How sad.
What drew you together in the first place?
What made you decide to marry him?
ESTJs
- Thread starter Trifoilum
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What drew you together in the first place?
What made you decide to marry him?
About getting along with ESTJ's, it seems like it's just the badly developed ESTJ's we need to worry about, but then again, that goes for ALL types.
I have an idea, Te requires structured clean environments, so if they want to change you or your environment you just threaten to throw glitter at them.
Do you know how hard it is to get glitter off you? That'll make em think twice
.
I have an idea, Te requires structured clean environments, so if they want to change you or your environment you just threaten to throw glitter at them.
Do you know how hard it is to get glitter off you? That'll make em think twice
.
Do remember, though, that everyone is different. And maturity can come at any age, at any time.
I know two ESTJs, both females. I don't really like either one of them but one was my boss and we did *not* get along that well. It's not what was said between us; it what wasn't said.
Part of the issue you could have with your husband, @middle1:, is you're assuming something that isn't there and he's doing the same about you. You will literally need to spell it out for him, and explain why you behave the way you do. And he doesn't have any alternatives cooking in his head; no ulterior motives. He's flat out "what you see is what you get" (and it's not always a nice "get.").
The other ESTJ girl I know of is a very black and white thinker, who is extremely conservative. She rubs a lot of folks in my office the wrong way because she doesn't think before she speaks and she can be rude without realizing it. She's also married to an INFP. It's the weirdest relationship ever, and I feel sorry for her husband. A lot. But he takes it, or he tunes out...(un)fortunately she doesn't notice when he does either.
I know there are ESTJs who are well developed enough, though, so I refuse to lop them all in one category. I want to take people on face value first, not type. Doesn't mean they won't always rub me wrong, but I'll still give them the benefit of the doubt.
I know two ESTJs, both females. I don't really like either one of them but one was my boss and we did *not* get along that well. It's not what was said between us; it what wasn't said.
Part of the issue you could have with your husband, @middle1:, is you're assuming something that isn't there and he's doing the same about you. You will literally need to spell it out for him, and explain why you behave the way you do. And he doesn't have any alternatives cooking in his head; no ulterior motives. He's flat out "what you see is what you get" (and it's not always a nice "get.").
The other ESTJ girl I know of is a very black and white thinker, who is extremely conservative. She rubs a lot of folks in my office the wrong way because she doesn't think before she speaks and she can be rude without realizing it. She's also married to an INFP. It's the weirdest relationship ever, and I feel sorry for her husband. A lot. But he takes it, or he tunes out...(un)fortunately she doesn't notice when he does either.
I know there are ESTJs who are well developed enough, though, so I refuse to lop them all in one category. I want to take people on face value first, not type. Doesn't mean they won't always rub me wrong, but I'll still give them the benefit of the doubt.
Oh, I think she loves him to pieces. But she won't let him be himself. She plans everything for him, tells him what to do, who to talk to...etc. He's getting his Masters in counseling but he doesn't really want it - he's in school because she wants him in school.
So, I dunno...he's taking it, but.
- Nov 12, 2008
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ESTJ's are fine as long as you are not "below" them in some sort of way. That's when the trouble starts. This is why they make for less then ideal parents, particulary for a type who does not have primary or secondary Si.
I am always surprised to see threads like this. ESTJs seem to have a superbly horrible online rep everywhere you go. My best friend since age seven is an ESTJ, though. She's incredibly supportive, loyal, and helpful. She has her faults, of course, but all people do; everyone is a little too something.
Anyway, my best advice is to treat any ESTJ's opinions, particularly the ones they seem most passionate about, with a fairly decent amount of respect. My ESTJ friend is just as defensive about her opinions as I am about my emotions and moral values. Therefore, I don't slam her opinions even when she gets a little too arrogant about them. It can be funny to watch her become flustered when she is indeed proven wrong (which she never believes is possible, even after it's been, well, proven). I don't really think it's fair to her, though, as long as she continues to respect my sensitivity, which she always does.
