What are your thoughts on time? | Page 2 | INFJ Forum

What are your thoughts on time?

Definitely.



I don't know how... but I do think it's possible.

I think that time is a linear construct that exists within our minds so that we can live life here on earth - it's part of the human reality. However, I think that existence is infinite and perhaps once we awaken from being human (i.e. die), our experience of "time" changes entirely - in that it stops being linear, that the past, present, future all exist at once. That we are not restricted by it.

On earth, things happen in cycles - seasons, daylight, nighttime, growth, animal migration, etc.. And we created our time-system as a way to measure our reality and organize our world. So time is very real to us, and very linear to us - but outside of the reality of being human, it is something entirely different and appropriate for the infinity of existence. Perhaps it doesn't exist.... isn't that what infinity is, timelessness? :)

*nod* I agree. I have no idea how it happens. I really really want to, but I know I won't for a long time. It would be nice if I could before I die.

What is even more facenating, is it is impossible to imagine what it would be like to exsist in a fully nonlinear time exsistance, where you had control over how time moves, and you could overlap moments.

Well, I have to walk to my physics class, I will contemplate this as I head over there :)
 
I don't have the scientific or technical language to express how I envision time, and there's probably a more "modern" analogy to draw, but I tend to think of time in the context of something like this:

recordoftime.jpg


That many (perhaps infinite) "times" or "states of existence" or "dimensions" are existing simultaneously and that if we could pick up the arm, and place the needle down elsewhere, we could be in another time, or dimension.

But again, this is but one of many trains of thought and beliefd I'm still working the kinks out of in my mind.
I definitely agree, but I think what you're talking about is a multiverse theory, and less of a theory about time (yes, your idea actually has a name, how 'bout that...[just can't think of it right now]).
 
It's not quite related to the topic but I had this interest thought today during class. We were "learning" about time zones and the teacher said "Time zones are non-existent and were just made up."

It made me think that since time zones are non-existent that means time is also non-existent. Which means humans exist in something non-existent which means humans technically don't exist.
 
Time zones are a part of how we measure time, not time itself.
 
... which means humans technically don't exist.


I think... I mean, from what I understand, technically we do exist, but only probably. We probably exist.
 
I believe that time is... well... for the sake of making an example, we'll say time is a great big translucent orange cube (I dunno, just how it appeared in my mind). Great big orange cube floating around in 4D. Just as there are infinite points in a line, and infinite lines in a cube, then there are infinite 3D "moments" at each point of the cube's volume. Each "point" in the cube is a perfectly static moment, a fully formed universe of 3D space locked in an unchanging state of simply existing. Every possible combination and arrangement of matter/energy exists within the cube, because you can fit an infinite number of 3D's in a 4D object.

Time is then the act of our perception moving through this 4d space along a course that is considered to be the most in keeping with our paradigm of reality. Not sure if that means I'm the only person in existence or if we actually have some kind of hive-mind... or maybe even God. Who knows. But something is calling the shots and mapping out the course. So we exist in 4D but are only experiencing 3D, giving the appearance of "linear" time in the same way watching a movie gives the appearance of a sequence of images (when in reality every frame of the movie already existed in the first place).

I hope to one day prove this by forcing an alteration to the course we're following and dragging a dinosaur from an adjacent "Cosmic Frame" into our own little movie here.
 
I believe that time is... well... for the sake of making an example, we'll say time is a great big translucent orange cube (I dunno, just how it appeared in my mind). Great big orange cube floating around in 4D. Just as there are infinite points in a line, and infinite lines in a cube, then there are infinite 3D "moments" at each point of the cube's volume. Each "point" in the cube is a perfectly static moment, a fully formed universe of 3D space locked in an unchanging state of simply existing. Every possible combination and arrangement of matter/energy exists within the cube, because you can fit an infinite number of 3D's in a 4D object.

Time is then the act of our perception moving through this 4d space along a course that is considered to be the most in keeping with our paradigm of reality. Not sure if that means I'm the only person in existence or if we actually have some kind of hive-mind... or maybe even God. Who knows. But something is calling the shots and mapping out the course. So we exist in 4D but are only experiencing 3D, giving the appearance of "linear" time in the same way watching a movie gives the appearance of a sequence of images (when in reality every frame of the movie already existed in the first place).

