Paris Shootings, Explosion & Hostage Crisis 11/13 | Page 4 | INFJ Forum

Paris Shootings, Explosion & Hostage Crisis 11/13

Horatio said:
Cultural identity and shared histories. More westerners can relate to Europe than the Middle East. This is tied into, I believe, what [MENTION=13855]JJJA[/MENTION] mentioned was the "Anglosphere".
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I understand that but shouldn't be human life valued equaly all over the world? Is understandable that someone from neigbouring countries is more emotionally involved, saddened or scared but faraway countries? It is not common sense - it is programing. Divide to conquer is stil very alive and mostly innocent people loose their lives. Very sad all around.
 
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Flavus Aquila said:
If Islam were a Jeep and extremists were like design flaws which regularly caused problems with no permanent fix, like the accelerator getting stuck every now and then. I wouldn't wast time trying to fix it over and over and over again - even if 99.9% of the car's other components were solid. I'd get a different car.

As asshole as it sounds, I think the only constructive thing a muslim leader can do is leave Islam behind and move on with a normal life.
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You spoke of 'normal' as if a Muslim life is not 'normal'.....?

And not to mention every group identity has its flaws. I understand the logic you're trying to explain, and to some extent that is a valid solution*--but there is a certain distance though.

Should a Muslim in China stop being a Muslim because of an action of another Muslim in Bosnia?
I personally don't think so. Just as how I wouldn't demand the same for any religion or group or belief or profession.
Otherwise people should also stop being human.

*) For instance, one living in a toxic community would do better to distance themselves from it.
 
JJJA said:
No, it isn't. It's about bad ideas belonging to a religious cult called Islam. All religion is bad, in my opinion, but Islam seems to be the most dangerous religion at the moment, given the number of Islamic terror attacks around the globe in recent years, and now in Paris for the second time. People should look beyond what they think causes hate and start to criticize religion and its ideas, then the discussion will develop a more analytical approach which can help us identify the root-cause of these attacks. I am not blaming all Muslims, which also demonstrates the point I was making with the ridiculous social media reaction. I never claimed that all Muslims should be blamed. Why can't you separate criticism of ideas and hating people based on their ideas?
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See, you kept trying to aim for a more analytical approach....
......but you're still limiting your perspective to Islam as a dogma. And not only that, you're pointing fingers to Islam as a dogmatic whole, denying the fact that there are denominations and variations of it, just like Christian and Catholic.

At this point it is just like judging the entire Judeo-Christian theology from the actions of Westboro Baptist Church.

Personally speaking, I think you should expand your scope.
Because people have reasons to pick a religion. People have reasons to stay. People have reasons to pick weapons to fight for their religion. What factors are there?

Dogma. Is not. Everything.
 
Trifoilum said:
.....I don't know where you are living, but from my perspective it happens all the time.

Quick searches, and this is for something that happened just around a day ago:

https://www.facebook.com/imamomarsuleiman/posts/1059783334041707

https://www.facebook.com/DrBilalPhilips/posts/10153711927884089

https://www.facebook.com/khalid.lat...8382.162340013860349/1114643665296641/?type=3

https://www.facebook.com/suhaib.webb/posts/10153680041943080



Again, it happens all the time. I understand that this might be due to our difference in perspective (again, I live in the biggest Muslim country in the world).

But Islam's imams work the same way as Christian priests and jewish rabbis-- each has a voice only around their congregation. Do you ask for condemnation from American Christians over atrocities in Russia? Do you demand Chinese Buddhist monks to condemn the brutal actions of Myanmar monks?

Why must Muslim leaders all over the world have to condemn the actions of people who aren't their students?

But they pretty much already have to, especially Muslims in Western countries, because NOT condemning is a quick gateway to bullying and discrimination. (not that condemning helps...)
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US. My news primarily consists of online web pages these days. I read the main page and links associated with it. The occasional video from there as well. All I ever hear from are people who are of the Muslim faith but who no one knows. No prominent folks that speak for the Muslim world.
 
La Sagna said:
If we're going to blame all Muslims for those who identify with that faith but use it as a political tool for their hatred and misguided ways, then should we blame all men because they are responsible for almost all the terrorism and violence in the world?
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Who here is blaming all Muslims? I just dont feel as if people are getting enough feedback from the Muslim world denouncing these atrocities.
 
The head of the major Islamic organization in my country just denounced the act. (but it's in Indonesian so..)

Part of this is also media, I believe. What gets visible and what doesn't.
 
Should all Christians condemn Christian murderers? Regardless, it doesn't change what happened, and it can't bring anyone back from the dead.
 
ezra said:
Should all Christians condemn Christian murderers? Regardless, it doesn't change what happened, and it can't bring anyone back from the dead.
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There's a difference. When a Christian kills (except in defense), he is going directly against the explicit teachings of the Church. When a Muslim kills, there is no real argument that he has done anything inconsistent with the teachings of Islam.
 
Flavus Aquila said:
There's a difference. When a Christian kills (except in defense), he is going directly against the explicit teachings of the Church. When a Muslim kills, there is no real argument that he has done anything inconsistent with the teachings of Islam.
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I'm no expert on Islam, but I know this quote from the Quran (5:32):

We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people.
 
