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Condoms

((Note: Answer to deleted question))

And it shouldn't, really. They should continue helping out where they can. But it's like putting water into a leaky bucket and carrying that bucket home - you're losing as much as your adding. Education plus the admittance that people will have sex (and teaching them how to practice safer sex) has to be combined. You can tell teenagers and adults not to have sex all you want, but it's not going to stop everyone from having sex. And that's not even talking about rape or incest issues.
 
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Arbygil - I had deleted the post you quoted, as it was petty.

The thing is that a huge number of people in Africa have TV's and radios and know about condoms (if not close to all but a minority). They know what condoms are for and that AIDs is prevalent. What bugs me is that the media (among others) insists that the Church is doing harm by holding a different point of view.

One of my good friends, who went and became a priest is working in Africa (a remote village). He's not an aid-worker, but just a regular priest and his faithful are trying to live committed married lives. But the atmosphere being created by the TV and radio is a deep distrust that anyone (spouse or otherwise) will cheat/sleep around.

I object to the underlying message in promoting condoms: "your all a bunch of animals that will f*** anything given half a chance - so at least wear a condom and avoid catching STD's."

But it burns me to a crisp that people insist the Church shouldn't encourage people in their decision to be faithful to their spouse.

Let me ask this: if you were married and deeply loved your spouse, would you give him/her a packet of condoms in case he/she cheats on you?
 
I agree with that underlying statement. They are a bunch of animals who will fuck anything given half a chance. So are most people in the first world.
 
People are forgetting the rape that goes along with armed groups in Africa. Rape spreads HIV as well...
 
Arbygil - I had deleted the post you quoted, as it was petty.

The thing is that a huge number of people in Africa have TV's and radios and know about condoms (if not close to all but a minority). They know what condoms are for and that AIDs is prevalent. What bugs me is that the media (among others) insists that the Church is doing harm by holding a different point of view.

One of my good friends, who went and became a priest is working in Africa (a remote village). He's not an aid-worker, but just a regular priest and his faithful are trying to live committed married lives. But the atmosphere being created by the TV and radio is a deep distrust that anyone (spouse or otherwise) will cheat/sleep around.

I object to the underlying message in promoting condoms: "your all a bunch of animals that will f*** anything given half a chance - so at least wear a condom and avoid catching STD's."

But it burns me to a crisp that people insist the Church shouldn't encourage people in their decision to be faithful to their spouse.

Let me ask this: if you were married and deeply loved your spouse, would you give him/her a packet of condoms in case he/she cheats on you?

*Nods* I understand your point of view and where you're coming from, Flavus. I'm actually a strong Christian myself and I hold to the teachings of Christ. But Christ also asks us to be compassionate first - not hold to the doctrinal issues of the day. I think everyone has in them the choice to make sound, informed decisions about their sexual activity - but do they? It's not a question of F'ing everything that moves or being like animals. It's a crisis.

Education is key - yes, an abstinence message is a good thing. But it can't be the only thing because it's not changing the outcome. I have nothing against the Catholic church per se. I appreciate everyone's desire to help and bring health and healing to these nations. But part of the problem is the same ol' same ol' when it comes to westernized religion: We instill the values on another culture based on our value identity. We're not speaking the language of the people, we're putting band-aids on deep chest wounds. We're doing what "we" think should be done but we're not getting involved with the culture where they are.

And seriously - even if movies and TV promotes one message, does everyone have a TV? We have TV in the US, but we still have rising STD rates. We still have kids experimenting even though they know they shouldn't. We still have kids thinking that they're safe if they only have oral sex because they won't get pregnant (and then they're shocked when they get an STD).

I'm not saying not to preach the abstinence method. And I'm not saying people of any organization should stop giving aid to the people who need it most. But the problem is bigger than that. It's even bigger than condoms. It's education, it's serving the people, and it's telling them what safe sex really means. If people still think virgins are a cure for AIDS, then the message is not getting out. Safe sex needs to be taught in middle schools, in high schools, and colleges. And contrary to popular opinion talking about it won't make people want to do it more. It just helps them recognize the consequences.

I'd rather put everything out there and tell them about consequences to their actions than do the ol' Nancy Reagan, "Just Don't Do it". Because the inevitable question from there is, "Don't do what? What am I not supposed to do?" And they'll get their answer from their friends, like always.

As to my husband, maybe I won't want to get pregnant. I'd ask for a condom or I'd use birth control - but I want him to be STD free as well. We'll be tested before marriage, and if we're clean so be it. I can't say what I'll ask for in marriage though, because I'm not married. I hope I would trust him and he'll trust me enough that we don't have to worry about it. But it's either a condom or birth control pills for me, and my system is wacky enough that I'll probably ask him to use a condom.
 
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It's pretty ironic: the best way to keep population growth in growth might actually be for those who are worried about it to start reproducing faster than ever.
 
I'd rather put everything out there and tell them about consequences to their actions

Agreed...this is empowerment. Witholding knowledge to alter someone's decision is a form of thought control, and a form of slavery in the end.

AIDS itself is a very mysterious. Humans have been having sex for a long time, but the virus is (maybe?) 100 years old -- extremely recent. Maybe it was around earlier, but it's only been documented that far back, I think. And, actually, the long incubation period makes it even more deadly, because you can infect people over 10 years -- that's a lot of people you coudl be sleeping with. The disease can be transmitted through birth and is near-fatal.

