INFJ vs INTJ - Intelligence

[invisible]

I disagree with your assessment here. I think you're projecting your own feelings of caution onto an entire community. I've never felt anything but welcomed by this forum. While I've come across one or two INFJs with your mentality, I certainly wouldn't still be here if I felt constantly judged and rejected.

I hate to admit it because I like to be nonjudgmental but I'm kind of split on INTJs, Tin Man. There are those of you who are shit heads, (apparently totally impenetrable to non-domestic thought), and there are those of you who are wonderful. Humourous, insightful, caring, gentle, thoughtful. I have a friend from childhood who is a wonderful one, she is working at a university in Brussels now, I love her very much. You are obviously one of the awesome ones. You're one of the ones who makes me think "Hey, I need to quit being such an evil INFJ bitch, and try to foster a more welcoming and peaceful atmosphere for different types here on the forum". Hope this helps xox <3

 

[t56hg2bv]

Speaking as an INFJ, I'm not impressed that you see this as primarily being a place to play out your impotent rantings about your personal political beliefs. Although I'm not really very surprised, it is still somehow amazing to see how little you actually give a shit about the community here, to the extent that you perceive us as an audience to vent on. Like yeah, you really contribute to the community by posting. Congratulations on the process you are undertaking of fading out of the community, I hope it greatly benefits you.

You're so passionate @invisible . Man that seems like an ironic statement.

I know @Eventhorizon can be rigid in his thoughts about some things (especially politics - something I like to avoid), but he has also started some very good threads that I really have enjoyed. When I find myself getting irritated by INTJs I remind myself that all of my ideals aren't always the best for everyone. And when I see a statement that seems completely wrong to me, I have to step back and reflect on why it irked me. It's an opportunity for me to grow. Besides, if everything was always peaches and cream then the world would be very dull (or cultish).

 

[Tin Man]

I wasn't projecting it on an entire group. I was speaking directly to one person about some very specific points. I also was not judging him as I stated further down in the dialogue. I have read many of the messages he has posted and I've seen a lot of the response dialogue.

So maybe you don't like what I'm saying but it's not because it was a stereotype.

And I can say that I have been very borderline INFJ / INTJ in all my MBTI assessments. I have worked in the IT community for over 2 decades and know many INTJs that I have much respect for.

Perhaps you didn't keep reading after the first one or two exchanges. More of that sentiment was drawn out.

Not to mention I set up a list of people I follow on this site the day after that and he was one of them.

INFJs will naturally be wary of INTJs and at some level you consciously / unconsciously recognize this.

You literally posted that all INFJs must be cautious of INTJs. Now I don't know if this is projection, or you merely stereotyping an entire group of people based on your preconceptions.

 

[Tin Man]

I hate to admit it because I like to be nonjudgmental but I'm kind of split on INTJs, Tin Man. There are those of you who are shit heads, (apparently totally impenetrable to non-domestic thought), and there are those of you who are wonderful. Humourous, insightful, caring, gentle, thoughtful. I have a friend from childhood who is a wonderful one, she is working at a university in Brussels now, I love her very much. You are obviously one of the awesome ones. You're one of the ones who makes me think "Hey, I need to quit being such an evil INFJ bitch, and try to foster a more welcoming and peaceful atmosphere for different types here on the forum". Hope this helps xox <3

You had me at shit head.

There are quite a few arrogant, obnoxious INTJs out there. Just as there are many emotionally volatile and abusive INFJs. While MBTI can most definitely be useful, I think it takes a back seat when it comes to relationships. As long as you're emotionally mature and willing to listen, type doesn't matter to me. I'm not on here because this is an INFJ forum. I'm here because this place is filled with such creative, intelligent and caring people such as yourself.

 

[Happy Phantom]

This is what I've uncovered as well.

INTJ is well equipped to argue, but, for example, every time I get into a debacle with my friend, I seek (and find) a resolution, or at least an understanding, but the argument continues, because he finds another reason to carry on, like an idiot.

Not trying to INTJ bash, but I am trying to add my own personal experiences in the hopes that others with a better grasp on INTJ may weigh in.