I hope to one day prove this by forcing an alteration to the course we're following and dragging a dinosaur from an adjacent "Cosmic Frame" into our own little movie here.

*nod* I like this.

To draw a parallel, take this example into concideration. Say there is a 2D creature, that can move left right up and down and a mix of all of those. that is all it knows. It can move around on all flat surfaces. To it, it would appear as though our world is just a vast expansive area. If one of us were to come along and "carry" this being to another area, via "in and out" motion, it would appear like magic to the being. Because it could not perceive, nor have the capacity to do that on it's own.

Now scale it up to our 3D self in this 4D world. :)
 
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time is relative. what is the difference between 1 o'clock and 3 o'clock?
2 hours? 5 minutes is just as valid an answer i think. we label time to fit our perspective, what is relative to US. but time is simply a way to measure the the difference between past and future its not a true physical medium, it has no mass, nothing to precisely measure. even light travels on a beam with particles which give it mass. I dont think time can be defined in any quantitative sense, its simply a theoretical idea that we use as a tool to record history, and make plans for the future.

Amazing video that explains Time very well, (and then some [and by some, I mean A LOT!!!])

http://www.tenthdimension.com/medialinks.php


The problem here i think is that the only provable dimensions are 1, 2 and 3. This is pure speculation. Just as the video says we can only see the first 3 dimensions, they are also the only ones that can be proved. I do like the ideas of these dimensions, however, we are limited in our understanding based purely on our outlook (which is confined by the 3rd dimension).

Therefore it is impossible to know whether or not our ideas about dimensions 4-10 are skewed by our perception, our point of view, which is planted firmly in dimensions 1-3.
 
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Time is a measurement of change with respect to another dimensional analysis, that's all. dx/dt... dC/dt, F= ma/(1- v^2/C^2)^0.5. .. .. . doesn't matter. time, by itself and in-and-of itself, is absolutely meaningless and worthless
 
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hehehe Edgar Cayce says Time is an illusion with purpose.

I really have no thoughts on time. Hard to wrap my head around it.
 
Heh, I was all about to start a thread about time, and here you have one already. Maybe in the future I told Satya to start it.

I don’t think time is linear, I think time is a point. But a very dynamic one.

I heard an idea about time that really resonated with me, and it goes like this: Time doesn’t exist, because the past only exists in memory, and the future is only prediction, based on memory. So the only thing that exists is the present.

That totally makes sense to me. No past, no future (kind of depressing thought, but anyway), just the present moment. Then I started wondering why it seems like there’s time, and I came to the conclusion that it must be our mind’s way of dealing with change. Even if the only thing that exists is the present moment, things are obviously changing. Your eyes are changing position as you read this. So what we perceive as the passage of time is only our mind’s capacity for processing the rate of change of the present moment.

Which makes all those times when time seemed to either speed up or slow down make sense, because all that was really happening was that your mind was changing the way it perceived change, while the true rate of change of the universe remained constant.




Definitely cyclical patterns, but what if that humongous cyclical pulsing pattern of Big Bang to Big Crunch is happening in a single moment that never had or will have "time," and the only reason we think it takes billions of years (linearly) is because that's all we're capable of sensing about the rate of change of the universe?

As far as whether or not the physical laws of the universe will change in the next go round, eh, I don't know. When I originally read that I thought about evolution and thought: of course, some kind of evolution must occur between iterations. But for there to be evolution, something has to be carried over. And if all the matter of the universe is getting crunched down into a singularity, I don't really think it's going to be able to carry anything into the next iteration. To me that leaves the question of consciousness. What happens to consciousness at the point of transition between iterations? Can some kind of consciousness survive? If so, then yeah, the laws of physics might change, and in a sort of progressive, pattern based way. But if not... well, maybe they will change due to random circumstances, but at a basic level, doesn't physics try to describe interactions between physical matter? And if all the matter is the same iteration to iteration, how can we expect it to suddenly behave differently towards itself?
I have thought about time quite a long time ago. Especially the idea about cyclical patterns.

I suppose this may be regarded as an eccentric or mystical belief, but I have gathered the impression that time and space are linked in some sort of pattern, and that due to the cyclical nature of time the intersections of time and space form a comprehensive pattern -- much like an odometer in a car where the if each number was multiplied by each other then the final output would seem unintelligible and unrelated to each other -- but in truth time and space act as a single four dimensional entity, possessing intelligible and spacial properties when they are not viewed as separate from each other.

