[PUG] RANT: Reality has a Liberal bias...

[Satya]

I'm just worn out. I debate with social conservatives and traditionalists, and provide the strongest peer reviewed evidence I can to back up my assertions and I provide reasoned arguments supported by age old philosophical propositions but it is not enough. I'm told it is all "biased". It doesn't matter how perfectly objective and analytical the study is or how well it follows the scientific method, it is biased unless it supports their viewpoint. If is it particularly damning to their worldview, then it is "PC" the sweet and short way to dismiss everything as politically correct, and thus somehow not true. I have yet to find anyone who can explain to me the reasoning behind this, but it seems sufficient to them.

Has thinking become a value? When I was a child, I never would have thought that there would exist a group of people who are proud that they don't think. In fact, not only are they proud that they don't think, but they are proud that others can't make them think. Now I'm not trying to stereotype here, but it seems whenever I push anyone from these particular right wing groups on the facts that they take a position that reasoning and logic are inferior to their religious faith and internal moral compass. How on earth can they reduce thinking to a value?

I'm notorious for being a smartass, and occasionally just an ass, but nothing I can ever say or do could ever demean a person as much as them tossing their own ability to think and reason for themselves.

The more I study human beings, the more I realize humans like to follow a script. Religious beliefs and political ideologies simply serve as a way for human beings to mindlessly serve as actors in this world, fulfilling roles that were written for them by directors who may have lost touch with reality themselves.

Everyday, I find myself challenging every label that I have felt ascribed to myself. INFJ, gay, liberal, social worker, etc. it all seems like the labels have become more important than the being. I am who I am, too complex to be narrowed down and pidgeon holed into some convenient category for others to stereotype in some misguided attempt to control or pass judgment. It's not like I don't do the same. But I'm tired of it. Maybe I just need to view the world holistically. That seems to be the only thing that people on opposite sides of the religious and political spectrum agree on. Love your neighbor.

 

[Shai Gar]

It's not just Christians. Many "party animals" don't think either, and are proud of the fact.

 

[flux]

Has thinking become a value?

You're getting warmer.

 

[the]

Maybe you should start thinking outside the box.

 

[Duty]

Go watch Religulous, the "father Maverick" Catholic guy says it best:

Bill Maher: "So how do I convince people?"

Father: *rasp and handwave* "Just forget about it, you're just going to have to live and die with your stupid ideas!"

 

[Quinlan]

This thread is biased.

 

[Satya]

Go watch Religulous, the "father Maverick" Catholic guy says it best:

Bill Maher: "So how do I convince people?"

Father: *rasp and handwave* "Just forget about it, you're just going to have to live and die with your stupid ideas!"

Works for me. I'll make it my new policy.

 

[Satya]

This thread is biased.

Clearly, because even the absolute truth would be biased depending on who you ask.

 

[Satya]

You're getting warmer.

Feel free to spell it out for me.

 

[Solar Empath]

Confirmation Bias: yep, you are right. People have a hard time taking an unbiased view of anything.

 

[Sithious]

Calling you biased ain't exactly a valid argument, but you have to remember when most people are cornered they will resort to personal attacks and logical fallacies rather than logic and reasoning. People don't like it that you're attacking their ego, which you are by questioning their beliefs and ideas.

Most people don't have the knowledge nor mental capacity to refute well constructed arguments.

I think you're also dealing with this the wrong way, let people be people, everyone has different opinions and you're not doing yourself any favours by letting yourself be affected and annoyed what others believe.

You're also judging people based on their belief, just because you disagree with someone, even on important issue, doesn't mean you can't get along as humans.

Humans are group animals, we will do what other people do and we are prone to habits and most like the idea of belonging to a certain group of people who can relate with each other, for instance a christian community. Most Christians think the Bible is the infallible word of God and it is stated in the Bible that homosexuality is wrong. As Christianity is their faith, you trying to somewhat logically take a part the Bible is counterproductive.

Maybe you want to belong somewhere too, and that is the reason for the frustration. I also think you want to believe in God, but religions like Christianty are keeping you away.

Maybe you even want to be a Christian...

 

[Norton]

(diverse opinions) x (diverse personalities) x (diversity of intelligences) x ... x (diversity of cultures) = compromise

That is, no matter how strongly you persuade, no matter how logical your argument, everything tends toward the middle (mediocrity?). Of course, autocracies, through coercion, can be on the extreme end of things, but they don't usually work very well.

 

[Moxie]

In these situations I try my best not to judge. If someone is unable to think rationally, I just think to myself, "Eh, forget about." I have family members that are extreme right-wing nuts. I just don't talk to them that much. Yes, they are passionate about their views... but that's their whole life story. They can't except my views as equally valid, because their whole lives would crumble away. I have no wish to destroy a person, ever, so I just wait to find people that really are open to true debate.

I don't invalidate the other ones, I just invalidate them for debate purposes, and try not to judge them, even though I vehemently disagree with them.

 

[Blind Bandit]

Maybe you should start thinking outside the box.

There is no box. We are just waiting for the rest of the world to figure that out.

 

[flux]

Feel free to spell it out for me.

Well, I wasn't trying to make it sound like I had a great secret, but as far as I can tell, it becomes necessary to at least partially accept that human thought, or lack thereof, is so diverse that a conscientious person is bound to find much of it quite dangerous. The key is probably not in tirelessly persuading, as you do (and I have often wanted to do), but in a certain level of acceptance is in order. It doesn't mean that you won't care about the social and political outcomes of your interactions. It just means that your health isn't affected by feeling like you lost, or can't get through to a person.

