ESTJs

[Trifoilum]

..how to deal/communicate/get our point across/influence/just DEAL with them?

I believed they still CAN be influenced / understood, not always the overwhelming, all-destroying, all-blocking wall-slash-bulldozer which sole reaction is running away as far as possible.

views / opinion / comments / experiences / anything, please? >__<

 

[IndigoSensor]

My father is an ESTJ, and it has taken me many many years to learn how to "deal" with them. I do have to point out, that ESTJ's (and to a slightly lesser extent ENTJ's) can be unrelatable. They can get into very long term mindsets where they only believe they are correct and will reject any input at all from anyone else regardless of anything. If that is the case you simply need to walk away from them. That's just the nature of primary Te with no Fi counterweight.

As far as dealing with them, the best thing I have learned to do (with my father at least) is to point logical inconsistancies and simply say what is observed. If he disagrees then I simply shrug it off and say "well you just don't understand, I'm sorry" and it ends with that. The key is to not get emotionally invested or get visiblly upset. If you don't allow them to argue/debate and in some cases even discuss they can't do anything to you.

This has become rather easy for me, as my Te is quite strong (I actually wonder if I might be an INTJ).

 

[Peppermint]

Kepp your back straight, speak briskly and loudly, essentially assert yourself. Be brief, as concise as possible, concrete above all else, do not expect any sympathy whatsoever and don't bring up emotional matters, because you might as well be talking to a brick wall.

Be polite and respectful, never make the mistake of expecting understanding, prepare yourself for a lot of criticism, do not complain about anything, if your life or your beliefs are dear to you keep your idiosyncrasies to yourself. Do not ever talk in a vague, long winded, detailed manner, this will make them discount you as a blabbering fool, because if you have no immediately useful things to present they will just ignore you.

Or you can do what I do. Be a stubborn ass and get your jollies out of winding them up.

 

[VH]

My father is an ESTJ, and it has taken me many many years to learn how to "deal" with them. I do have to point out, that ESTJ's (and to a slightly lesser extent ENTJ's) can be unrelatable. They can get into very long term mindsets where they only believe they are correct and will reject any input at all from anyone else regardless of anything. If that is the case you simply need to walk away from them. That's just the nature of primary Te with no Fi counterweight.

As far as dealing with them, the best thing I have learned to do (with my father at least) is to point logical inconsistancies and simply say what is observed. If he disagrees then I simply shrug it off and say "well you just don't understand, I'm sorry" and it ends with that. The key is to not get emotionally invested or get visiblly upset. If you don't allow them to argue/debate and in some cases even discuss they can't do anything to you.

This has become rather easy for me, as my Te is quite strong (I actually wonder if I might be an INTJ).

I have an ESTJ mother, and this advice seems to be better designed for male ESTJs.

My advice for ESTJ females is to placate them and stay out of their way when they try to delegate and insist on how things should be. They won't compromise until everything has escalated into a complete showdown, and if they lose they will insist that you wronged them in the process and will resent you forever. There's little that our types can do to 'win' with them. They take such advantage of our need to please (without consciously meaning to), and cannot understand our need for harmony (because they're not wired to).

Kepp your back straight, speak briskly and loudly, essentially assert yourself. Be brief, as concise as possible, concrete above all else, do not expect any sympathy whatsoever and don't bring up emotional matters, because you might as well be talking to a brick wall.

Be polite and respectful, never make the mistake of expecting understanding, prepare yourself for a lot of criticism, do not complain about anything, if your life or your beliefs are dear to you keep your idiosyncrasies to yourself. Do not ever talk in a vague, long winded, detailed manner, this will make them discount you as a blabbering fool, because if you have no immediately useful things to present they will just ignore you.

Very apt advice.

Or you can do what I do. Be a stubborn ass and get your jollies out of winding them up.

However, this is hysterical. I've more than once given up on trying to be nice to them since it was not possible, and therefore chose the path of antagonism just to make the experience pleasant for myself. Heh, not proud of it, but it kept my sanity.

 

[WellNoWonder]

heh....this fits my father perfectly......

 

[klutzo]

I was married to an ESTJ the first time around. Can you imagine an INFJ married to an ESTJ? Even worse, he was a very big deal in our city, and a spoiled rotten rich kid besides. I stuck out his emotional distancing, refusal to engage in conflict resolution, and verbal abuse due to my not being perfect for only 1 1/2 yrs. and then left. Longest damn 1 1/2 yrs. of my life.

Since I've read that ESTJs make up 52% of the population, as opposed to us INFJs with our dinky less than 1%, advice on how to deal with them is very useful, so I appreciate what everyone is saying in this thread.