I remember one time, embarking on a search to discover the universal patterns of time, after being inspired by a 20 page excerpt from Jose Arguelles book 'Time and the Technosphere', as well as Michio Kaku's book "Hyperspace". After a couple months of trying to wrap the concept around my head I then got distracted by other things.

Its so hard to express the things in my head. I sometimes feel a sense of being everywhere and nowhere. Like perhaps the entire universe is just a single point in the function of a larger universe. Or perhaps the larger universe exists in the micro of this universe. Or perhaps that humans and order and everything is just a god which is trying to build itself from entropy. Is perception just simplification of the true nature of time and space? Are we like a god who exists in self sufficiency, yet has split his nature in order to explore every facet of its own imagination, because to perceive everything that IS, is no challenge? But to perceive the possibilities of what could be provides challenge and purpose. If god is everywhere and nowhere, then is god the higher aspects of a single pattern? Do we exist as a higher aspect of the same pattern? Confined and viewing somthing from everywhere and nowhere at once? Can the universe be represented by a single kinetic force that operates in multiple dimensions?

Man, I can drive myself nuts if I try to put everything into a coherent form.
 
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hehehe Edgar Cayce says Time is an illusion with purpose.

I really have no thoughts on time. Hard to wrap my head around it.

That makes ALOT of sense to what he said.

It is, and isnt easy to contemplate time. Think to a moment in your life where you seem to witness time where it appears to speed up or slow down signifgntly, even for a moment. Take that and run with it. :D
 
Introduction

Ok, some of this may be hard to understand, but I'll try...

I'm skeptical about the reality of time.

Let me clarify before I get into this. The reality of time is different from the perception of time. Of course we perceive time, but I'm interested in the possibility of our perceptions being different from reality (of course they are...if they weren't then they would be infallible). Is time a property of REALITY or just our perceptions?

David Hume seems to sum this up very nicely. He attacks causality as being something that we can not know to be reality. Causality is summed up in our beliefs that state, "Every effect has a cause," and "Given similar conditions and causes, the same effect will happen."


Induction

To understand his argument, you have to understand the difficulties of inductive reasoning. Deductive reasoning is taking a principle (all dogs are mammals) and applying it to a specific case (Lucy is a dog, and is therefore a mammal). Inductive reasoning is the other way around...it takes several specific cases ("Lucy has four legs and is a dog, Leroy has four legs and is a dog, and Abby has four legs and is a dog) to form a generalization or principle (all dogs have four legs). I purposely used an example that ends in an untrue statement (it can still be a dog if it has three legs for example) to illustrate how inductive reasoning is never 100% accurate, unlike deductive reasoning. The reason for this is because we have only a few examples of specifics (we only know a few dogs) when the conclusion (all dogs have four legs) describes the complete set of dogs (all dogs that ever were, are, and will be). We have an incomplete experience of the entire set of dogs...we only know a few and have fallaciously attempted to make a generalization about all dogs from our limited knowledge.


The Problem:


The problem with the causal laws above ("Every effect has a cause," and "Given similar conditions and causes, the same effect will happen") is: "What proof or justification do we have for believing these laws?"

Hume reasoned that the only justification we have is that every event in the past has been consistent with these laws. We take every specific case in our past, see that they seem to have a causal effect, and conclude that every effect has a cause, and that given similar conditions and causes, the same effect will happen. However, this means we only understand causality inductively. We can't know the future, and so our knowledge of all events having to follow the causal laws is incomplete...we only know part of the set (the past), and much of it remains unknown (the future, and much of the past we don't know exactly what happened either). We fall into the same trap as our dog example above.


