Ground Zero
- Thread starter Stu
- Start date
Satya,
Wrong guess. I've read the Quran, and I've read the Bible cover to cover 3 times, excepting Leviticus, which bored me to death. One of my best friends is a Minister as well, and we often discuss this.
Two people can read the same thing and see totally different things, esp. if they have an agenda. Two people can have totally different experiences in life as well, which color their views. If you had been raised on stories of the Holocaust, as I was, you might interpret things differently. I am half Jewish, but attend a metaphysical Christian church.
Part of this might also be age. When I was young, I wanted to believe that all people wanted peace and believed in kindness and tolerance. I was naive and innocent, which is a good thing, but only up to a point. That point is reached way before they are cutting off people's heads on TV, IMO.
I also did not understand that you don't need a time machine to go back in time on this planet. Islam has kept it's people living in the 11th century, in dire poverty with no hope of escape, and nothing better to look forward to than 72 virgin martyrdom, with all the cultural values that go along with that. They simply don't look at life the way we do....the basic paradigms are totally different. The fact that Mohammad married an 8 yr. old girl is not in dispute by anyone. Look up child marriages in Islam and you will find plenty to make you lose your lunch.
Of course there are exceptions and very good people who are Muslims, but the experts I've read and respect, many of whom are Muslims who came here to get away from extremism, say the truth is that about 80% believe the later writings of Mohammad which call for deceiving and killing all Infidels, and 20% are moderates, who prefer his earlier writings, and I've seen nothing going on that contradicts that.
You are entitled to your view, and so am I. Peace,
klutzo
Wrong guess. I've read the Quran, and I've read the Bible cover to cover 3 times, excepting Leviticus, which bored me to death. One of my best friends is a Minister as well, and we often discuss this.
Two people can read the same thing and see totally different things, esp. if they have an agenda. Two people can have totally different experiences in life as well, which color their views. If you had been raised on stories of the Holocaust, as I was, you might interpret things differently. I am half Jewish, but attend a metaphysical Christian church.
Part of this might also be age. When I was young, I wanted to believe that all people wanted peace and believed in kindness and tolerance. I was naive and innocent, which is a good thing, but only up to a point. That point is reached way before they are cutting off people's heads on TV, IMO.
I also did not understand that you don't need a time machine to go back in time on this planet. Islam has kept it's people living in the 11th century, in dire poverty with no hope of escape, and nothing better to look forward to than 72 virgin martyrdom, with all the cultural values that go along with that. They simply don't look at life the way we do....the basic paradigms are totally different. The fact that Mohammad married an 8 yr. old girl is not in dispute by anyone. Look up child marriages in Islam and you will find plenty to make you lose your lunch.
Of course there are exceptions and very good people who are Muslims, but the experts I've read and respect, many of whom are Muslims who came here to get away from extremism, say the truth is that about 80% believe the later writings of Mohammad which call for deceiving and killing all Infidels, and 20% are moderates, who prefer his earlier writings, and I've seen nothing going on that contradicts that.
You are entitled to your view, and so am I. Peace,
klutzo
Yeah, I'm not buying that in the least. Good try though.
Yes you are. I'm sure you feel quite content with it.
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We will soon see more Islamic love as the nuclear reactor at Bushehr is loaded with Russian fuel during the next week or two. It is only a matter of time. Talk about a huge spider web being spun...
Yes, even the Saudi rulers do not like to see radical Islam walking/running in this direction, and for good reasons.
160 million bucks in American aid to, out of all places, Swat Valley in Pakistan from America. Flood of Biblical proportions. What does that say of our inappropriate nature?
Yes, even the Saudi rulers do not like to see radical Islam walking/running in this direction, and for good reasons.
160 million bucks in American aid to, out of all places, Swat Valley in Pakistan from America. Flood of Biblical proportions. What does that say of our inappropriate nature?
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The world gets smaller every day. The integrity of our nation is questioned daily by those trying to rid us of our religious beliefs the country was founded on. Having had that discussed many times, maybe it shouldn't be mentioned here. I plan on a relaxing weekend, far from this subject.
I agree.
