need to be Jim Jones and drink your own Kool-Aid.

Whats more sad than this is AIDS in Africa is targeting a specific minority group as well. TLM is right, it has to be more efficient. Why not let every first world nation's nuke go off simultaneously? There. Crisis solved. There aren't too many people on the planet. There are too many dumb leaders who don't know how to balance their country's growth, or re/use their own country's natural resources.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

Apparently, after viewing another thread, we INFJ's are prone to conspiracy theories. So here's mine:

Catholic Church's stance could we say, is aimed at getting people to have non-promiscous safe sex, ie. married sex. This aim is directly opposed by the promotion of promiscuity. So the Church, seeing the use of condoms both as immoral in itself and as promoting promiscuity, will never support the distribution of condoms - either morally or financially.

Now, it is a well documented fact that Africa, which used to be majority (almost entirely) Muslim, is quickly moving towards Catholicism. In fact, it is estimated that ever day 16,000 African muslims convert to Christianity.

The Theory:
The Catholic Church's rejection of contraceptives is being criticised, for two reasons:
firstly, taking advantage of the AIDs epidemic, to discredit a "too rapidly" growing Church;
secondly, the Church's financial and personell outlay in Africa is enormeous, particularly in the field of AIDs treatment and prevention. If the Church's stand could be swayed, litterally billions of Catholic dollars would begin flowing to western companies, not least of which are the condom manufacturers.

Basically, the Church is growing too quickly and is creating a marked closed to certain western products.


The text below is a quote from:
http://www.condoms4life.org/facts/lesserEvil.htm

Quote from condoms4life.org:
"The Church’s Response to AIDS

One of the most startling ironies of AIDS in Africa is that despite the Catholic church’s ban on the key element of comprehensive HIV/AIDS prevention strategies, the Catholic church is a major provider of AIDS care and services on the continent and in other parts of the world. Approximately 12% of all AIDS care worldwide is provided by Catholic church organizations, while 13% is provided by Catholic nongovernmental organizations, meaning that Catholic church-related organizations are providing some 25% of the AIDS care worldwide-making it the largest institution in the world providing direct AIDS care.29, 30The South African Catholic Bishops Conference’s AIDS Office supports 85 projects and programs in Namibia, Botswana, Swaziland, Lesotho and South Africa, making it one of the largest anti-HIV/AIDS programs in southern Africa and active in many of the countries with the world’s highest rate of HIV infection.31
The church’s programs include caring for orphans of the AIDS epidemic and working to place them in foster homes and helping to support foster families, education and “prevention” programs for primary and secondary school students, home care and counseling programs for people who are HIV positive, in-patient units for terminally ill patients who have no one to care for them, and a program to provide drugs to reduce the incidence of mother-to-child transmission.32
These programs are very much in keeping with the church’s anti-AIDS strategy, which is heavy on abstinence messages and treatment for those who are already ill. In his message to the recent UN special session in HIV/AIDS, Pope John Paul II named access to drugs to prevent mother-to-child transmission and general access to anti-retroviral drugs for AIDS patients as two of the most pressing issues facing developing countries, especially Africa.33 But while the church calls on developed nations to devote more resources to drug access, it deplores the most effective method of halting the spread of HIV: condom education, use and distribution."

 

[Shai Gar]

I love this argument. You know why? Everyone wants to limit population growth but they're not willing to commit suicide for it. If you're really serious about overpopulation, you need to be Jim Jones and drink your own Kool-Aid.

Know why I love this argument? Because it shoots itself in the foot.

The people who want a smaller population are up against a huge social taboo; genocide. Given that we're the only people willing to breach this taboo for the sake of the planet and humanity, our own deaths would impact negatively upon the cause.

It's an argument that makes a laughing stock out of those who use it.

Whats more sad than this is AIDS in Africa is targeting a specific minority group as well. TLM is right, it has to be more efficient. Why not let every first world nation's nuke go off simultaneously? There. Crisis solved. There aren't too many people on the planet. There are too many dumb leaders who don't know how to balance their country's growth, or re/use their own country's natural resources.