Diseases like Ebola burn themselves out too quickly. That's why generally these epidemics happen in one or two villages and then taht's it. When everyone dies in a day or two then carriers start to die as well. Of course, the risk is that someone gets on a modern airplane and infects a plane, which then infects an airport, etc. That's every disease-manager's nightmare I'd guess.

Funny how we humans are so powerful and so smart and it's a little piece of RNA that can ruin everything!!
 
Question: I don't know if we have any Catholics here but does Catholicism completely prohibit condoms? Is it in the Bible or is it just something that the pope said? Just curious.
I'm not personally catholic, but my parents tried to raise me one, so... Condom aren't specifically banned, buy wasting semen is. According to the people who wrote the bible, the semen of an ejaculation is already a life, and to waste it is murder. any form of birth control is considered murder by the bible.
 
But part of the problem is the same ol' same ol' when it comes to westernized religion (edited by Taz: and region): We instill the values on another culture based on our value identity.

Yup. Let me tell you that: If an average African Hutu read this thread, he would probably say that we come from another planet. Or that we're retarded.
 
It's pretty ironic: the best way to keep population growth in growth might actually be for those who are worried about it to start reproducing faster than ever.

Like reverse Idiocracy.

I'm not personally catholic, but my parents tried to raise me one, so... Condom aren't specifically banned, buy wasting semen is. According to the people who wrote the bible, the semen of an ejaculation is already a life, and to waste it is murder. any form of birth control is considered murder by the bible.

I've never heard this anywhere. Got a reference?
 
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Like reverse Idiocracy.



I've never heard this anywhere. Got a reference?
I had a reference, but I don't feel like going through the whole bible to find it. The closest I could find was
When a man has an emission of seed, he shall bathe his whole body in water and be unclean until the evening
I know the vatican had directly said maturation is bad
Offenses against chastity: 2352 said:
"Both the Magesterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful, have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action." "The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose." For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."
http://ldolphin.org/Mast.shtml
 
I've never heard this anywhere. Got a reference?

I thoguht this was maybe derived frmo the story of Onan, who was struck down by God after he spilt a lil seed?? :m051:
 
I thought this was maybe derived from the story of Onan, who was struck down by God after he spilt a lil seed?? :m051:
Genesis 38:9-10 said:
Onan, however, knew that the descendants would not be counted as his; so whenever he had relations with his brother's widow, he wasted his seed on the ground, to avoid contributing offspring for his brother. What he did greatly offended the Lord, and the lord took his life too.

good point
 
I object to the underlying message in promoting condoms: "your all a bunch of animals that will f*** anything given half a chance - so at least wear a condom and avoid catching STD's."

But it burns me to a crisp that people insist the Church shouldn't encourage people in their decision to be faithful to their spouse.

Let me ask this: if you were married and deeply loved your spouse, would you give him/her a packet of condoms in case he/she cheats on you?


Condoms in Africa are important I think not just because of AIDs and STDs and stuff but because of population control. Places like south Africa have major population problems and necessities like water even are becoming limited. WATER!!!! (And that was from this population movie I was forced to watch I don't remember the name though.) People that are married want to have sex and because they don't have protection women end up pregnant and the population increases.
 
Genesis 38:9-10 said:
Onan, however, knew that the descendants would not be counted as his; so whenever he had relations with his brother's widow, he wasted his seed on the ground, to avoid contributing offspring for his brother. What he did greatly offended the Lord, and the lord took his life too.
This is a lie. God didn't strike Onan down. Otherwise he has changed his mind on the subject. Otherwise I'd be dead.
 
This is a lie. God didn't strike Onan down. Otherwise he has changed his mind on the subject. Otherwise I'd be dead.
I could try to debate the topic, and even get some pretty good evidence (deuteronomy has some good [relatively] stuff), but I'm not even going to defend the bible.
 
Sure, debate the subject, but the fact is, that unless god is constantly doing it, then he obviously doesn't care anymore.

He probably just killed the dude for cuckolding his brother, not wanking.
 
The Catholic attitude seems to be founded on the view that sexual activity is for procreative results only, though there are some Biblical passages which seem to imply acceptance of activity beyond mere procreation within the marriage structure. I would have to search these out.

One fact which must be stated is that according to 2004 statistics, only 17% of the population of Africa as a whole is Catholic. (reference here) This leaves 83% of the population as non-Catholic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_by_country
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Africa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholicism_by_country

Here are two sites which give information on the foundation and Biblical references of the Christian/Catholic viewpoint:
http://www.christiancontraception.com/foreword.php (...scroll down to "Family Planning and Birth Control" for Biblical references)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/christianethics/contraception_3.shtml

I truly do not think that this is either a strictly Catholic issue, nor a strictly Christian issue. There are more non-Christians in the African continent than Christians.

What of the traditional tribal attitudes concerning sex, marriage and contraception?
What are the Islamic and Jewish attitudes concerning sex, marriage and contraception? Most references in the Bible cited against contraception are in the Old Testament, which is still binding on the Hebrew peoples.
What references concerning sex, marriage and contraception are in the New Testament? What are Christ's words towards these issues?

There is much more here than merely the head of a faction of Christianity being opposed to these issues.
 
Sure, debate the subject, but the fact is, that unless god is constantly doing it, then he obviously doesn't care anymore.

He probably just killed the dude for cuckolding his brother, not wanking.
its actually abramist law that if a man dies without any children, than his brother must marry his widow and have children in his name (that what deuteronomy says).
The thing is, I don't want to defend the bible, I'm wiccan, the bible says I'm going to hell, I don't really want to go to hell.