The reason I don't want to press the envelope with this discussion because no matter how you look at it, it's a discriminatory and inherently racist topic.
I've read the Quran, and I have a few things to say about that part of the discussion.
I think that it's the way the Islamic culture in those countries has chosen to interpret the Quran, rather than the Quran alone, that creates such extremism.
Christianity has just been mellowed and de-fanged, largely due to the Catholic Church embodying Roman values and for a long time, venerating science and scholarship (though it fell short with Galileo, and began to reverse course when they realized science didn't always support them). Islam doesn't have such a tradition, which is what allowed the fundamentalists to hold sway. I believe that the Greco-Roman values/ideals that underpin our perspective on everything including religion, and not Christianity itself, are what have made the West a greater civilization than the others.
In reality, many of the books of the Quran, are actually the same books that one would find in the Bible or the Torah. They actually believe that the Bible and Torah are divinely inspired as well, but that they are "corrupted" in some places. Which is likely what all of them believe about each other.
There are many things in the Bible that, if taken to their extremes, would create a civilization as repressive as the Islamic ones. It's our values, and our perspectives, that keep it from being so. Many of our ceremonies are carried over from Roman times, even though the pagan origins are obscured, and they've been associated with Christianity.
We owe the Catholic Church a great debt for preserving Latin and many associated texts. For essentially, playing a large part in preserving Roman culture and many of their innovations, after the fall of the Roman empire. But I would not say that the religion itself is what has made us great, it's the fact that it has been used as a way of indirectly transmitting certain social values other than what is literally written, and giving a reason to adopt them.
I think that it's the way the Islamic culture in those countries has chosen to interpret the Quran, rather than the Quran alone, that creates such extremism.
Christianity has just been mellowed and de-fanged, largely due to the Catholic Church embodying Roman values and for a long time, venerating science and scholarship (though it fell short with Galileo, and began to reverse course when they realized science didn't always support them). Islam doesn't have such a tradition, which is what allowed the fundamentalists to hold sway. I believe that the Greco-Roman values/ideals that underpin our perspective on everything including religion, and not Christianity itself, are what have made the West a greater civilization than the others.
In reality, many of the books of the Quran, are actually the same books that one would find in the Bible or the Torah. They actually believe that the Bible and Torah are divinely inspired as well, but that they are "corrupted" in some places. Which is likely what all of them believe about each other.
There are many things in the Bible that, if taken to their extremes, would create a civilization as repressive as the Islamic ones. It's our values, and our perspectives, that keep it from being so. Many of our ceremonies are carried over from Roman times, even though the pagan origins are obscured, and they've been associated with Christianity.
We owe the Catholic Church a great debt for preserving Latin and many associated texts. For essentially, playing a large part in preserving Roman culture and many of their innovations, after the fall of the Roman empire. But I would not say that the religion itself is what has made us great, it's the fact that it has been used as a way of indirectly transmitting certain social values other than what is literally written, and giving a reason to adopt them.
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This really annoys me because
MUSLIMS DO NO EQUAL TERRORISTS.
By saying that Muslims shouldn't build a mosque near ground zero, you're essentially equating Islam with terrorism. That is moronic.
To me it doesn't matter if there is a mosque right next to ground zero because Muslims as a group were not responsible for 9/11. What I am ashamed of is the anti-muslim sentiment in this country.
MUSLIMS DO NO EQUAL TERRORISTS.
By saying that Muslims shouldn't build a mosque near ground zero, you're essentially equating Islam with terrorism. That is moronic.
To me it doesn't matter if there is a mosque right next to ground zero because Muslims as a group were not responsible for 9/11. What I am ashamed of is the anti-muslim sentiment in this country.
I know it's Cracked.com but....
http://www.cracked.com/blog/3-reasons-the-ground-zero-mosque-debate-makes-no-sense/
http://www.cracked.com/blog/3-reasons-the-ground-zero-mosque-debate-makes-no-sense/
Well, if that's true, then it seems that at some point the extremists hijacked a religion and culture that could have potentially produced something far better than what it degenerated into. Probably due to the destabilization of their culture.