I feel your pain and have experienced this irl and online. The ones I know simply cannot stfu and put themselves in another person's shoes. They are selfish aka narcissistic and it's like bashing your head repeatedly against a concrete wall.

 

[t56hg2bv]

INFJs will naturally be wary of INTJs and at some level you consciously / unconsciously recognize this.

You literally posted that all INFJs must be cautious of INTJs. Now I don't know if this is projection, or you merely stereotyping an entire group of people based on your preconceptions.

I never said they "must be." Don't twist my words. I said are naturally, which is a true statement. And I think I summed up the reason why that is the case - because of their exterior thinking Te function and, "hidden" feeling Fi function. Just look in society about the famous INTJs. Post a thread about them (if you like), and ask the INFJs of this group if they would naturally trust those people. Here's a list if you're interested in following up on it:

http://www.celebritytypes.com/intj.php

I believe the response you will see is that the majority will say they are very smart and highly capable but trust will not be high on the attributes listed. I chose the word wary because caution is what I believe most INFJs would reflect. If you post the thread, and I am completely wrong, then I will happily issue a statement of reconsideration. Of course there has to be consensus and enough feedback to make it legitimate.

 

[Tin Man]

I never said they "must be." Don't twist my words. I said are naturally, which is a true statement. And I think I summed up the reason why that is the case - because of their exterior thinking Te function and, "hidden" feeling Fi function. Just look in society about the famous INTJs. Post a thread about them (if you like), and ask the INFJs of this group if they would naturally trust those people. Here's a list if you're interested in following up on it:

http://www.celebritytypes.com/intj.php

I believe the response you will see is that the majority will say they are very smart and highly capable but trust will not be high on the attributes listed. I chose the word wary because caution is what I believe most INFJs would reflect. If you post the thread, and I am completely wrong, then I will happily issue a statement of reconsideration. Of course there has to be consensus and enough feedback to make it legitimate.

"Naturally" suggests a strong inclination towards that attitude. Saying it isn't the same as "must" is really just splitting hairs.

I doubt many on that list have taken the MBTI, let alone discussed their type. It's possible they have similar characteristics, but classifying them all as INTJs based on limited data is presumptuous.

You were the one who first pushed the notion that INFJs feel caution towards INTJs. And you have, thus far, held stance on your view point with little, but your own belief to back it up. So burden of proof, yada, yada, yada.

 

[t56hg2bv]

"Naturally" suggests a strong inclination towards that attitude. Saying it isn't the same as "must" is really just splitting hairs.

I doubt many on that list have taken the MBTI, let alone discussed their type. It's possible they have similar characteristics, but classifying them all as INTJs based on limited data is presumptuous.

You were the one who first pushed the notion that INFJs feel caution towards INTJs. And you have, thus far, held stance on your view point with little, but your own belief to back it up. So burden of proof, yada, yada, yada.

Naturally suggest what is in nature. I'm not imposing my will on anyone. I didn't go to an INTJ board and tell anyone there how they should be so I'm not imposing it on anyone. You on the other hand are doing just that.

Look, if you don't like the idea that some people might have a different perspective of the INTJ type then it sounds like you have a problem with people giving their ideas in an open forum. Perhaps you are narsasistic and can't take the idea that some people might have a different outlook then you and that's why you are lashing out at an honest and open discussion. Nothing you have stated has been respective of MBTI. If you don't like MBTI and don't think any of it has value then why are you on a board that is specifically geared to that of typing?

If you want to know what INFJs think and feel about INTJs (as we have discussed) then post a thread. Stop being such a whiny little bitch and add some actual value to the discussion.

 

[Eventhorizon]

I think this is a good time to interject that mbti is a great tool people can use to gain a better understanding of themselves and even the people around them. However it's still just a tool, its one piece of a puzzle.
As much as I relate to the definition of an intj, I am still an individual. I like to think of myself as an intj in progress of shedding of such a simplistic classification. Not that I want people to guess at my personality, only that I want people to not care as much about a classification as they do about uniqueness and/or the person themselves.

