How Hebrew words are translated for the Bible | Page 2 | INFJ Forum

How Hebrew words are translated for the Bible

Discussion in 'Philosophy and Religion' started by Kmal, Jan 24, 2012.

Share This Page

Watchers:
This thread is being watched by 5 users.
More threads by Kmal
  1. hithere

    Banned

    Joined:
    May 28, 2020
    Threads:
    6
    Messages:
    351
    Featured Threads:
    5
    Likes Received:
    1,883
    Trophy Points:
    912
    Gender:
    Female
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Enneagram:
    147
    Ok, would be happy to. Thanks for asking. Hope you don't regret it, because I can get a little carried away sometimes ;). Let me know if that happens.
    A lot gets lost in translation, though. Usually the English translation is a far echo from what it really means and all that it symbolizes.

    (There are four levels of understanding for everything in the Torah, and the actual word/s used alludes to all four of them.
    1. פְּשָׁט Transliteraration: Peshat. Comes from the root "simple/ straight/ literal" and means the simple, basic, most surface understanding.
    2. רֶמֶז Transliteration: Remez. Comes from the root "hint/ allude to" and means the deeper meaning.
    3. דְּרַשׁ Transliteration: Drash. Comes from the root "to seek" usually by comparitive analysis etc.
    4. סוֹד Transliteration: Sod. Comes from the root "secret" and usually refers to kabbalistic/ esoteric meanings/ interpretations. )

    With my translations I plan to stick to peshat as I understand you are interested in knowing the most literal basic tranlation. Here is one for starters, the passage I referred to when quoting the word "vayeda".

    והאדם - V'ha'adam - And (now) the man
    ידע - Ya'da - had known
    את חוה אשתו - et Chava ishto - His wife Eve (Btw, Chava comes from the word life and she was called so as she was "eim kol chai" mother of all life.)
    ותהר - V'tahar - and she conceived
    ותלד - V'teled - and she birthed
    את קין - Et Kayin - Cain
    ותאמר - Vatomer - and she said
    קניתי - Kaniti - (My husband and) I have acquired
    איש - A man
    את הי - Et Hashem - with God

    So this is the most basic literal translation with no expounding on any deeper meanings whatsoever. Btw, Artscroll publishes this sort of translation.
     
  2. hithere

    Banned

    Joined:
    May 28, 2020
    Threads:
    6
    Messages:
    351
    Featured Threads:
    5
    Likes Received:
    1,883
    Trophy Points:
    912
    Gender:
    Female
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Enneagram:
    147
    ברוך אתה הי אלוהינו מלך העולם Baruch atah Hashem (btw, when I write Hashem it's referring to the actual name YHVH) elokeinu melech ha'olam - God, you are the source of all blessings on earth

    I don't even know if this is written anywhere in the Torah (it probably is) But it just annoys me that it's generally translated as "Blessed art thou the Lord" when it means the opposite. We are not the source of blessings. He is.
     
    Themis likes this.
  3. Themis

    Themis Community Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2020
    Threads:
    4
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    735
    Trophy Points:
    862
    Gender:
    Male
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Eli, eli lama sabachthani .
    Who said that and when?
     
    PapillonT and hithere like this.
  4. hithere

    Banned

    Joined:
    May 28, 2020
    Threads:
    6
    Messages:
    351
    Featured Threads:
    5
    Likes Received:
    1,883
    Trophy Points:
    912
    Gender:
    Female
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Enneagram:
    147
    Do you mean Eli Eli lama azavtani?

    My God my God why have you abandoned me?

    King David said it in psalm 22 when he was going out to war and it seemed his enemies had a sure victory.
    Queen Esther also said psalm 22 when going to see King Ahausrous.
    Of course they knew God had not actually abandoned them but there are times when God is figuratively nearer. Other times He is still right there but it's like there's this fog between them that prevents them from feeling his presence.
     
    PapillonT and Themis like this.
  5. Themis

    Themis Community Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2020
    Threads:
    4
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    735
    Trophy Points:
    862
    Gender:
    Male
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Thanks for the answer, ya this is what i meant. On Greek translation Eli would mean Hlios which is sun.
    Although was not written in psalm, this phrase doesn't exist in the old testament, or we read a different bible
    It was said by jesus when he was in the cross and is written in Matthew 27. 45-46
     
  6. hithere

    Banned

    Joined:
    May 28, 2020
    Threads:
    6
    Messages:
    351
    Featured Threads:
    5
    Likes Received:
    1,883
    Trophy Points:
    912
    Gender:
    Female
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Enneagram:
    147
    Just checked it up. It's there Psalm 22.
     