In fact, thinking on this, I would link the change to their poverty and resulting ignorance. It seems that most civilizations, when prosperous, move away from religion. When times are bad, people move towards extreme religion. I've even seen this pattern in the European History. It could have something to do with human beings needing to be able to hope for something.
If they realize that their entire life is almost certain to hold nothing of promise but hard work and a struggle... they cling more tightly to rituals, arbitrary laws, and the promise of an afterlife.
I really did not know about the Islamic golden Age. I've only studied European and American History. This is fascinating, I had no idea that the Islamic people came up with so many things. It seems that they contributed to modern Science greatly before falling backward and ceasing to respect it.
It seems that we should view them as a cautionary tale of what can happen to a civilization if religion, especially the desire to enforce a single religion, gains too much power over people. It's why freedom of religion is a better policy than discriminating against other religions. It discourages a particular religion from becoming the basis on which a society operates.
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I Was Wrong on this - it is not even an Mosque
My minister brought up this very subject in an email to me last night, after discussing it with a Muslim cleric she knows. He sent her a video, which she sent to me, and after viewing it, I did some more research with sources I trust, ie. not the lame stream media. I have now changed my mind, on this issue ONLY.
Yes, Satya, I do change my views and admit when I am wrong, do you? I do not lie, and have read those books. Why so belligerant? Not articulate enough to express your views in a kind and tolerant way? You could have disagreed in a tactful and tolerant way, which would have been fine, but chose not to. Anti-semitic, perhaps? Are you Muslim? It's hard to tell since your profile is so empty of any facts. Was this on purpose?. I was wrong on this particular issue and am not afraid to admit it.
I am also very angry, which is not good for my health, so I will be leaving this forum, at least for awhile, to go back to helping those with my illness, who, in 15 years of posting, I have NEVER seen treat each other the way people do on this forum, despite the fact that they feel like utter crap and are slowly and horribly dying. This news should make you very happy. I thought coming here would be a nice break from all that misery, but I was wrong. The self-absorbed and spoiled young who've not been out in the world and not even supported themselves yet, but consider themselves experts on life, are not fun to be around. Being cleverly nasty to others does not make you cool. It just makes me sad for our country,that even basic manners are not taught anymore in our anything goes culture. This does not apply to most of you. Most of you are very intelligent and decent, but there is a large, very vocal minority here who are not. On any other forum I've been part of, they would have been banned long ago, but apparently it is acceptable to treat others that way here.
I am wrong on this issue, because it turns out the building in question is NOT even a Mosque, but just an Islamic center, open to the public, primarily used for basketball courts and a culinary school. It is also not across from Ground Zero, but about 5 blocks away, and the two cannot possibly be seen from each other. It will bring needed construction jobs to a bad area, where the building in question was sitting idle ever since 9/11, due to roof damage. The name "Cordoba House", which riled up so many people because it was the name of a Mosque Muslims made out of a conquered a Spanish Church, was removed. The name has been changed to "51 Park Place " so as not to offend, despite the fact that the Muslims lost to the Christians in Spain and that Mosque was turned back into a church in the 1300's, so the name was never the poke in the eye people thought it was. The only thing questionable about this is the careful hiding of where the money is coming from to build it. I wouldn't be surprised if it was our own govt.
A building actually being used as a Mosque does exist only two blocks from Ground Zero, and has been in operation since before the World Trade center was even built. Nobody is complaining about that.
This is just another media slanted frenzy, built up to once again reinforce the official 9/11 story, and distract us from looking at it. I believe, after much research, that the official story is total hogwash. But that is another topic entirely.
I will now be leaving this thread, since I feel totally dissed, and several people who agreed with me sent me PM's, instead of having the courage to post how they felt, because they were afraid of not being PC and being clobbered like I've been. I understand their fear, considering the way I've been dumped on here, but I despise political correctness, and this thread reeks of it.
I cannot believe someone actually defended child marriage!!! Yes, Muhammad married her at age 8 and did not consumate it until age 12. Is that all right with you? "It's just a cultural difference". NO it's not. It is morally WRONG. God help us all. What if that were your daughter? I suppose you think the Christian right rapes kids, stones women to death, and lops off heads of prisoners. Yeah, the one is as bad as the other, you say, but only if you are brain dead and brainwashed with that PC nonsense. Keep it up and you'd best start measuing yourselves for burkhas. The Muslim birth rate in Europe is so much higher than Europeans that Europe will be Muslim in 2 decades. I am glad I will die soon and not have to live in the world your naive idealism is creating.