 

[Eventhorizon]

I mean imagine the person who takes mbti too seriously and who can't act differently or try different things because they worry of if they do they can't call themselves a specific mbti type anymore.
I just live my life and say what I mean bluntly. People talk of tact, I find it to waste time. Occasionally I put the effort forth to implement tact and fail more often than not. Perhaps making the situation worse than if I had simply been blunt.

 

[t56hg2bv]

I mean imagine the person who takes mbti too seriously and who can't act differently or try different things because they worry of if they do they can't call themselves a specific mbti type anymore.
I just live my life and say what I mean bluntly. People talk of tact, I find it to waste time. Occasionally I put the effort forth to implement tact and fail more often than not. Perhaps making the situation worse than if I had simply been blunt.

Well said. My SO is terrible at tact. For me it make life very easy. At first it was difficult and I had learned over years that I had to be subtle and understanding and a bit conformative (such is the nature of having daughters that are touchy-feedly). I'm still that way with them but now I love all of the straight forwardness because I no longer have to guess. But at first it was a bit difficult because the "rules" of engagement had been so different in the past.

But that is the nature of INFJs. There are exceptions but thats just what they are - exceptions.

 

[Tin Man]

Naturally suggest what is in nature. I'm not imposing my will on anyone. I didn't go to an INTJ board and tell anyone there how they should be so I'm not imposing it on anyone. You on the other hand are doing just that.

Look, if you don't like the idea that some people might have a different perspective of the INTJ type then it sounds like you have a problem with people giving their ideas in an open forum. Perhaps you are narsasistic and can't take the idea that some people might have a different outlook then you and that's why you are lashing out at an honest and open discussion. Nothing you have stated has been respective of MBTI. If you don't like MBTI and don't think any of it has value then why are you on a board that is specifically geared to that of typing?

If you want to know what INFJs think and feel about INTJs (as we have discussed) then post a thread. Stop being such a whiny little bitch and add some actual value to the discussion.

Wow. So much for polite discourse.

I didn't really take issue with what you said about INTJs. I was only pointing out my problems with your interpretations of INTJ/INFJ relationships. And then when called upon to back up your claims you resort to insults.

Also I'm genuinely confused as to why you liked my comment, when it also aroused the response "Stop being such a whiny little bitch".

 

[t56hg2bv]

Also I'm genuinely confused as to why you liked my comment, when it also aroused the response "Stop being such a whiny little bitch".

Juxtaposition. Just because I'm a little irritated by what I consider your incessant need to change my perspective does not mean that I don't value you as a person. I know that we are going to have to agree to disagree on this matter because our perspectives are what they are.

I called you a whiney little bitch for two reasons. One, because it felt like you were feeling attacked as a person and needed to defend that to the world. I assure you, it was not about you. Secondly, I though you were being whiney and bitchy, like I would expect my daughter to behave when she was three.

As an INFJ, I often try to give insight into behavior. I was hoping that you might be self reflective and see the whiney bitch comment combined with the request for value to be added to the conversation and actually do that (add some value). But you still want to make it about you and me and I'm really not interested in us. If you do have something to add to the conversation a would be happy to discuss it constructively. If you just want to argue about perspective then I'm not interested.

 

[Vienna]

Hmmm...mm mm mmmmh....
Hello, I'd like to say a few things.