    Themis likes this.
  7. Themis

    Themis Community Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2020
    Threads:
    4
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    735
    Trophy Points:
    862
    Gender:
    Male
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    We read different bible, in the new Greek orthodox bible this phrase is out! Only in Matthew in the new testament is written which probably you don't have. This is why i found the bible a total unreliable book, because everyone wrote what he wanted
     
    PapillonT and hithere like this.
  8. hithere

    Banned

    Joined:
    May 28, 2020
    Threads:
    6
    Messages:
    351
    Featured Threads:
    5
    Likes Received:
    1,883
    Trophy Points:
    912
    Gender:
    Female
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Enneagram:
    147
    I'm not familiar with the New Testament. The Old Testament in the original Hebrew is the same across the board - aside from about six spelling differences. The important thing to me is that the Hebrew version never changed.
    But I hear where you're coming from.
     
    #28 hithere, Jun 10, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2020
    PapillonT and Themis like this.
  9. Themis

    Themis Community Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2020
    Threads:
    4
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    735
    Trophy Points:
    862
    Gender:
    Male
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    You should get familiar, Is interesting just for the Knowledge .
    To be honest i find the whole Bible kind of fake, its full of Contradictions, I am my self kind of contradict towards Jews, I don't agree with a lot of things through their History but i was born and grow up in a Religion and a family who shares a lot of their principles and just for that i have Huge Respect .
    I like listening Rabbi Dr. Abraham Twerski, but through my history with religion i start to question everything
     
    hithere likes this.
  10. hithere

    Banned

    Joined:
    May 28, 2020
    Threads:
    6
    Messages:
    351
    Featured Threads:
    5
    Likes Received:
    1,883
    Trophy Points:
    912
    Gender:
    Female
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Enneagram:
    147
    Interesting. I'm curious which things stand out as bothersome to you?

    I once heard from Rabbi Doniel Katz " The God that you don't believe in, I don't believe in either."
     
  11. Themis

    Themis Community Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2020
    Threads:
    4
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    735
    Trophy Points:
    862
    Gender:
    Male
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    There is many things.
    From the beginning till the end what i read in the old testament has to do with violence, crime, blood, sperm, idolatry, murdering, gold, adultery, prostitution, slavery and so on and i think to my self if jehovah is love peace and compassion why all this pain? Why so much suffering? Does God need all these things to be worshipped?
    I was always feeling the black sheep in the synagogue when i was asking
     
    hithere likes this.
  12. hithere

    Banned

    Joined:
    May 28, 2020
    Threads:
    6
    Messages:
    351
    Featured Threads:
    5
    Likes Received:
    1,883
    Trophy Points:
    912
    Gender:
    Female
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Enneagram:
    147
    That's a really good question.
    I'm going to try to answer to the best of my ability and understanding.
    There are two points I want to address.
    1. The fact that the Israelites were commanded to kill nations at certain points and the fact that there is a concept of an earthly court where in qualifying circumstances capital punishment can be carried out.

    2. The fact that there are many instances in the Bible showing human weakness (do we agree that the Torah was bringing our attention to these instances for the lessons we can learn and was in no way endorsing their behavior?)

    I'm going to start with the first point.
    First of all, all the things you mentioned are bad behaviours that we are specifically commanded against.

    The Bible tells the story of the formation of a nation.
    For that nation to come into being there had to be certain ingredients in place. Do we understand why and how those ingredients were necesary? I don't. Maybe some Rabbis can tell you the deeper meaning behind them. What I do know is that those ingredients led to an extremely unique nation.
    That nation now, as I know it, has an extremely high sensitivity to morality, kindness and justice.

    Do we understand why all the ingredients had to be there? No. But as Abraham did with Isaac, the people of Israel followed God's command because their deep recognition and knowledge of God preceded the command and so they humbled themselves to follow it despite the incomprehension.

    In fact, there is a blessing in the Torah to people who follow God's command in such situations saying that despite them carrying out these commands, it will not blunt their sensitivity to compassion and morality.

    It also says in the Talmud that if the courts sentenced one person in seventy years to death they were considered a murderous court.
    There were so many requirements to actually be able to carry out the death sentence that it was an extreme rarity.
    As an aside, I believe all those punishments illustrate important concepts whether or not they were applicable in real life.

    Let me know if the second point bothers you as well and I will address it to the best of my ability.
     
    Themis likes this.
  13. Themis

    Themis Community Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2020
    Threads:
    4
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    735
    Trophy Points:
    862
    Gender:
    Male
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Thank you for your answer, its very hard to convince me just because of this,

    I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. Isaiah 45 7

    So the commander of all these crimes was God him self?

    I know that you don't have the answers, its a very difficult subject even for rabbis.
    What i keep is that some Jews i know are very moral and decent people, the new generations have learned a lot.
    I haven't read the 5 books of Moses but in general the Jews have a very cruel God and that made them in the old days a very cruel nation.
     
