The meaning of life

[Duty]

This isnt about the world, it is about the spiritual realm.

Does the "spiritual realm" exist as a subset of the world? Does it have an effect on the world? A proposition about the spiritual realm, in either case, is a proposition about the world and therefore subject to the scrutiny of reason and logic.

IT IS NOT F****** INCORRECT. I FOLLOW MY OWN STANDARDS AND MY OWN REASONS. WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE TO DEFINE WHAT I F****** BELIEVE IN.

You can get pissed off all you want, and follow your reasons all you want. I just don't understand how you can so blatantly go against reason in favor of speculation. If you don't have proof, then your belief lacks what is called epistemic justification. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemic_justification This isn't something I have judged you as a person on...it's just that your belief does not meet a long standing (although debated) standard of reason.

 

[IndigoSensor]

First off, I am sorry I yelled.

Does the "spiritual realm" exist as a subset of the world? Does it have an effect on the world? A proposition about the spiritual realm, in either case, is a proposition about the world and therefore subject to the scrutiny of reason and logic.

Do you seriously...not know? Do you not have some kind of internal concept of what "heaven", an "after life" or, "higher plane of exsistance" is? It can't follow logic because it doesn't follow our physical laws completly.

You can get pissed off all you want, and follow your reasons all you want. I just don't understand how you can so blatantly go against reason in favor of speculation. If you don't have proof, then your belief lacks what is called epistemic justification. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemic_justification This isn't something I have judged you as a person on...it's just that your belief does not meet a long standing (although debated) standard of reason.

The reason I got mad is because you are trying to tell me that what I believe is wrong. It is not wrong. As I have said in the past, it works for me, on an internal personal level. It will never live up to the worlds standards of logic. That does don't make it wrong. It works for me, it makes me happy, it explains how the world works for me. I have my own proof. Just please understand that for petes sake...

 

[Duty]

Do you seriously...not know? Do you not have some kind of internal concept of what "heaven", an "after life" or, "higher plane of exsistance" is? It can't follow logic because it doesn't follow our physical laws completly.

Then what does it follow? I have a hard time even acknowledging the existence of something that can't be detected...

The reason I got mad is because you are trying to tell me that what I believe is wrong. It is not wrong. As I have said in the past, it works for me, on an internal personal level. It will never live up to the worlds standards of logic. That does don't make it wrong. It works for me, it makes me happy, it explains how the world works for me. I have my own proof. Just please understand that for petes sake...

What if I came up to you, and said racism explains the world to me? That it's those dirty Jewish pieces of shit that ruin the entire world, and that their extermination is what would put me at peace?

Well, if someone told me that, I'd think they were foolish. Just because it "works for them" doesn't mean it is ok or in any way right. Now, I used an extreme and more obvious example, but I think this applies to "faith" in the "spiritual realm," as lack of proof is grounds for dismissal (or at best, further investigation), and never grounds for accepting it anyways.

What "works" is acknowledging reality for what it is. Sure, no one is ever perfect at doing this, but making the attempt is the best and most noble a person can do...it's an attempt at honest investigation into the nature of reality, while speculation is lazy and dishonest.

 

[IndigoSensor]

Then what does it follow? I have a hard time even acknowledging the existence of something that can't be detected...

Well at this point, you kind of need to make that leap of imagination.

What if I came up to you, and said racism explains the world to me? That it's those dirty Jewish pieces of shit that ruin the entire world, and that their extermination is what would put me at peace?

Well, if someone told me that, I'd think they were foolish. Just because it "works for them" doesn't mean it is ok or in any way right. Now, I used an extreme and more obvious example, but I think this applies to "faith" in the "spiritual realm," as lack of proof is grounds for dismissal (or at best, further investigation), and never grounds for accepting it anyways.

What "works" is acknowledging reality for what it is. Sure, no one is ever perfect at doing this, but making the attempt is the best and most noble a person can do...it's an attempt at honest investigation into the nature of reality, while speculation is lazy and dishonest.

Yes I see how that applies. In that case though, that is causing harm to others. No one can prove religion or spirituality to anyone. Nearly everyone knows that. I am not trying to prove to you that it exsists. I am just trying to defend myself and say that it isnt wrong.

Oh trust me, I do question what I believe. I ask myself quite often "... is this just a physical phenomon, or is there something more?

Now don't just bawk at this; hear me out. I have bad eyes, thats pretty well known. Last month, I noticed I was seeing lights way more often then I normally do. I always assumed that because I had crappy retinas and that the cone cells didnt have enough retinoid compounds in them, or they were deformed or something to that respect, causing them to randomly submit a signal. Now when this started happening more often. I began to wonder "mabye I am seeing spirits... I never have before, I have only just felt them". But I thought thats silly, and didn't agree with it. I assumed it was something medical. So I took myself to the emergency room to have my eyes examined (I feared retina detacment or vitereiol detachment). I had my eyes checked out. Apparently, I have more then pristine retinas. The doctor went on and on on saying how "perfect" they were (I lol'd). I had a follow up a week later and had my head examined (again...), and they had me on an eeg until I said I saw a few lights. I eventually did. Checked out normal. They scanned my retinas in more detail... There pefect. So I don't have any known medical problem, they couldn't explain it, but I am fine. This, coupled with the energy shifts on the planet, and my recent feelings, lead me to believe that I am seeing energy flux on the planet.