About INFJ's being naturally wary of INTJs
I tried, but I don't get how and why. It might make sense to me, if I consider it in this simple way: Fe is concerned with the well being of people and harmony, while Te with objective facts and consistency. To someone using Fe, Te might be problematic because it makes decisions based on facts only, while disregarding other people's personal reactions, thus jeopardizing the harmony that Fe holds so dear. If this is what @FreeSp1r1t is talking about, then ok, I see it. I just wouldn't describe it as something that would make someone suspicious about someone else. It's just a different orientation when interacting with the world. It doens't make someone ambiguous.
But then there's another point. INTJs have Fi, FreeSp1r1t mentions that. But that means INTJs have personal values their actions and thoughts will be in line with, and they are more concerned with how things impact them personally, than how things would impact others. This might sound selfish, but suspect? Not to me at least. To me, it means that whatever INTJs are saying or doing, it speaks of their personal feelings and values. Thus, if I want to know INTJs' feeling and thoughts I just listen to what they say and see what they do. INTJs not acting "outwardly emotional" on their feelings is not something that I think would raise suspicion: their own feelings are still what their tertiary function is based on and I don't think it's that difficult to find out what they're like, for an intuitive type like INFJs are.
While...based on what I see FreeSp1r1t is pointing at, as a trait that would naturally alarm INFJs(the Fi being "hidden")...well, I'll try to make it a short story. INFJs are Ni doms that have Fe as auxiliary function and Ti as third function(next is Se). Fi is not even there. INFJs are awesome at valuing everybody's values and feelings. Good luck figuring out what are their own. (And I mean personal ones, not universal Fe values).

About MBTI functions and people
To me, the best way to talk about MBTI functions is to talk about MBTI functions; to start from a definition of a function and then see how it would interact with others(also well defined. Because if one defines, for example, Ne as "costantly seeing possibilities in the external world" and the other defines it as "bitch you can't even pay attention to me for more than two seconds", then these two are discussing two different things). MBTI is a clever system and it's a joy to apply it to social dynamics(explains well and makes easier so many things in life/people!)and for self investigation/growth whatever, but it's based on 8 cognitive functions. People are not made of just cognitive functions. Cognitive functions are ideas based on a specific aspect of people. They are conventional "things", just like words are. You cannot describe people with just cognitive functions. Shall I go on? I will only add this to close the "careful about definitions" parenthesis: one day Someone finds out he is this thing called INFJ (or whatever, it's just an example but I'm getting tired of writing it, so I think I'll be soon developing a new hypotetical type called ANUS to use for example purposes). This INFJ thing perceives mainly by means of Ni but also with Se. Someone starts forming in his head an idea of what these Ni and Se are, and because(he thinks) he is this INFJ thing himself, he assumes everything he perceives, is perceived through Ni and Se, and begins to use himself(as a person) as a basis to define Ni and Se. Someone is wrong.

About value and this thread
What would bring value to this conversation? Because this thread is about "infj vs intj intelligence" and everything that is coherent with this topic should thus be valuable, shouldn't it? FreeSp1r1t used his INFJ intelligence to give his insight into Tin Man's behaviour. Fine. How is @Tin Man 's attempt to make FreeSp1r1t realize, that what he said about the "natural" inclinations of INFJs towards INTJs is just his opinion, and not a fact, not valuable?

About many other things, but I won't now because I'm not sure my irony would be appropriate in this context.
Coming soon but just maybe

That said, I wouldn't discard FreeSp1r1t's opinion on the wariness thing, because if it is true it would make me,as an INFJ, even more of a freak of nature, for my unnatural tendencies, and someone has an opinion about INTJs being drawn to freaks. Come and get me INTJs. Mlmlmlmlml

 

[Tin Man]

Juxtaposition. Just because I'm a little irritated by what I consider your incessant need to change my perspective does not mean that I don't value you as a person. I know that we are going to have to agree to disagree on this matter because our perspectives are what they are.

I called you a whiney little bitch for two reasons. One, because it felt like you were feeling attacked as a person and needed to defend that to the world. I assure you, it was not about you. Secondly, I though you were being whiney and bitchy, like I would expect my daughter to behave when she was three.

As an INFJ, I often try to give insight into behavior. I was hoping that you might be self reflective and see the whiney bitch comment combined with the request for value to be added to the conversation and actually do that (add some value). But you still want to make it about you and me and I'm really not interested in us. If you do have something to add to the conversation a would be happy to discuss it constructively. If you just want to argue about perspective then I'm not interested.

I honestly don't care about your opinion on the matter. I was only trying to offer an alternative viewpoint.

You ask me to look at my behavior, I would advise you to do the same. If your inclination is to verbally attack those you disagree with, then perhaps you need to develop some emotional maturity.

 

[t56hg2bv]

Hmmmm, your words, not mine!!!

