INFJ vs INTJ - Intelligence

[Ryso89]

that is what I am saying,
If an INTJ requires "proof" for something that is not tangible than yes I would say they are unable to understand abstraction. If the INTJ can not require proof than I would say ok they are able to process abstraction. this would surprise me as i have never met an INTJ that can truly do this. Most live by the motto of "prove it" or you are wrong.

just saying

This is what I've uncovered as well.

INTJ is well equipped to argue, but, for example, every time I get into a debacle with my friend, I seek (and find) a resolution, or at least an understanding, but the argument continues, because he finds another reason to carry on, like an idiot.

Not trying to INTJ bash, but I am trying to add my own personal experiences in the hopes that others with a better grasp on INTJ may weigh in.

 

[highlighter]

I simply do not know/see what arguing produces?
what does it make? create? build? how does arguing enrich lives!?... how does that skill set make the world a better place? how does it bring humanity too a better level of existence? how does it make a person BETTER? stronger? what is the purpose of this skill set?

What i see is that it will either
A. impose a view on another human.
B. beat another human down into submission
C.lift up the party that "wins"

The only possible thing i can come too is that by arguing you are getting people to follow you, but if you are getting people to follow you by an argumentative stance and not via inspiration or love, or loyalty...or TRUST, than i seriously question the humanity of said argumentative person.

now having harmony for harmony sake is not always healthy either people must express themselves honestly ....but I know for a fact people can have effective deep communication without arguing and debate.

 

[t56hg2bv]

No, this isn't the part where I tell you INTJs are worth recognizing, respecting, appreciating or bestowing an honorary place of authority. So lets just move onto business.

In a simple sense:
The INTJ type possesses the functions Ni, Te, Fi and inferior Se as the "main" four functions.
The INFJ type possesses the functions Ni, Fe, Ti and inferior Se as the "main" four functions.

1.) When it comes to emotional intelligence, what have you found are some of the pros and cons of the different functions - particularly Ni and Fi compared to Ni and Fe? What do you enjoy about your functions compared to if you were stuck with the other type's alternative? What are some of the difficulties you have faced with your functions and type in this area?

2.) When it comes to social intelligence, what have you found are some of the pros and cons of the different functions - particularly of... erm... all of the functions, I suppose? What do you enjoy about your functions compared to if you were stuck with the other type's alternative? What are some of the difficulties you have faced with your functions and type in this area?

3.) When it comes to rational intelligence, what have you found are some of the pros and cons of the different functions - particularly Ni and Ti compared to Ni and Te? What do you enjoy about your functions compared to if you were stuck with the other type's alternative? What are some of the difficulties you have faced with your functions and type in this area?

4.) When it comes to practical intelligence, what have you found are some of the pros and cons of the different functions? Maybe cooking, fixing stuff, playing sport and getting the day to day or normal part of life jobs done well?

I'd be interested in your perspectives and thoughts.
You guys seem thoughtful, insightful and reliable enough.
Plus the issue is sort of interesting.

PS. If you have only had experience with the INFJ side of the equation, still feel free to share. It is still good stuff.
Even if you ignore the questions or just use them as guides, as long as generally has to do anything involved with INTJs or INFJs and intelligence it is relevant.

 

[t56hg2bv]

You don't have to have proof of something to contemplate it or how it could potentially fit into a story. Do have to have proof to make it a foundationally relevant measure or addition to a story though.

Good point. The intuitive function by definition helps both ponder that which really has no proof.

 

[t56hg2bv]

I don't see the T/F as rational or irrational as it is for decision making not a measure of intelligence. Instead I see it as a method of choosing outcomes and directing my energy.

I do believe that the degree to which someone is T or F can have an impact on this decision making process. For the INTJ if they are mostly T and little F then there choices can be destructive for many people including their self. The same can be said for the INFJ if they are high F with very little T. I attribute this imbalance to life traumas and probably has been the source of the intuitive function development either directly or through epigenetics / mutation. I mean trauma is powerful and the need to prevent its recurrence can do some powerful things to the human body and mind.

But it really gets down to what is visible to the outside observer (IMO). Since the INTJ hides their feelings it's hard to see if they truly care or empathize with people or the human condition. As an INFJ that makes me very cautious. As for the INFJs they have a tendency to apply what they believe is best and disregard anything but what they see as ideal. This can be equally frightening but at least it seems more predictable as their true feelings are reflected externally.

 

[t56hg2bv]

My experience is that INFJs don't fit into the INFJ group nor INTJs into the INTJ group of cognitive functions. That MBTI is completely subjective and where 1 person sees Te another sees Fe.

Can you provide an example of what you mean by this, "from your experience." This sound very philosophical so I'm a little confused as to its meaning.

 

[Eventhorizon]

I don't see the T/F as rational or irrational as it is for decision making not a measure of intelligence. Instead I see it as a method of choosing outcomes and directing my energy.