It also helps, when I am feeling stubborn and do decide to engage in any sort of debate with her, to quickly find common ground and consistently emphasize what parts we agree on. If anything based on opinion is involved, I make sure to acknowledge the subjectivity of it and I don't speak in absolutes. I make sure she understands that I am speaking only for myself and from my own limited perspective. My best guess is that she thinks so much in black-and-white that it can otherwise be difficult for her to perceive right away that I'm not simply saying that she, specifically, is 100% wrong in all cases. I may be way off base here, but I believe she takes this kind of criticism so personally because she derives such a strong sense of self and self-esteem from her opinions (and how they compare to those of others as well as reality).
There isn't much else to do. If you don't like (most) ESTJs, you just don't like them. That being said, your best tool, I think, is patience (and lots of eye-rolling behind their backs, if it makes you feel better).
Disclaimer: I know there are healthy and unhealthy ESTJs and that all cases are different. I admit that I still don't entirely "get" her, but I thought I'd just put a little of my perspective from the past twelve years out there for the sake of being productive.
Anyway, my best advice is to treat any ESTJ's opinions, particularly the ones they seem most passionate about, with a fairly decent amount of respect. My ESTJ friend is just as defensive about her opinions as I am about my emotions and moral values. Therefore, I don't slam her opinions even when she gets a little too arrogant about them. It can be funny to watch her become flustered when she is indeed proven wrong (which she never believes is possible, even after it's been, well, proven). I don't really think it's fair to her, though, as long as she continues to respect my sensitivity, which she always does.
It also helps, when I am feeling stubborn and do decide to engage in any sort of debate with her, to quickly find common ground and consistently emphasize what parts we agree on. If anything based on opinion is involved, I make sure to acknowledge the subjectivity of it and I don't speak in absolutes. I make sure she understands that I am speaking only for myself and from my own limited perspective. My best guess is that she thinks so much in black-and-white that it can otherwise be difficult for her to perceive right away that I'm not simply saying that she, specifically, is 100% wrong in all cases. I may be way off base here, but I believe she takes this kind of criticism so personally because she derives such a strong sense of self and self-esteem from her opinions (and how they compare to those of others as well as reality).
There isn't much else to do. If you don't like (most) ESTJs, you just don't like them. That being said, your best tool, I think, is patience (and lots of eye-rolling behind their backs, if it makes you feel better).
Disclaimer: I know there are healthy and unhealthy ESTJs and that all cases are different. I admit that I still don't entirely "get" her, but I thought I'd just put a little of my perspective from the past twelve years out there for the sake of being productive.
I think my eye will hurt.
I wonder; as far as black-and-white morality goes, anyone ever tried saying to an ESTJ that "just because I disagree doesn't mean I'm right and you're wrong? And your way of living is completely not threatened nor will I run myself into destruction?" and does agreeing to disagree work?
And I remembered something; once in my nineteen years of living, I was successful in stripping and dissecting my dad's Te argument, and to my surprise he started expressing feelings. No, not emotions, but feelings. I begin to suspect that they (especially more mature ones) hid their Fi / values under all those...things. That doesn't make me wanting to rescue them from themselves, tho. -A-
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Could someone explain to me what a "healthy" ESTJ should look like then? Like while an unhealthy one will treat you badly for feeling and try and change your life, what would a healthy ESTJ do instead? Just nothing? I don't really see a flip side to the behaviour as being some wise and calm sage who just wishes to advise but not interfere. Thats a level of inner calm only obtained by a monk.
I have to chime in here after all the frustration with ESTJs that's been vented... I know some healthy ESTJs.
My chiropractor is one, and he's an amazing benevolent human being. The guy is quite opinionated and very much an ESTJ, but he's got much more developed Ne and Fi traits. He's also an amazing doctor. The guy can pinpoint my issues by just looking at the way I'm standing when I walk in the door. However, his Si and Te are really strong and he remembers everything about my condition and all the ups and downs I've had over the years.
He's also very much into Enneagram, so he's much more open to personality typing than most ESTJs. I haven't convinced him of the efficacy of MBTI yet, and to be honest, I doubt I ever will. He's got his system, and that's enough for him.
