5w4 - The Iconoclast | Page 2 | INFJ Forum

5w4 - The Iconoclast

Discussion in 'Enneagram' started by Korg, Dec 17, 2010.

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  1. not sure

    On Holiday

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    Although I am a 5, 5w4 doesn't resonate with me except for this:

    For this subtype, beauty is one of the indications of truth, because the order which beauty represents is a confirmation of the objective rightness of an idea.

    Beauty for me is simplicity or smooth integration.
     
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  2. AhSver

    AhSver ASHVER
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    I scored as a 5w4 as well. Seems like there are quite a bit of us.. But I never really cared to look much into it.

    This. Very good.
     
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  3. gps

    gps Regular Poster

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    I became aware of Riso's notion of the Enneagram in the late 80's and early 90's.
    I've tested as 5w4 from the beginning and when stressed have sometimes tested as 4w5.

    I've been aware of my iconoclasm even longer, so when I read the descriptions the hair stood up on the back of my neck ... the same way that it did when I read the results of the Keirsey Temperament sorter which outed me as an INTP.

    The healthiest transformation which has occurred thus far has resulted from removing either-or from iconoclastic destruction Versus Artistic Creation.
    I've found ways to Iconoclastically disassemble the would-be sacred into parts which can be reassembled into something more practical, artistic, or simply less obnoxious.
    Not that I always do, mind you.
    It's kinda magical when it happens though.

    In short ... hell ya, I can and do relate with 5w4 Iconoclasm.
     
  4. theTurtle

    theTurtle Newbie

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    Wow. That is exactly my game. I thought I was special ;) The exception for me is that I rarely 'rehearse' out loud; still, the great majority of my conversations are mapped-out just as you've described. The metaphor of the actor rings very true, and acting has always been second-nature to me as a result of these 'role-rehearsing' habits. Moreover, at times I have felt as though I've gone too far; as though I've become only what my immediate audience wants me to become. But then I view these roles as merely a tool for conveying a deeper meaning and that, like any good bit of acting, if it's engaging and it comes from someplace honest, it must be worth hearing.

    (I find balance in the pursuit of spontaneous conversation when I've not had time to rehearse or predict all the possible outcomes; but for any important bit of business, I absolutely agree.)

    I too work in education. When I was in high school the convergence of the shy introversion of the 5 and the depressiveness of the 4 often kept me in an impossible funk. When I learned to flip that and began to enjoy social interaction and responsibility (humor did wonders for me as well), and to apply all of the stored-up theories in my head to real-world situations, I finally ditched my tendencies toward depression. Working at a private school seems to be a good niche for me. Being recognized for my intellect appeases my 5-ness, while being regarded as 'unique' or 'creative' pleases my 4 wing to no end.

    While my iconoclastic tendencies are by no means aggressive or even obvious, I absolutely identify with the search for the elogant beauty of simplicity, while maintaining an astute appreciation for subtlety and an ultimatum of correctness. Not that I'm a master of simplicity, but an admirer of it for sure.

    It's fascinating to find other people with such strikingly similar idiosyncrocies!
     
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  5. Owfin

    Owfin Newbie

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    Of 5,6, and 7 I relate to 5 the least, and of 2,3, and 4 I relate to 4 the least, so together they make a rather interesting combination.
     
  6. Icon152

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    I am curious to know how confirmed 5w4 types have faired through life.

    I live alone and virtually always have, never really had normal girlfriends, I feel like I have spent my life in my head, and often this is ok because my mind can be rich and interesting, always seeking to understand, but sometimes I can feel like a ghost, without a 'real life', or family, or responsibilities, or life events to remember.

    I wonder if a genuine 5w4 ever escaped this, or found a solution, to the relentless 'aloneness', this ghost like quality to this particular double withdrawn type ...
     
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  7. LucyJr

    LucyJr Well-known member

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    Perfect. Now I'll never doubt that I am a 5x4 ever. Very accurate description.
     
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  8. Alayna West

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    This is me to a T.
     
  9. bonfire

    bonfire Community Member

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    I do that all the time! :laughing: Sometimes I even argued with myself, lol. I love to do that because I needed an outsider's P.O.V., which I can't find one in real life who wouldn't get pissed at me for being so argumentative. I have to make sure no one's around to listen to it though, lol.
     