Thank you,
klutzo
(who still has no idea how to deal with them and is hoping to learn from you all)

 

[Faye]

I was married to an ESTJ the first time around. Can you imagine an INFJ married to an ESTJ? Even worse, he was a very big deal in our city, and a spoiled rotten rich kid besides. I stuck out his emotional distancing, refusal to engage in conflict resolution, and verbal abuse due to my not being perfect for only 1 1/2 yrs. and then left. Longest damn 1 1/2 yrs. of my life.

Since I've read that ESTJs make up 52% of the population, as opposed to us INFJs with our dinky less than 1%, advice on how to deal with them is very useful, so I appreciate what everyone is saying in this thread.

Thank you,
klutzo
(who still has no idea how to deal with them and is hoping to learn from you all)

That can't be right.

 

[under skies]

My best friend since age seven is an ESTJ (female).

My best advice is to treat whatever seems like a particularly strong opinion/judgment the way that you would treat a particularly sensitive person's emotions. My friend and I were discussing an actress from a movie she likes based on a book, and after I simply said that the actress did not portray the character the way I imagined her (but that it was understandable because of how subjectively characters from books can be interpreted), she literally stopped talking to me for about fifteen minutes. She really doesn't like it when people disagree with her. She usually brushes it off by reassuring herself, either out loud or inside her own head, that the person she is "debating" is not as qualified to judge as she is. If you confront her with cold, hard logic and actually prove her wrong when she really is not expecting it, she can get much more upset about it. She doesn't like the challenge, I don't think. She just wants to win and be right. She's very competitive.

I relate to that (her not liking the challenge) because I don't like the conflict and I don't want to challenge her knowing it will upset her all for nothing. I just listen to her quietly because I know she also tolerates my sensitive side and a ton of other things that she probably finds annoying.

I also try to emphasize the things we do agree on when we do occasionally have those kinds of discussions.



I almost went off on a tangent here, but the purpose of this thread is learning how to deal with ESTJs constructively, not listing their positive qualities. I don't want to make ESTJs sound bad because I obviously love my best friend dearly. She's a wonderful person, albeit often misunderstood for her lack of overt "feminine" softness.

 

[Madison]

There's little that our types can do to 'win' with them.

Yes! This.^

I don't waste my energy trying to gain their respect. Just my breathing seems to annoy my estj female friend. Perhaps what annoys her is the way I breathe- with too much sensitivity, emotion, vulnerability, femininity, and 'weakness.'

 

[Trifoilum]

..yes, the aforementioned ESTJ is my father too. >_>; Able businessman, competent boss, good protector, and a bad, bad, bad father. As for me (INFJ-formerly-INFP, so yeah), he has expressed his "I can't understand you (therefore you're wrong and sucks)" opinions many times recently. Me ? "You just don't want to understand."

It baffles me sometimes that ESTJ's shadow is INFP; generic stereotype of dreamers. >_>;

Kepp your back straight, speak briskly and loudly, essentially assert yourself. Be brief, as concise as possible, concrete above all else, do not expect any sympathy whatsoever and don't bring up emotional matters, because you might as well be talking to a brick wall.

Be polite and respectful, never make the mistake of expecting understanding, prepare yourself for a lot of criticism, do not complain about anything, if your life or your beliefs are dear to you keep your idiosyncrasies to yourself. Do not ever talk in a vague, long winded, detailed manner, this will make them discount you as a blabbering fool, because if you have no immediately useful things to present they will just ignore you.

Or you can do what I do. Be a stubborn ass and get your jollies out of winding them up.

Winding them up? XD;

Very good advice.....sounds hard. >_>;

 

[Poetic Justice]

Since I've read that ESTJs make up 52% of the population

Please don't let that be true.

Can anyone confirm or deny this?

 

[VH]

Since I've read that ESTJs make up 52% of the population

That can't be right.

Please don't let that be true.

Can anyone confirm or deny this?

I can do both. ESTJs are one of if not the most numerous of all the types, but they are hardly 52%... though they seem to think they're the majority. While no one will ever have perfectly accurate data until the world population is required to be brained scanned to determine type... here are some sample population estimates...

According to wikipedia (don't judge me) ESTJs make up 8-12% of the population.

mypersonality.info farms their own data and has come up with the following figures... ESTJ Population Total: 13%, Male: 16%, Female: 10%

Also, click on the 'Population' link and bookmark it, as you'll probably be interested in the overall population numbers they've farmed.

 

[Poetic Justice]

Whew!

*takes antidote to suicide pill*

 

[DefectiveCreative]

On the subject of type frequencies amongst the general population:

According to a 1964 American study conducted by David Keirsey and Marilyn Bates, the population is...

Extraversion 75%, Introversion 25%
Sensing 75%, iNtuition 25%
Thinking 50%, Feeling 50%
Judging 50%, Perceiving 50%

It should also be noted that for men, about 60% had a Thinking preference, while 60% of women had a Feeling preference.