 

[t56hg2bv]

To someone using Fe, Te might be problematic because it makes decisions based on facts only, while disregarding other people's personal reactions, thus jeopardizing the harmony that Fe holds so dear. If this is what @FreeSp1r1t is talking about, then ok, I see it. I just wouldn't describe it as something that would make someone suspicious about someone else.

Not suspicious but cautious. I have many INTJ friends and acquaintances. I've read about INTJs and their ability to produce great results and change. This is very promising but also in many of my readings a common theme is the moral compass with respect to INTJs. If this compass is maladjusted at an early age then the results produced can be detrimental to society because of the high potential therein. Because the Fi is "hidden" it gives caution not suspicion. I would never assume that someone is going to be bad because of a type but I do watch closely and try to understand the true motivation and the potential impact of the INTJ activities. If you look at many example of people in society (that are perceived as INTJs) some have done really great things but it is often overshadowed by the ones who have hurt a great deal of people.

This is equally true for INFJs. Many say Hitler was an INFJ. The difference is that INFJs feelings are external and can be ingested by others; whereas, that can not equally be said for the INTJ. It's like shrodingers cat, you won't know what's inside until the box is opened and that box is tightly sealed (sometimes with several layers of encryption.)

INFJs are awesome at valuing everybody's values and feelings. Good luck figuring out what are their own. (And I mean personal ones, not universal Fe values).

I would agree with this on many levels. INFJs can be emotional messes. Most need therapy to get in touch with who and how they are. There are exceptions and from my experience it generally comes later in life as they develop their Se function and learn how to accept and own their anger. That it's ok to be angry and loving at the same time (selfless and selfish) and that it's healthy to do just that. This is critical to the INFJ because they can be very manipulative, passive aggressive, and hurtful with wizard like skills if they don't really get in touch with their inner demons. And yes INTJs have similar demons that they must deal with equally.

Cognitive functions are ideas based on a specific aspect of people. They are conventional "things", just like words are. You cannot describe people with just cognitive functions.

I also agree with this. MBTI is more of a temperament. It is a foundation for cognitive functioning and interaction with the world. Equally, the traumas people have experienced in their past (often in childhood and adolescence) can have great impact on adult behavior. I also believe strongly in love languages as it pertains to relationships. I know many counselors that use this in couples counseling but it can equally be helpful with parent-child and adult-adult interactions. People need to feel loved and knowing what makes them feel that is invaluable to possitive outcomes and great relationships.


Great post BTW. Very insightful.

 

[Skarekrow]

View attachment 35934 Hmmmm, your words, not mine!!!

Actually those were my words.
And it is quite true...please stop being uncivil with each other now.
I know we can all be reasonable... @FreeSp1r1t I haven’t known you that long (but you seem to be intelligent and passionate) but I can personally reassure you that you have taken @Tin Man all wrong and vice-versa.
He is one of the most really kind, compassionate, thoughtful, and insightful INTJs I have ever met.
That quote was me saying that there are quite a few INTJs who are exactly that (sociopathic dickheads)...but he is not one of them.
Let’s please just start over?

 

[Happy Phantom]

I think this is a good time to interject that mbti is a great tool people can use to gain a better understanding of themselves and even the people around them. However it's still just a tool, its one piece of a puzzle.
As much as I relate to the definition of an intj, I am still an individual. I like to think of myself as an intj in progress of shedding of such a simplistic classification. Not that I want people to guess at my personality, only that I want people to not care as much about a classification as they do about uniqueness and/or the person themselves.

I'm curious, are you able to empathize with certsin people? Can you put yourself in another person's shoes without being critical and understanding their pov?

 

[Vienna]

Well,
@FreeSp1r1t , thank you. I would have liked to receive feedback on other points as well, but I'm not here to force anything onto anyone. Some of your positions are now clear to me. I'm still dismayed at your attitude towards Tin Man though. Please consider Skarekrow's words(hello, @Skarekrow ) who just managed to say something about it in a civil manner. Something I can't promise I could do. And I don't know any of you which makes this none of my business really but hey, it's not pleasant to witness all this.