  10. bonfire

    bonfire Community Member

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    I feel you. I don't know if I'm qualified to give an advice but I think 5s should try to get away from the void of life by looking at our deprivation of feelings as a fixation, not a permanent or inborn state. Everyone needs love, connection and understanding, but to 5s, we learned to hide these needs and replaced them with the intense search for knowledge to survive, but in the end, it would still feel empty because knowledge can't fill the gaps left by love. You may need to address the problem and look into the parts of your life when you feel it's been taken, made you disappoint, and lost hope, etc. I recommend the book by Sandra Maitri; The Spiritual Dimension of The Enneagram. I find it really helpful and profound.
     
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  11. slant

    slant Ruby Adoraboobie

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    I am "recovering". I say it that way because I think a lot of the reason my personality in particular is this way is because of the way I was raised and developing an fearful avoidant attachment style.

    Both of my parents were extremely emotionally abusive and neglectful, the only time I would experience affection would be if I was catering to their moods and needs and pushing my own aside. Add onto that my intelligence and curiosity it made me isolated from my peers during school.

    The quest for knowledge and learning became my only friend and I soon was so far socially removed that I no longer understood how to socialize or saw the value in it. I knew I was lonely and desperately craved love and attention from other people, but every time in the past I had attempted to connect something would go wrong and I would retreat in massive fear to prevent further hurt.

    I've been through this cycle at least three times in my adult life - I am currently on round three and hoping it'll be successful and that I will not retreat this time. It's a real balancing act because the more I'm around likeminded people who I get love and attention from, the better I feel, but the less time I have to process my own feelings and wants the more "dead in the water" I feel.

    I really like this song by Fountains of Wayne, "Sink to the bottom". Music and exploring it has been a great way to explore my feelings, I realized that it impacted my mood and that much of the music I enjoyed was because it was telling the story of what I felt inside and that I would often subconsciously gravitate to different music depending on my mood. It's become a great tool to figure out where I am at emotionally when I can't quite tell, and I can sometimes use it to shift my mood if I want to feel a particular way- which is usually joyful.

    "
    Cars on the highway, planes in the air
    Everyone else is going somewhere
    But I'm going nowhere, getting there too
    I might as well just sink down with you
    I want to sink to the bottom with you"

    Really relate to those lyrics and they seem to describe my general feeling in life.. that I am sort of aimless wandering around, but I would rather "sink to the bottom" with other people I care about than wander alone seeking some greater meaning.

    Lots of things have had to happen for me to progress, though. I had to cut off all of my escape mechanisms because they were holding me back. Television, video games, YouTube, anything that I had used to feel like I was living but behind a screen I had to get rid of.

    Once you do that, you'll finally begin to experience boredom again and you will find the desire to learn insatiable so you will naturally begin to do things and go out in the world to seek a remedy for boredom.

    The important aspect is: making sure you are always working on some sort of project even if on some level it doesn't matter to you. The apathy is an underlying hum in everything I do, but to not work on projects and keep busy I am never truly happy. Secondly, find a community where you belong, for me it was open mics, and regularly go there even when you don't feel like it. You can sit in the corner and pout if you want. Sometimes we block connection out of overthinking... So doing becomes really important. Schedule alone time. Schedule social time. Stick to the schedule. Eventually you will find a rhythm to it and realize that socializing isn't so bad, it's beneficial to you in a lot of ways, and you're better off doing this.

    A good way to make social connections for our personality is to lean into our strengths' find a way to invite other people to collaborate on your projects. What I have found is that most of the time the people I invite because I want to get to know them better accept and we don't ever end up working on the project - we both just wanted to know each other and didn't know how to do it any other way.

    I still feel misunderstood, have a hard time regulating my emotions, and have not found romantic intimacy yet. But I've only been undergoing these changes for about a year now. What you have to understand is part of the reason it's so difficult for us to find romantic partners is because we do tend to self isolate and are generally unwilling to be vulnerable with others; this greatly reduces our opportunities. By regularly engaging in the world even if we have to force ourselves we encounter a broader range of people and increase the odds. Finding a way to express yourself and show vulnerability is also vital in signalling for the type of people you want to meet; so you have to be willing to come out of you cage enough that others can identify you. Do both of these things and I think it's statically impossible you won't find someone eventually. We are all very smart, loving, interesting people, and there are others out there who we can relate to, the problem often boils down to how willing we are to go out of our comfort zone to seek it.
     
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