If INFP.globalchatter.com (R.I.P., deceased over the weekend) taught me one thing, it's that you can't change the way others think nearly as much as how they feel. You can only gently guide them to the truth, and then run away as fast as you can, just in case the powder keg of them + your thoughts may explode -- rather than you + their thoughts = explosion, which seems to be the bigger issue, if I may say so.

For example, this next bit is potentially explosive, so I'll phrase it in the first person. When attempting to persuade a person of a deeply held conviction, I once caught myself using the phrase "diversity of human thought", and realized just how much I was trying to stamp it out in that one particular instance. Hence, my truth hadn't backfired -- but my strategy had. Recognizing that diversity of thought necessarily means that you also recognize the co-existing herd mentality.

Every now and then, if you're going to venture into dangerous waters, it could be advisable to pull a little Stephen Colbert. You can still think in 'enemy' terms if it helps, but infiltrate them long enough to know what makes them tick. Observe. Only then can you begin to take some of it apart. To imitate long enough to decide to either sit on your hands or get your point across is a skill worth having, in my opinion. Wet your fuse, and you can get exactly what you want out of these interactions. Even if it means you decide nice and early who's a jerk, the power is in letting go of your responsibility to change them.

You still have my permission to wrestle their keys away if they're going to drive drunk. But it's not your fault if they're a foot taller than you and you're not able.

 

[Satya]

Maybe you want to belong somewhere too, and that is the reason for the frustration. I also think you want to believe in God, but religions like Christianty are keeping you away.

Maybe you even want to be a Christian...

Maybe its time I give some personal background on this...

I was raised Christian. In fact, I was probably just as religious as 00chris00 when I was younger. As I entered the age of reason, which was I was maybe 8 or 9 years old, I noticed people got really defensive and sometimes even angry when I asked them questions about the religion. I also had different interpretations of a lot of the scripture they had us memorize in Sunday School (and later in Youth Group) and so I was often told how things were suppose to be interpreted. As you probably can tell by now, I'm not the type of person who can be told how to think. I never really took the miracles and supernatural stuff in the Bible too seriously, and I actually thought as I was growing up that stuff was put in there for the kids to believe. I never really believed in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny but I played along and it was kind of the same when it came to church. When I finally realized that adults actually believed the stories were anything but symbolic and allegorical, I tried to convince myself of the same, but it just wasn't happening. When it comes to believing in forgiveness, love, community, etc. I'm good, but talking serpents, arks that hold two of every animal on earth, and a long haired dude with magical powers that can turn water into wine, is way too much of a stretch. So I incorporated a lot of Christian values, but very little of Christianity. On an intuitive level, I just always felt it was a controlling thing.

I often like to blame my sexual orientation from driving me away from the religion, but in truth, my church taught that as long as you took communion at some point and earnestly prayed to accept Jesus as your personal savior, then Jesus would be in your heart forever and you could never be separated from him again no matter how you sinned. As I did so when I was a child the Christian elements of my family consider me saved and a Christian and simply remind me from time to time that I am going to have to humbly atone and repent on the day that I meet my maker. I'm not sure how they came to this interpretation, and I use to think my church was the only denomination that had this belief, but now I understand several denominations hold this view.

As I studied history, science, philosophy, other religions, it was just the final nail in the coffin. I remember when I read that Thomas Jefferson constructed his own bible by cutting out and pasting what Jesus had to say and leaving out all the miracles, that I was called to consider myself a deist. After studying ecology and Taoism, I was drawn towards a more pantheistic view of the world. That is why I tend to have very pandeistic views when it comes to my spirituality.

I have lots of good friends and I'm very comfortable with my spirituality, so I can't say that I'm looking to "belong anywhere". I do have an incredibly low tolerance for hypocrisy and ignorance, and so when I see people using the Bible to judge how others live their lives, I can't help but feel a great deal of anger. For example, I can't tell you how many times I've met people who have been married multiple times and they argue that gay marriage is tantamount to the destruction of the family and traditional marriage. That being despite the fact that Jesus spoke indepth against serial monogamy, but never spoke a word about homosexuality. And I find it ironic that people would use the Bible, a book written in the Bronze age, as some sort of infallible word of God when there are clear inconsistencies and contradictions within its own pages. And of course there is the patriarchal structure of the books, which makes sense given the time it was written, but which people seem to detest taking into historical context. I suppose that is the controlling element that I find abhorrent in the religion.

Do I believe in God? In my own sense, I do. There are times when my anger towards Christianity seems to come between me and what I perceive to be God, but I consider that to be my problem and one of which I am constantly seeking a resolution.

 

[Satya]

There is no box. We are just waiting for the rest of the world to figure that out.

QOTD

 

[Satya]

you can't change the way others think nearly as much as how they feel.

It's interesting that is the seat of all persuasion. No logical, rational argument is ever going to change a person's mind no matter how well supported it is by evidence and reason, the only way to influence others is to understand their feelings. Propaganda and advertisement is considerably more effective than any degree of education or debate simply because of this fact.

 

[flux]

For the masses, usually. For individuals, it depends on the individual. Don't lose sight of that, or you might never try again. And we wouldn't want that.

 

[Satya]

For the masses, usually. For individuals, it depends on the individual. Don't lose sight of that, or you might never try again. And we wouldn't want that.

Level of education and field of study is the only difference I have perceived within individuals that would lead them to challenge this aspect of human nature. Based on what I have seen, I estimate that maybe 10% of the general public has critical thinking ability, and of that 10% I estimate that only 1% of those make a concerted effort to shape their own metacognition by challenging their cognitive and emotional biases. The number of individuals who seem to have any degree of awareness of their own patterns of thinking is incredibly small. Even I have trouble considering myself a member of that group because I often give into my passion despite knowing it is a fruitless endeavor and usually the equivalant of ego masturbation.