I do believe that the degree to which someone is T or F can have an impact on this decision making process. For the INTJ if they are mostly T and little F then there choices can be destructive for many people including their self. The same can be said for the INFJ if they are high F with very little T. I attribute this imbalance to life traumas and probably has been the source of the intuitive function development either directly or through epigenetics / mutation. I mean trauma is powerful and the need to prevent its recurrence can do some powerful things to the human body and mind.

But it really gets down to what is visible to the outside observer (IMO). Since the INTJ hides their feelings it's hard to see if they truly care or empathize with people or the human condition. As an INFJ that makes me very cautious. As for the INFJs they have a tendency to apply what they believe is best and disregard anything but what they see as ideal. This can be equally frightening but at least it seems more predictable as their true feelings are reflected externally.

I don't think it's accurate to say intjs hide their feelings.

 

[t56hg2bv]

In terms of imagination? My imagination is off the charts. I can hold the size ... the distances of the known universe in my head even though for how its compared to us it's basically infinite. This probably doesn't sound like a big deal until you first have an idea of how long it takes to get places and the speeds involved.

I don't believe that large data retention, comprehension, or even visualization is the same as imagination.

Now it did seem like you were trying to type some of those concepts together in that last statement and imagine what might be but I didn't fully tie together the comprehension and the imagination with respect to time loops. Sounds very interesting and on the edge of philosophical, like so many scientists do these days when creating hypothesis and theories. I just couldn't tell if it was existing ideas or new ones you were imagining.

 

[Eventhorizon]

I don't believe that large data retention, comprehension, or even visualization is the same as imagination.

Now it did seem like you were trying to type some of those concepts together in that last statement and imagine what might be but I didn't fully tie together the comprehension and the imagination with respect to time loops. Sounds very interesting and on the edge of philosophical, like so many scientists do these days when creating hypothesis and theories. I just couldn't tell if it was existing ideas or new ones you were imagining.

So now I dont measure up to being able to imagine or having an actual imagination. Well he'll, I guess I don't measure up to even being human. How lowly am I.

 

[t56hg2bv]

I don't think it's accurate to say intjs hide their feelings.

Ok, hide might be a misleading word, but there feelings are internalized and their thoughts are externalized. I no hide sounds intentional but what I meant was hidden from view externally.

 

[t56hg2bv]

So now I dont measure up to being able to imagine or having an actual imagination. Well he'll, I guess I don't measure up to even being human. How lowly am I.

There's those feelings. You are now entering your shadow function. I'm not attacking you, nor am I judging you. Just stating perspective and trying to understand yours. Was really seeking clarification.

Do you feel judged a lot? I often wonder why an INTJ would engage in an INFJ board so regularly. INFJs will naturally be wary of INTJs and at some level you consciously / unconsciously recognize this. My gut feeling is that you have a repition compulsion for feeling judged (probably from a parent in the past) and that INFJs are some of the few people who can help you succeed in fulfilling that RC. Don't get me wrong, we all do this to some extent, you just seem to do it exceedingly better than most.

 

[t56hg2bv]

I simply do not know/see what arguing produces?
what does it make? create? build? how does arguing enrich lives!?... how does that skill set make the world a better place? how does it bring humanity too a better level of existence? how does it make a person BETTER? stronger? what is the purpose of this skill set?

What i see is that it will either
A. impose a view on another human.
B. beat another human down into submission
C.lift up the party that "wins"

The only possible thing i can come too is that by arguing you are getting people to follow you, but if you are getting people to follow you by an argumentative stance and not via inspiration or love, or loyalty...or TRUST, than i seriously question the humanity of said argumentative person.

now having harmony for harmony sake is not always healthy either people must express themselves honestly ....but I know for a fact people can have effective deep communication without arguing and debate.

Instead of seeing it as arguing and winning, instead try to see it as constructive debate and personal growth. This is especially good for INFJs because we need to have some of our ideals challenged. That some of those ideals aren't the only way the world should be, and other perspectives need to be viewed because other people's ideas have value.

 

[Eventhorizon]

There's those feelings. You are now entering your shadow function. I'm not attacking you, nor am I judging you. Just stating perspective and trying to understand yours. Was really seeking clarification.

Do you feel judged a lot? I often wonder why an INTJ would engage in an INFJ board so regularly. INFJs will naturally be wary of INTJs and at some level you consciously / unconsciously recognize this. My gut feeling is that you have a repition compulsion for feeling judged (probably from a parent in the past) and that INFJs are some of the few people who can help you succeed in fulfilling that RC. Don't get me wrong, we all do this to some extent, you just seem to do it exceedingly better than most.

Those are good questions. While I do not know for sure I have questioned why I have remained here for so long. I think in part it's because introverts have a basic understanding of each other and intuitives have a communication style that resonates. Also it should be obvious at this point but I am not overly endowed in the feelings department so I have been attempting to learn in that regard. However I can say after having been here that my reservations on the value of feelings have only solidified. How ever active I may appear now I was much more active in the past. Now I only post detailed responses if I find something of interest or value. This is why I post a few sentences here and there most of the time now.
I suspect that with time you will continue to see me fade. Many of the people I interacted with just disappear one day or change their screen names. So I am left to venting on political issues having no real other place to do so.