This is the kind of thing that goes on in my head all the time. I do question myself, I don't just blindly belive. I KNOW this doesn't follow typical logical patterns. However, this works for me. Stuff like this has been holding true for me for as long as I can remember.

 

[Duty]

Well at this point, you kind of need to make that leap of imagination.




Yes I see how that applies. In that case though, that is causing harm to others. No one can prove religion or spirituality to anyone. Nearly everyone knows that. I am not trying to prove to you that it exsists. I am just trying to defend myself and say that it isnt wrong.

Oh trust me, I do question what I believe. I ask myself quite often "... is this just a physical phenomon, or is there something more?

Now don't just bawk at this; hear me out. I have bad eyes, thats pretty well known. Last month, I noticed I was seeing lights way more often then I normally do. I always assumed that because I had crappy retinas and that the cone cells didnt have enough retinoid compounds in them, or they were deformed or something to that respect, causing them to randomly submit a signal. Now when this started happening more often. I began to wonder "mabye I am seeing spirits... I never have before, I have only just felt them". But I thought thats silly, and didn't agree with it. I assumed it was something medical. So I took myself to the emergency room to have my eyes examined (I feared retina detacment or vitereiol detachment). I had my eyes checked out. Apparently, I have more then pristine retinas. The doctor went on and on on saying how "perfect" they were (I lol'd). I had a follow up a week later and had my head examined (again...), and they had me on an eeg until I said I saw a few lights. I eventually did. Checked out normal. They scanned my retinas in more detail... There pefect. So I don't have any known medical problem, they couldn't explain it, but I am fine. This, coupled with the energy shifts on the planet, and my recent feelings, lead me to believe that I am seeing energy flux on the planet.

This is the kind of thing that goes on in my head all the time. I do question myself, I don't just blindly belive. I KNOW this doesn't follow typical logical patterns. However, this works for me. Stuff like this has been holding true for me for as long as I can remember.

So, doctors couldn't explain why yet, and so you attribute it to supernatural phenomenon?

 

[IndigoSensor]

So, doctors couldn't explain why yet, and so you attribute it to supernatural phenomenon?

because that is what I felt it was in the first place.

 

[Duty]

because that is what I felt it was in the first place.

God of the Gaps

So, medicine can't explain it yet and so you default to supernatural phenomenon? Why?

 

[IndigoSensor]

God of the Gaps

So, medicine can't explain it yet and so you default to supernatural phenomenon? Why?

Well, cause it explains it to me. It makes sense. It makes sense with the patterns I have noticed with it.

And yea, that link more or less explains alot about what I believe. But it puts a negitive spin on it.

 

[Duty]

Well, cause it explains it to me. It makes sense. It makes sense with the patterns I have noticed with it.

And yea, that link more or less explains alot about what I believe. But it puts a negitive spin on it.

Because it is a "negative" concept. It is widely regarded as a ridiculous and absurd phenomenon. If you lived 500 years ago you would have thought that planets and stars are where they are at because they are moved by gods or angels or whatever, and you would have been flat out wrong (because they're there by natural processes, namely gravity).

Tossing in supernatural explanations for phenomena that just aren't explainable yet is very fallacious. Instead, the proper response has always been, "I can't explain it yet" or "I don't know."

 

[IndigoSensor]

Because it is a "negative" concept. It is widely regarded as a ridiculous and absurd phenomenon. If you lived 500 years ago you would have thought that planets and stars are where they are at because they are moved by gods or angels or whatever, and you would have been flat out wrong (because they're there by natural processes, namely gravity).

Tossing in supernatural explanations for phenomena that just aren't explainable yet is very fallacious. Instead, the proper response has always been, "I can't explain it yet" or "I don't know."

I wouldn't belive what I do if I didn't feel that there was personal truth to it. I have said before, I have seen and felt too much in my life to not believe what I do.

You have to understand with me. I have to come up with a reason for everything. Product of my Ni

 

[Duty]

I wouldn't belive what I do if I didn't feel that there was personal truth to it. I have said before, I have seen and felt too much in my life to not believe what I do.

You have to understand with me. I have to come up with a reason for everything. Product of my Ni

Again, refer to my anti-Semitic example. I have no way to verify your claims, and your insistence on them, without proof or reason, isn't very convincing. You've told me I can't understand them because I can't see in the same way you do...like I lack a "spiritual sense." I've asked you how I may see this "spirit world" and you just tell me that I have to understand it in order to understand it (which is circular). If there is a way for you to show me these forces and entities, I'd like to know.