How This Relates to Time

Humans can only experience time through the perception of causality, which includes motion (call this sentence/proposition 'A' for future reference). An object stays in motion, so we keep perceiving time, only because it was in motion before. Its previous motion caused its present motion...and because causality is doubtful, then motion is also doubtful. If A is true, and we can doubt both causality and motion as being true properties of reality, then it is also possible that time is not a property of reality. However, I must admit that A can only be justified through inductive reasoning as well. ;)


A Little More on the Problem of Induction

The problem of induction has been a major problem in epistemology and the philosophy of science. The most notable replies to the problem have been:


  • Bayesianism, which basically states that induction doesn't lead to 100% correctness, but only a higher probability of being right. That when events which are consistent with an inductive conclusion occur, one should be more inclined to change one's beliefs to align more with that conclusion...your belief should be the one that is most likely to be true...and since we have so much proof for the laws of causality, versus not believing them to be true, then we should be more inclined to believe them.
  • Karl Popper, who basically said that induction does not exist. We take a competing set of conclusions...then test them. If we find events that aren't consistent with one of the competing theories, then we discard that theory...we do this until we have the right theory.

Both of these theories, though, do not solve the problem of induction, they merely sidestep it:


  • Bayesianism only says one conclusion is more likely...but this does not refute Hume enough...Hume would probably agree that causality is more likely then unlikely, but we have good reason to doubt it, and do not conclusively know inductive inferences to be true.
  • Popper's view only works negatively...we can discard bad theories, but what makes us believe a theory? We still have an imcomplete set of possible theories, and just because all the ones we thought of, save one, have been discarded doesn't mean our sole survivor is right. We haven't thought of every possible theory to compete yet, and so we can not discard them all.
 
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So to sum it up, we cannot know the given nature of a situation because

1) We cannot know the possibilities of the situation which preceded it
2) The forms of reasoning which we use (inductive and deductive) are limited because they assert possibilities which may have nothing to do with the cause of the effect.

Therefore attempts to extrapolate from a given situation may be null and void. Because its causality may lie outside of the domain of our ability to reason and/or scope of our knowledge.

Is that right?
 
So to sum it up, we cannot know the given nature of a situation because

1) We cannot know the possibilities of the situation which preceded it
2) The forms of reasoning which we use (inductive and deductive) are limited because they assert possibilities which may have nothing to do with the cause of the effect.

Therefore attempts to extrapolate from a given situation may be null and void. Because its causality may lie outside of the domain of our ability to reason and/or scope of our knowledge.

Is that right?

Eh, not quite.


  1. Induction is the process of making a rule out of knowing only a few specifics. (ie..."Every dog I've known has 4 legs, so therefore every dog has 4 legs"...or..."The sun has risen every day I've been alive, so therefore it will rise tomorrow")
  2. The laws of causality are:

    • All causes have an effect, and all effects have a cause.
    • Different situations that have similar (or same) causes will have similar (same) effects.
  3. Our only proofs of the laws of causality are from our limited experiences of the past.
  4. Therefore, our proofs of the laws of causality are inductive.
  5. We do not know the future.
  6. It is possible for the laws of nature to change in the future.
  7. The laws of causality are laws of nature.
  8. Therefore, it is possible that the laws of causality could change in the future.
  9. Therefore, the laws of causality can not be known to be true...as they are stated to be UNIVERSALLY true, and are used to make predictions. Because of 5 and 8, causality can not be known to be true for all times...its predictions could turn out inaccurate.

After this, I go on to relate causality and time...


  1. See 9 above.
  2. Our only understanding of time is our inductive experiences of causality and motion. We would have no concept of time without the concepts of causality and motion.
  3. All motions are effects of previous motions (they're dependent on causality).
  4. Therefore, our understanding of time is ultimately reducible to our understanding of causality.
  5. Therefore, our understanding of time is questionable and dubious. I claim skepticism.
 
Time, it seems, doesn't flow...
For some it's fast, for others slow.
In what to one race is no time at all
Another race may rise and fall.

And harder still to recognize
That which lies before one's eyes.
So many races have believed
In only what was preconceived.
That which is ancient may be new...
It all depends on point of view.

We are the watchers of the dance.
Many wonder at us...
But how could there not be an audience
For the greatest of all comedies?
 
Time is such a small word for a grand concept.

I believe time is not present in actuality. In fact, I think it is a singularity that is merely an attribute that has implemented due to human lifestyles. Like mentioned above, it's a tool to separate then from now and now to then.
Surely there is day and night which is cyclic but nevertheless definite, because according to science the big star of ours will die down (the sun).

Because of time, we are apart of a world of stress!
 
Time is effing awesome. Noone knows what it is, yet it's constantly quantified; measured and distributed without authority to anyone who will nibble on the bait (myself included).