 

[t56hg2bv]

Those are good questions. While I do not know for sure I have questioned why I have remained here for so long. I think in part it's because introverts have a basic understanding of each other and intuitives have a communication style that resonates. Also it should be obvious at this point but I am not overly endowed in the feelings department so I have been attempting to learn in that regard. However I can say after having been here that my reservations on the value of feelings have only solidified. How ever active I may appear now I was much more active in the past. Now I only post detailed responses if I find something of interest or value. This is why I post a few sentences here and there most of the time now.
I suspect that with time you will continue to see me fade. Many of the people I interacted with just disappear one day or change their screen names. So I am left to venting on political issues having no real other place to do so.

My SO is very similar with respect to feelings. She is a doctor of psychiatry (MD) and can really challenge me when it comes to the T/F dichotomy (ESTJ). At times it's hard to tolerate her big thinking brain but I really do value it.

Having worked in IT for over two decades I've had the chance to engage many INTJs. Very capable, very intelligent, and have much to offer the world. Try your best not to disavow your feelings, they matter and you need them. Loving someone for their feelings is the very thing that will make you feel more complete. The same is true for me loving my SO for her thinking even when it makes me crazy. That's growth at its highest level and has tremendous value. Not to mention they will have the ability to do / see all the things we can not.

 

[Billy]

Can you provide an example of what you mean by this, "from your experience." This sound very philosophical so I'm a little confused as to its meaning.

well MBTI is very philosophical and not very scientific, so...

 

[t56hg2bv]

well MBTI is very philosophical and not very scientific, so...

Fair enough. In what aspect is it philosophical? Have you developed a philosophy or are you referencing one specifically? I would love to see how you connect those dots.

Personally, I believe the studies and data that was collected to derive the foundation for MBTI, including work done by Jung, Myers-Briggs, Kiersey, and many others in the fields of psychology have built a solid foundation for how people interact with the world. Have you read any of their works? Are there any specific points you disagree with in their research and publications? Do you have a specific MBTI teprament that has been deduced by any of the self assessments?

 

[t56hg2bv]

@Billy Didn't mean to run you off. Really did want to hear what you had to say. You seem to be here regularly, are you just not interested in these questions and dialogue?

 

[Tin Man]

There's those feelings. You are now entering your shadow function. I'm not attacking you, nor am I judging you. Just stating perspective and trying to understand yours. Was really seeking clarification.

Do you feel judged a lot? I often wonder why an INTJ would engage in an INFJ board so regularly. INFJs will naturally be wary of INTJs and at some level you consciously / unconsciously recognize this. My gut feeling is that you have a repition compulsion for feeling judged (probably from a parent in the past) and that INFJs are some of the few people who can help you succeed in fulfilling that RC. Don't get me wrong, we all do this to some extent, you just seem to do it exceedingly better than most.

I disagree with your assessment here. I think you're projecting your own feelings of caution onto an entire community. I've never felt anything but welcomed by this forum. While I've come across one or two INFJs with your mentality, I certainly wouldn't still be here if I felt constantly judged and rejected.

 

[t56hg2bv]

I disagree with your assessment here. I think you're projecting your own feelings of caution onto an entire community. I've never felt anything but welcomed by this forum. While I've come across one or two INFJs with your mentality, I certainly wouldn't still be here if I felt constantly judged and rejected.

I wasn't projecting it on an entire group. I was speaking directly to one person about some very specific points. I also was not judging him as I stated further down in the dialogue. I have read many of the messages he has posted and I've seen a lot of the response dialogue.

So maybe you don't like what I'm saying but it's not because it was a stereotype.

And I can say that I have been very borderline INFJ / INTJ in all my MBTI assessments. I have worked in the IT community for over 2 decades and know many INTJs that I have much respect for.

Perhaps you didn't keep reading after the first one or two exchanges. More of that sentiment was drawn out.

Not to mention I set up a list of people I follow on this site the day after that and he was one of them.

 

[invisible]

Those are good questions. While I do not know for sure I have questioned why I have remained here for so long. I think in part it's because introverts have a basic understanding of each other and intuitives have a communication style that resonates. Also it should be obvious at this point but I am not overly endowed in the feelings department so I have been attempting to learn in that regard. However I can say after having been here that my reservations on the value of feelings have only solidified. How ever active I may appear now I was much more active in the past. Now I only post detailed responses if I find something of interest or value. This is why I post a few sentences here and there most of the time now.
I suspect that with time you will continue to see me fade. Many of the people I interacted with just disappear one day or change their screen names. So I am left to venting on political issues having no real other place to do so.

Speaking as an INFJ, I'm not impressed that you see this as primarily being a place to play out your impotent rantings about your personal political beliefs. Although I'm not really very surprised, it is still somehow amazing to see how little you actually give a shit about the community here, to the extent that you perceive us as an audience to vent on. Like yeah, you really contribute to the community by posting. Congratulations on the process you are undertaking of fading out of the community, I hope it greatly benefits you.