Because if everyones nuke goes off at the same time... know what will happen? The biosphere will be destroyed. Nuclear Winter. All the other species will die out at an enormous rate. Your idea does a whole lot more harm than good, and it also destroys most of First World Population. The Educated Population. So what would we have then? An aids infected population surviving after the educated population is destroyed. The people who could possibly stop the disease you're so against are gone, all recorded history is gone, all recorded scientific and technological advancements are gone.

So basically, humanities ability to learn from itself is gone.

Well done Arbygil.


Actually, since Australia doesn't have Nukes... we'll be okay.
Relative World Map of HIV

Relative World Map of Nuclear Arms

Yep. Looks like under your world, I'll still be good.

 

[Shai Gar]

And yes, TLM is right, I WOULD prefer a more efficient disease spread by peoples own rational choices. However, since this is the only one we have got... I'll settle for it.

 

[arbygil]

Know why I love this argument? Because it shoots itself in the foot.

The people who want a smaller population are up against a huge social taboo; genocide. Given that we're the only people willing to breach this taboo for the sake of the planet and humanity, our own deaths would impact negatively upon the cause.

It's an argument that makes a laughing stock out of those who use it.


Because if everyones nuke goes off at the same time... know what will happen? The biosphere will be destroyed. Nuclear Winter. All the other species will die out at an enormous rate. Your idea does a whole lot more harm than good, and it also destroys most of First World Population. The Educated Population. So what would we have then? An aids infected population surviving after the educated population is destroyed. The people who could possibly stop the disease you're so against are gone, all recorded history is gone, all recorded scientific and technological advancements are gone.

So basically, humanities ability to learn from itself is gone.

Well done Arbygil.


Actually, since Australia doesn't have Nukes... we'll be okay.
Relative World Map of HIV

Relative World Map of Nuclear Arms

Yep. Looks like under your world, I'll still be good.

Hey, I was being sarcastic. *Any* person who promotes the willful killing/genocide of mass groups of people is either insane, or absolutely hates mankind. So I'm not in favor of genocide or mass killing either on a small scale or a massive scale, and I'm not in favor of anyone killing themselves to help population growth. That's crazy talk, man!

If I were being serious, I wouldn't touch that argument with a ten foot pole because to me, that argument is inherently absurd, IMO. It belongs in dark comedies.

One death or one million...both too high a price for a belief system.

 

[arbygil]

Flavus...that's sad, isn't it? If we ever wanted a real-world reason why abstinence only education doesn't work, we simply need to refer to Africa. I wouldn't call that a conspiracy, though. I call it sad.

 

[Shai Gar]

@Arbygil - 100,000,000 is not too high a price to pay for a belief system, if your belief is that the earth needs a lower population. It's not about hating your own species, but loving the other ones enough to give them a chance to survive. I stand with Ra's on that.


Since the catholic organisations are the ones providing 25% of the relief isn't it acceptable that their organisations give aid however they want?

If sexual education and condom education people want to further their cause in Africa, why aren't they there like the Catholics trying to help out?

There's an idea for a thread...

 

[arbygil]

@Arbygil - 100,000,000 is not too high a price to pay for a belief system, if your belief is that the earth needs a lower population. It's not about hating your own species, but loving the other ones enough to give them a chance to survive. I stand with Ra's on that.

I know we won't see eye-to-eye, but I think that's what life's all about. Life happens. People are born, people die, and the world continues. A new disease or viral outbreak happens every so often and we find "cures" for it, and another worse outbreak comes to take its place. People are dying from hunger, poverty, and war; cancer, obesity, and heart disease. If that isn't "culling the herd" enough, I don't know what is. I still think we should always try to give help and health to those who desire it and I will fight to live as much as the next person. But we don't need to find more ways to kill off more people. We're already doing a good enough job of it ourselves.

My two cents.

If sexual education and condom education people want to further their cause in Africa, why aren't they there like the Catholics trying to help out?

They're trying to, Shai, but there's a lot of governmental/spiritual resistance on behalf of the governments and conservative religious organizations. Saying you have a sex problem is taboo. Saying you have a "disease" and you need food and medical care is ok. I thought about going myself, but I'd need to raise the support first and I need an organization willing to fund me for a time.

But hey, Shai - if I get to a place and there happens to be a war where I go, I can tell you what genocide's like first hand until some bullet rips me a new one. You'll have plenty of data, then.