As it stands now, though, you're basically telling me: "I can't prove it, I can't show you, you just don't understand it, but I can see it, and it's there, you just have to accept that and assume, for all future discourse with me, that I'm right about this."

Well, I'm sorry. I won't do that because that would be dishonest and ridiculous of me. It's like the Antisemitist telling us that we just have to accept his moral code, because he has personal reasons to believe it and has "seen too much to not believe it."


Not everything has to be explained right this minute. Do you just have a psychological insecurity associated with not knowing something?

 

[IndigoSensor]

Again, refer to my anti-Semitic example. I have no way to verify your claims, and your insistence on them, without proof or reason, isn't very convincing. You've told me I can't understand them because I can't see in the same way you do...like I lack a "spiritual sense." I've asked you how I may see this "spirit world" and you just tell me that I have to understand it in order to understand it (which is circular). If there is a way for you to show me these forces and entities, I'd like to know.

As it stands now, though, you're basically telling me: "I can't prove it, I can't show you, you just don't understand it, but I can see it, and it's there, you just have to accept that and assume, for all future discourse with me, that I'm right about this."

Well, I'm sorry. I won't do that because that would be dishonest and ridiculous of me. It's like the Antisemitist telling us that we just have to accept his moral code, because he has personal reasons to believe it and has "seen too much to not believe it."

To be honest, that is kind of what I am saying. I am however, not saying I am right about this, or that you have to accept it. I would never tell that to anyone. It is right for me, that is it.

If there was a way for me to show you these forces and entities I would show you. But there isn't. The only thing I subjest is entering a very haunted building or area (something to that respect), and that would likely give you proof. But I reeeeeeeally don't reccomend doing that...

Not everything has to be explained right this minute. Do you just have a psychological insecurity associated with not knowing something?

Not really. I just really have a problem with dealing with uncertianty. Again, a product of Ni.

 

[Virgoess]

The meaning of life to me is twofold: expressing humanity. That means, stripping away the masks, the exteriors and the walls - just express who you are - what is in your heart and soul. Secondly, being the best you can to others, helping them, supporting them and nurturing them.

 

[EloquentBohemian]

...

 

[arbygil]

EB, we share the saaame humor. How scary is that?!

 

[bamf]

To Duty:

Just because something hasn't been proven doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Things exist prior to scientific discovery.

Just because something has been proven doesn't mean it actually is right.
Science proves inaccuracies.

To only believe what one can see and what one hears is foolish.

 

[Duty]

To Duty:

Just because something hasn't been proven doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Things exist prior to scientific discovery.

Sure, but if it hasn't been proven, then it's unjustified to believe it. Set out to prove it if you suspect it to be true, that's what science is about.

Just because something has been proven doesn't mean it actually is right.
Science proves inaccuracies.

Sure, justification doesn't automatically entail truth. But to have knowledge, one must still have justification. 99% of the claims I rail against on this site lack justification, but not necessarily truth.

To only believe what one can see and what one hears is foolish.

And what other ways do we have? Empirical evidence, logic, and to a lesser extent, testimony are the only ways we have of obtaining knowledge. It's foolish to think that anything but these 3 can provide us with justification.

 

[EloquentBohemian]

EB, we share the saaame humor. How scary is that?!

Highly evolved beings frequently share the same sense of humor.
Without us, there would be no..

[youtube]Tym0MObFpTI[/youtube]

 

[bamf]

What if I came up to you, and said racism explains the world to me?

Straw Man

 

[bamf]

Sure, but if it hasn't been proven, then it's unjustified to believe it. Set out to prove it if you suspect it to be true, that's what science is about.



Sure, justification doesn't automatically entail truth. But to have knowledge, one must still have justification. 99% of the claims I rail against on this site lack justification, but not necessarily truth.



And what other ways do we have? Empirical evidence, logic, and to a lesser extent, testimony are the only ways we have of obtaining knowledge. It's foolish to think that anything but these 3 can provide us with justification.

I'm pretty sure the nature of science isn't to prove things (because something that is 99% likely to be right still hasn't been proven), rather to disprove things that are false. Science has never actually been able to prove its self. It's all theories (and I'm not advocating that one shouldn't believe science, just that your explanation of what is worthy of belief goes completely against the nature of science).

To have knowledge one must be willing to believe in something "foolish" in order to prove it to the rest of the world. "Logical" thinking in the manner that only proven things are worthy of believing in would destroy science. Why bother trying to prove your "gut feeling" or hypothesis? There is no proof behind it and you would hate to appear foolish.

Logical thinking, empirical evidence, and testimony are all based on giant assumptions (granted they are widely held assumption, but assumptions none the less). You can't build the roof of the house until you build some walls so how can we know science is justified when it still can't explain the simplest of questions about the very things that govern life such as "where did matter come from", "what in the world is time", "why do we have only five senses when it leaves us blind to countless beauties of the natural world".

Duty, I'm not trying to say you are right or wrong but your justification to your beliefs is non-logical (and logic is something you seem to prize above all else).