Next, one of the doctors at the college I worked at was an ESTJ who was in fact fascinated with MBTI, and actually brought it up with me one day when we were discussing new methods for vision therapy. I was really surprised when he told me he was an ESTJ because they're so unlikely to be into MBTI. He laughed and agreed, and admitted that it took someone proving the efficacy of it to him before he got on board... but once he did, he logged it into his paragidm. This guy also has a well developed Ne and Fi, and was the same sort of amazing person that my chiropractor is.
They're not all bad. Some of them are actually awesome.
But then, that's true of all of the types when they are fully developed. Take note INFJs... this means get to developing that Ti and Se!
My chiropractor is one, and he's an amazing benevolent human being. The guy is quite opinionated and very much an ESTJ, but he's got much more developed Ne and Fi traits. He's also an amazing doctor. The guy can pinpoint my issues by just looking at the way I'm standing when I walk in the door. However, his Si and Te are really strong and he remembers everything about my condition and all the ups and downs I've had over the years.
He's also very much into Enneagram, so he's much more open to personality typing than most ESTJs. I haven't convinced him of the efficacy of MBTI yet, and to be honest, I doubt I ever will. He's got his system, and that's enough for him.
Next, one of the doctors at the college I worked at was an ESTJ who was in fact fascinated with MBTI, and actually brought it up with me one day when we were discussing new methods for vision therapy. I was really surprised when he told me he was an ESTJ because they're so unlikely to be into MBTI. He laughed and agreed, and admitted that it took someone proving the efficacy of it to him before he got on board... but once he did, he logged it into his paragidm. This guy also has a well developed Ne and Fi, and was the same sort of amazing person that my chiropractor is.
They're not all bad. Some of them are actually awesome.
But then, that's true of all of the types when they are fully developed. Take note INFJs... this means get to developing that Ti and Se!
The problem with any personality is immaturity (at any age), imbalance and lack of insight. Just like any other type, an ESTJ can be a wonderfully effective person if he or she is mature, balanced, and has insight. Generally, these abilities come with age and experience, but some people are just naturally gifted from childhood. Not enough people of any type are like this, though, in my opinion.
My mother is an ESTJ. This is how I compare us:
We both have high expectations and high standards of others, and ourselves.
When someone doesn't meet her expectations, there is something wrong with them.
When someone doesn't meet my expectations, there is something wrong with me.
We both have high expectations and high standards of others, and ourselves.
When someone doesn't meet her expectations, there is something wrong with them.
When someone doesn't meet my expectations, there is something wrong with me.
Sorry, klutzo, I don't get on often. The way to calculate is do a "rolled yield" which means you would multiply each factor. So, .75*.75*.5*.5=.140625 or 14.1%. For an explanation:
http://www.qualitydigest.com/mar00/html/sixsigma.html
This is VERY good advice...the males in my family are like this. The females I know have a softer edge to them. I have never pushed them I can tell what they are capable of...as we all are.Kepp your back straight, speak briskly and loudly, essentially assert yourself. Be brief, as concise as possible, concrete above all else, do not expect any sympathy whatsoever and don't bring up emotional matters, because you might as well be talking to a brick wall.
Be polite and respectful, never make the mistake of expecting understanding, prepare yourself for a lot of criticism, do not complain about anything, if your life or your beliefs are dear to you keep your idiosyncrasies to yourself. Do not ever talk in a vague, long winded, detailed manner, this will make them discount you as a blabbering fool, because if you have no immediately useful things to present they will just ignore you.
Or you can do what I do. Be a stubborn ass and get your jollies out of winding them up.
My dad and about half of my other family members... My gf...
They are all pretty stable people and fairly considerate of others...just don't correct them or argue a point that is really not your business in the first place...then they will rise to the occasion. Sharing my heart gets me no where so we tend to talk about concrete matters and solutions. Over all, the ones in my family are honorable people...full of life...giving(if you deserve it...helpful...and they seem to attract each other...most of their friends are ESTJs too.
Yes. He was a very good guy though...just...very controling...very little sweetness.