  14. hithere

    Banned

    Joined:
    May 28, 2020
    Threads:
    6
    Messages:
    351
    Featured Threads:
    5
    Likes Received:
    1,883
    Trophy Points:
    912
    Gender:
    Female
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Enneagram:
    147
    Just to be clear, I am not trying to convince you of anything. Just sharing perspectives here.
    It's interesting how totally different my view is of the same God. A totally loving and benevolent God.

    I would imagine you have had a lot of pain in your life and you are a courageous person to constantly be seeking. I respect all truth seekers.

    I don't know how you are reading the Bible but it was not how I was taught it. I was taught in the original Hebrew and I don't think the way you are seeing things is the way it was intended to be learned.

    Jews look at themselves as the authority on the way the Torah is meant to be understood as the Jews are the ones who received it. There is something called mesorah, the chain of transmission.
    There was hesitancy to ever translate it and was only eventually done so under coercion.
    The fear was that it would be perverted. I believe it has been perverted by other religions.

    I have been heavily influenced by the works of Rabbi Aryan Kaplan the Ramchal, Rabbi Moshe Iserlis' book " The way of God" and recently started listening to Rabbi Doniel Katz of Elevation which kind of mirrors my philosophy on life.
     
    Themis likes this.
  15. hithere

    Banned

    Joined:
    May 28, 2020
    Threads:
    6
    Messages:
    351
    Featured Threads:
    5
    Likes Received:
    1,883
    Trophy Points:
    912
    Gender:
    Female
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Enneagram:
    147
    This has bothered me as well. If God is the source of everything how can there be evil? So ultimately, I understand there is no evil, only that which appears to be evil.

    The answer I got that satisfied me most was the following. It's a bit cryptic but bear with me.
    God created the world using the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet. The letters can be scrambled in many ways. Evil results from certain combinations. But those letters can be rearranged back into goodness.

    I believe there are volumes addressing this question. I can do more research and get back to you.
     
    Themis likes this.
  16. Themis

    Themis Community Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2020
    Threads:
    4
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    735
    Trophy Points:
    862
    Gender:
    Male
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    I know we just have a discussion which i find very interesting, its also nice to find people who can go a bit deeper on this matter.
    My father was throwing out of the community after 50 years of service just because of answered questions that he shouldn't ask, me and my family were always seeking the truth even though is painful as you said but for a lot of people who are in authorities this is very disturbing.
    Its not how I'm reading the bible is which bible I'm reading, unfortunately the originals, the very few ones that were saved got corrupted from the people who translate them, so is almost impossible to find out what is reliable these days. I haven't had in my hands the original, obviously I'm not even able to read it. I have read though some books of the bible in the original form in the old greek language, the differences of the meanings compared to modern greek are obvious.
    The Codex Sinaiticus that was written in greek at around 380 after christ i believe that is the most reliable book but the church denies its worthy just because its questioning the existence of jesus and many other facts, so is very difficult to find the actual truth.
    The first 200 years after christ there is not one single letter saved, because all evidence and books were burned, a huge knowledge that got lost.

    I find the philosophy of today's rabbis way better than the old days because they have being developed through the years
     
    hithere likes this.
  17. just me

    just me GONE

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2009
    Threads:
    220
    Messages:
    12,403
    Featured Threads:
    19
    Likes Received:
    7,483
    Trophy Points:
    1,121
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    not here
    MBTI:
    infj
    Enneagram:
    6w5
    Remez would be a good comparison for understanding: yes or no?
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    Themis and hithere like this.
  18. hithere

    Banned

    Joined:
    May 28, 2020
    Threads:
    6
    Messages:
    351
    Featured Threads:
    5
    Likes Received:
    1,883
    Trophy Points:
    912
    Gender:
    Female
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Enneagram:
    147
    Yes but not the obvious understanding. More of a deeper hidden understanding that you have to dig a bit to get to.
    Remez literally means hint.
     
  19. Themis

    Themis Community Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2020
    Threads:
    4
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    735
    Trophy Points:
    862
    Gender:
    Male
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    You getting on my point some how, i think that we interpret an action as evil or good, what is for me good it might be evil for you.
    An other thought is if God is everything then he is also evil, because evil exists, god is also pain because God is all. i don't think we are aloud to say that god is only love, i find it a bit egoistic.

    Your thought about the alphabet and evil could make sense, but you have to find these certain combinations and put them together and see the results
     
  20. hithere

    Banned

    Joined:
    May 28, 2020
    Threads:
    6
    Messages:
    351
    Featured Threads:
    5
    Likes Received:
    1,883
    Trophy Points:
    912
    Gender:
    Female
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Enneagram:
    147
    Wow. I'm so sorry you had to go through that.
    May I ask which religion you were brought up in? I didn't understand from your previous post if it was a Jewish community or not.
     
    Themis likes this.
Loading...

Share This Page