I will miss the few friends I've made here and wish them well.
I'm outta here,
klutzo
My minister brought up this very subject in an email to me last night, after discussing it with a Muslim cleric she knows. He sent her a video, which she sent to me, and after viewing it, I did some more research with sources I trust, ie. not the lame stream media. I have now changed my mind, on this issue ONLY.
Yes, Satya, I do change my views and admit when I am wrong, do you? I do not lie, and have read those books. Why so belligerant? Not articulate enough to express your views in a kind and tolerant way? You could have disagreed in a tactful and tolerant way, which would have been fine, but chose not to. Anti-semitic, perhaps? Are you Muslim? It's hard to tell since your profile is so empty of any facts. Was this on purpose?. I was wrong on this particular issue and am not afraid to admit it.
I am also very angry, which is not good for my health, so I will be leaving this forum, at least for awhile, to go back to helping those with my illness, who, in 15 years of posting, I have NEVER seen treat each other the way people do on this forum, despite the fact that they feel like utter crap and are slowly and horribly dying. This news should make you very happy. I thought coming here would be a nice break from all that misery, but I was wrong. The self-absorbed and spoiled young who've not been out in the world and not even supported themselves yet, but consider themselves experts on life, are not fun to be around. Being cleverly nasty to others does not make you cool. It just makes me sad for our country,that even basic manners are not taught anymore in our anything goes culture. This does not apply to most of you. Most of you are very intelligent and decent, but there is a large, very vocal minority here who are not. On any other forum I've been part of, they would have been banned long ago, but apparently it is acceptable to treat others that way here.
I am wrong on this issue, because it turns out the building in question is NOT even a Mosque, but just an Islamic center, open to the public, primarily used for basketball courts and a culinary school. It is also not across from Ground Zero, but about 5 blocks away, and the two cannot possibly be seen from each other. It will bring needed construction jobs to a bad area, where the building in question was sitting idle ever since 9/11, due to roof damage. The name "Cordoba House", which riled up so many people because it was the name of a Mosque Muslims made out of a conquered a Spanish Church, was removed. The name has been changed to "51 Park Place " so as not to offend, despite the fact that the Muslims lost to the Christians in Spain and that Mosque was turned back into a church in the 1300's, so the name was never the poke in the eye people thought it was. The only thing questionable about this is the careful hiding of where the money is coming from to build it. I wouldn't be surprised if it was our own govt.
A building actually being used as a Mosque does exist only two blocks from Ground Zero, and has been in operation since before the World Trade center was even built. Nobody is complaining about that.
This is just another media slanted frenzy, built up to once again reinforce the official 9/11 story, and distract us from looking at it. I believe, after much research, that the official story is total hogwash. But that is another topic entirely.
I will now be leaving this thread, since I feel totally dissed, and several people who agreed with me sent me PM's, instead of having the courage to post how they felt, because they were afraid of not being PC and being clobbered like I've been. I understand their fear, considering the way I've been dumped on here, but I despise political correctness, and this thread reeks of it.
I cannot believe someone actually defended child marriage!!! Yes, Muhammad married her at age 8 and did not consumate it until age 12. Is that all right with you? "It's just a cultural difference". NO it's not. It is morally WRONG. God help us all. What if that were your daughter? I suppose you think the Christian right rapes kids, stones women to death, and lops off heads of prisoners. Yeah, the one is as bad as the other, you say, but only if you are brain dead and brainwashed with that PC nonsense. Keep it up and you'd best start measuing yourselves for burkhas. The Muslim birth rate in Europe is so much higher than Europeans that Europe will be Muslim in 2 decades. I am glad I will die soon and not have to live in the world your naive idealism is creating.
I will miss the few friends I've made here and wish them well.