Specific MB Population
SJ Guardians - 38%
SP Artisans - 36%
NF Idealists - 12%
NT Rationals - 12%

ESTJ - 13%
ESFJ - 13%
ESTP - 13%
ESFP - 13%
ISTJ - 6%
ISFJ - 6%
ISTP - 5%
ISFP - 5%
ENTJ - 5%
ENFJ - 5%
ENTP - 5%
ENFP - 5%
INTJ - 1%
INFJ - 1%
INTP - 1%
INFP - 1%

(Source is http://webspace.webring.com/people/cl/lifexplore/ , in their "Articles" section).

It baffles me sometimes that ESTJ's shadow is INFP; generic stereotype of dreamers. >_>;

Don't forget that there's a big difference between ESTJs who have developed their Ne and Fi, and those who haven't.

 

[Trifoilum]

Don't forget that there's a big difference between ESTJs who have developed their Ne and Fi, and those who haven't.

Can you please elaborate? I kinda understand in theory, but not in practice. I kinda get the impression that Te-dominant people (ENTJ and ESTJ) have their Fi abused and torn in the corner?

I can do both. ESTJs are one of if not the most numerous of all the types, but they are hardly 52%... though they seem to think they're the majority. While no one will ever have perfectly accurate data until the world population is required to be brained scanned to determine type... here are some sample population estimates...

Yes. I personally get this feeling that ESTJ is secretly the modern age basic everyman 'tough guy' "ideal" ? ENTJ as an ideal feels more like ruthless businessman, which has its flaws (especially to society).

Still, most numerous still sounds pretty ugh-inducing...

 

[DefectiveCreative]

Can you please elaborate? I kinda understand in theory, but not in practice. I kinda get the impression that Te-dominant people (ENTJ and ESTJ) have their Fi abused and torn in the corner?

The Personal Growth sections for ESTJs and ENTJs on PersonalityPage give some good insights into it:
http://www.personalitypage.com/html/ESTJ_per.html
http://www.personalitypage.com/html/ENTJ_per.html

In short though (as I understand it), in an under-developed E*TJ their primary Te runs roughshod over all their other cognitive functions - everything gets judged purely on external "objective" criteria. Things are only "good" or "bad", "right" or "wrong" (etc.), based on whether the E*TJ decides they work in the "real world" or not.

This means they have no time for things based on subjective personal values, which can lead them into all sorts of trouble when dealing with the needs and desires of other people.

In under-developed ESTJs their auxiliary Si gets hijacked by Te into only dealing with things that are familiar, that have been done before - which means that the unfamiliar and the new become things to be distrusted or even hated (if the ESTJ is particularly unhealthy/under-developed). In under-developed ENTJs their auxiliary Ni gets hijacked into thinking that the ENTJs vision/opinion is the only correct opinion, any others are just plain wrong.

The key for both of them is to fully develop their auxiliary functions beyond the confines and restrictions of their dominant/primary Te. This means that they need to learn to listen to all the information their Si/Ni gives them, not just the information that supports the judgements their Te has already made.

This helps them to realise that their way/the old familiar way isn't the only way, or even necessarily a good way. Because they so value things that actually work (primary Te) this realisation encourages them to look for a new way to do things, which in turn helps them recognise the value of other people's input, whether that be in the form of new ideas (Ne), physical experiences (Se), or personal values (Fi).

Even fully developed E*TJs will always have a preference for things that can be judged on external "objective" criteria (Te), but they are a lot more comfortable with new ideas/new experiences (Ne/Se), and are also guided in their judgements by a personal value system that places great emphasis on the subjective needs of the individual (Fi).

 

[Blind Bandit]

This makes me want to cry

ESTJ - 13%
ESFJ - 13%

Too much!!!!

 

[laurie]

My older sister is an ESTJ. I didn't really have much time around her as a child, 'cause she moved out when I was about... 11? I think.

Let's see... dealing with them? Just don't get in their way when they're trying to do something. It makes them very angry. Also, don't go into their personal space without permission (she yelled at me when I walked into her room when she didn't hear me knock. I was about 4 XD).
I guess you just have to be very careful to be exact, very polite and possibly psychic (lol, you know it's true).
My sis has been married to an ISTJ for 5 years now and they're still very happy (she's actually had more problems with giving in to him too much O.O) so I think they must be very committed types - and not as bad as people make them out to be. Just a little... uh, intolerant of certain things

Funnily enough, I seem to intimidate my sis a bit by being too quiet and polite. XD

 

[DoveAlexa]

I'd like to invite some nasty ES*J's to this thread to show how much their personality seems to only exist to hurt people. Though I fear they wouldn't care because "feelings don't matter".

 

[Blind Bandit]

I'd like to invite some nasty ES*J's to this thread to show how much their personality seems to only exist to hurt people. Though I fear they wouldn't care because "feelings don't matter".

I actually have a ESTJ friend who is awesome. But he is far removed from common ESTJ traits. I think he may have mistyped but who knows.