Flavus Aquila said:
There's a difference. When a Christian kills (except in defense), he is going directly against the explicit teachings of the Church. When a Muslim kills, there is no real argument that he has done anything inconsistent with the teachings of Islam.
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You are referring to radical Islam which is extreme. There are also extreme Christian groups. Majority of muslim disapprove this action but it is not reported to western media.

I believe that there is some infiltration in mosques but there are also some other radical groups that target young people who are more prompt to this radical indoctrination.
I just read an article how police in France arrested family of one of the suicide bomber and found Imam in Belgium that allegedly radicalized him. There is no info if they arrested Imam - but to me he is one that should be arrested and prosecuted not the family.
Best solution would be that these radical groups get identified and prosecuted with help of muslims itself, within mosques as well, but there is so much confusion and infiltration all over....
 
For those looking for Muslims to condemn the attacks:

[video=youtube;wfYanI-zJes]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfYanI-zJes[/video]
 
ezra said:
Should all Christians condemn Christian murderers? Regardless, it doesn't change what happened, and it can't bring anyone back from the dead.
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If there were groups of Christians going around today killing people in the name of their religion I would expect the same. I would want to see prominent Christian religious priests denouncing the acts. Going further to explain how those doing tbem had taken the religion out of context.
 
Hey briefly. Again this isnt about everyday Muslims denouncing these acts. Its about prominent figures of the religion doing so. In part to let people who are doing this know they have misinterpreted the religion.
 
Perhaps you should watch this documentary about the "religion of peace":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4DRuPs4mmk

Reading this thread was almost unbearable for me. It almost emanates confusion and ignorance (except JJJA). This does not mean that I fully agree with everything JJJA said so far, for example in my opinion, you cannot "win" against terrorism, you can only limit / contain it.
 
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Guys, GUYS! Islam is as segmented and diverse as Christianity, if not more so:

Madhhab_Map3.png


1024px-Islam_branches_and_schools.svg.png



There is no Pope-like equivalent for Islam, as far as I know, so if you're looking for the denouncement of ISIS, you will have to do some digging to find all the individual imams (for Sunnis), grand imams, allamahs, almamis, caliphs, grand mufti, muezzin, mujtahid, kyai..... you get the picture.

Sunni Muslims are the largest denomination of Islam and are known as Ahl as-Sunnah wa'l-Jamā'h or simply as Ahl as-Sunnah. The word Sunni comes from the word sunnah, which means the teachings and actions or examples of the Islamic prophet, Muhammad.

As the militant group the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria, or ISIS, has seized vast territories in western and northern Iraq, there have been frequent accounts of fighters' capturing groups of people and releasing the Sunnis while the Shiites are singled out for execution.
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ISIS are a type of Sunni that follow Wahhabism/Salafi jihad.
 
These people are jihadists not terrorists.

This happened because of the doctrine of Jihad. Stop acting like it's anything other than jihad, that's exactly what is supposed to be happening in jihad. The non Muslim should be brought to fear Islam and yield to its Sharia demands.

All the talk about peaceful Muslims and the different denominations is irrelevant. If peaceful muslims don't want to be associated with jihad they need to separate themselves from the doctrine of jihad themselves. Nice term Islamaphobia. It's not a phobia if the doctrine says to kill you, and they attempt to kill you, and sometimes do. It's a rational fear, stop victim blaming people. It's obviously extremists but Islam is not above reproach. It is in their doctrine. We have to be able to talk about it.

This is a war against the very civilization of Europe. It's very clear due to the places that they attack. Wake up!
 
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CindyLou said:
These people are jihadists not terrorists.

This happened because of the doctrine of Jihad. Stop acting like it's anything other than jihad, that's exactly what is supposed to be happening in jihad. The non Muslim should be brought to fear Islam and yield to its Sharia demands.

All the talk about peaceful Muslims and the different denominations is irrelevant. If peaceful muslims don't want to be associated with jihad they need to separate themselves from the doctrine of jihad themselves. Nice term Islamaphobia. It's not a phobia if the doctrine says to kill you, and they attempt to kill you, and sometimes do. It's a rational fear, stop victim blaming people.

This is a war against the very civilization of Europe. It's very clear due to the places that they attack. Wake up!
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Who is victim blaming?
This was carried out by a handful of assholes with crazy religious ideology, and we’re ready to blame the entire religion?

There are peaceful Muslims and there are those who hate the west.

Just FYI, where do these guys get their funding?
The vast majority of it comes from Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and the UAE - supposedly our allies right?

So why aren’t we freezing bank accounts and cutting off business with them?
That’s the first thing I would think anyone would do - cut off the funds.

We certainly shouldn’t sell any of them anymore weapons, missiles, jet fighters, tanks, SAMs, etc. etc. and yet we do…
Hmmm.

Most of the 9/11 terrorists were from Saudi Arabia (who I might add has some of the worst human rights violations on the planet) too…and yet, we invade Afghanistan and Iraq?
We enact covert and non-covert missions over countries we don’t have permission to be in and then expect what? To be hailed as liberators?
There has never been such an occupation…never…the occupiers are either pushed out or the natives are killed off.

We have kids flying multi-million dollar drones blowing up shit from afar…the estimates of civilian casualties from just the past two major wars in the middle-east is officially 210,000, but other sources say far more have died.

Can you imagine being in one of these countries? How do you think you would view the US and the West?

BTW, I can offer you a very extensive list of atrocities done in the name of “Christianity”…and yet, I don’t judge the religion on things other people have done that are non-representative of the religion as a whole.
 
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