I'm outta here,
klutzo
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Personally, I thought the boring part was the end of Exodus, which is basically a construction manual for the tabernacle. Leviticus, coincidentally, is evidence against the idea that the Quran "is nothing like the Bible." Circumcision, sexism, paranoid hygiene, homosexuality, slavery etc...
There is nothing inherent about Islam that makes it worse (or better) than Judaism or Christianity. Poverty and ignorance are far more relevant. If you want to talk about the 11th century, realize that the 11th century was part of the "Islamic Golden Age", while Europe was only beginning to organize well enough to launch crusades. Meanwhile, China, neither Christian nor Muslim nor Jewish, was reaching new cultural heights under the Song Dynasty. Europe, not the Near East or Far East, was the cultural backwater.
I would think his profile is so "empty of any facts" (as if that implies it's full of lies) because he's such an established member here there is really no need:
- Total Posts: 6,725
- Posts Per Day: 8.07
If I remember correctly, Satya is a social worker, who is financially independent of his parents. Unless you're not talking mostly about Satya.
I hope you're not talking about the 9/11 truth movement, for the sake of your legitimacy in argument...
I wouldn't want a child treated like that, but I also wouldn't want someone like Abraham representing a major religion, either:
in an alternate reality... said:
I live in the United States, which is less than 1% Muslim. Even in my predominantly Asian high school, I would estimate the rate was 5-10%.
This is a bit of a pickle of a topic, sadly it has been hijacked by racists who want to use it as an excuse to oppress those they dislike. Amongst those however I do believe there are at least a few people who are merely clouded by poor and emotional judgement. Around 3000 people were murdered in the name of a religion, and now that religion is setting up a spot nearby to where they were murdered. I believe that some genuinely do see it as a slap in the face. Of course these are not the same people, however people think ridiculous things when it comes to horrific events. I don't believe that is right, but I'm not going to hate those people for it.
Sadly the guy who wants to build the Centre seems like quite a decent fellow, must sicken him to be compared to such radical nutjobs. Despite being Muslim he is probably also a target of these same crazies due to the work he does for the American community. They have a right to build, and hopefully people come to their senses.
Sadly the guy who wants to build the Centre seems like quite a decent fellow, must sicken him to be compared to such radical nutjobs. Despite being Muslim he is probably also a target of these same crazies due to the work he does for the American community. They have a right to build, and hopefully people come to their senses.
I "defended" nothing. You called Mohammed a paedophile, I questioned that assertion by pointing out some of the reasons why it wouldn't necessarily apply in his case. Do I think grown men should sleep with girls of that age? No. Do I understand that the culture was completely different back then and that girls of that age simply weren't considered children, but women? Yes.
Didn't say anything of the sort. And back when Mohammed was kicking around the place Christians practised arranged marriage between those we would today consider children, they killed women for violating Christian religious/moral beliefs and values, and they regularly executed prisoners (as did most everybody back then. Prisons as we understand them were unheard of).
Unlikely.
I'm truly sorry you choose to feel that way.
I, for one, sent klutzo a PM regarding Leviticus and how difficult it was for me to read, also. I offered to read it followed by Hebrews, which we discussed. This person is no idiot. I do not feel this person to be a liar.
Matter of fact, I understand the sentiment, as I have felt it also. We all feel this now and then, do we not? My skin may be a bit thicker, as I have been down many roads in life. I do not like to see a person feel the need to walk away in this manner.
Truth is truth. Truth will be revealed in its proper time. For every thing there is a season, and a time for every purpose under the sun. I hold my tongue from any further discussion regarding this thread; a time to speak, and a time to refrain from speaking. A time to read, and a time to refrain from reading. Though I give my body to be burned, and have not love: I am nothing.
Matter of fact, I understand the sentiment, as I have felt it also. We all feel this now and then, do we not? My skin may be a bit thicker, as I have been down many roads in life. I do not like to see a person feel the need to walk away in this manner.
Truth is truth. Truth will be revealed in its proper time. For every thing there is a season, and a time for every purpose under the sun. I hold my tongue from any further discussion regarding this thread; a time to speak, and a time to refrain from speaking. A time to read, and a time to refrain from reading. Though I give my body to be burned, and have not love: I am nothing.