5w4 - The Iconoclast | INFJ Forum

5w4 - The Iconoclast

Discussion in 'Enneagram' started by Korg, Dec 17, 2010.

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  1. Korg

    Korg ▄ ▄

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    How many people here can relate to this? I certainly can. I've definitely been steeped in the unhealthy end of the spectrum for sure. Currently, I'd say I'm healthy with occasional dips into average. What about you?






    The Five with a Four-Wing: "The Iconoclast"

    The traits of the Five and those of the Four reinforce each other in many ways. Both Five and Four are withdrawn types: they turn to the inner world of their imagination to defend their egos and to reinforce their sense of self. They both feel that something essential in themselves must be found before they can live their lives completely. Fives lack the confidence to act, and Fours lack a strong, stable sense of identity. Thus, Fives with a Four-wing have difficulty connecting with others and staying grounded. People of this subtype are more emotional and introverted than Fives with a Six-wing, althrough paradoxically, they tend to be more sociable than the other subtype. As a result of their Four component, they are also more interested in the personal and intrapsychic. The two types also have some significant differences in their approach. Fives are cerebral, holding experience at arm's length, while Fours internalize everything to intensify their feelings. Despite these differences--or because of them--these two personality types make one of the richest subtypes, combining possibilities for outstanding artistic as well as intellectual achievement.

    Notewothy examples of this subtype include Albert Einstein, Werner Heisenburg, Friedrich Nietzsche, Georgia O'Keeffe, John Cage, John Lennon, k. d. lang, Laurie Anderson, James Joyce, Emily Dickinson, Stanley Kubrick, David Lynch, Buster Keaton, Gary Larson, Stephen King, Tim Burton, Clive Barker, Franz Kafka, Umberto Eco, Jean-Paul Sartre, Oriana Fallaci, Glenn Gould, Peter Serkin, Hannah Arendt, Kurt Cobain, and Vincent van Gogh.

    In healthy people of this subtype, we find the union of intuition and knowledge, sensitivity and insight, aesthetic appreciation and intellectual endowments. Fives with a Four-wing are likely to be involved in the arts as writers, directors, designers, musicians, composers, choreographers, and so forth. The subtype has been somewhat overlooked in many descriptions of Fives because they do not fit the stereotype of the academic/scientific Five (the Five with a Six-wing). This subtype is more synthetic in its thinking, pulling things together and seeking out new ways of looking at things, Also, Fives with a Four-wing tend to utilize their imaginations more than the analytic, systematic parts of the mind which are more the domain of the other subtype. If they are involved in science, Fives with a Four-wing are drawn to those areas in which there is less emphasis on experimentation and data collection than on intuition and comprehensive vision. This subtype is particularly aware of--and on the lookout for--the beauty in a mathematical formula, for example. For this subtype, beauty is one of the indications of truth, because the order which beauty represents is a confirmation of the objective rightness of an idea. One of the foremost strengths of healthy Fives with a Four-wing lies precisely in their intuition, since intuition helps them uncover areas of knowledge where their conscious thoughts have not yet ventured. The Four-wing adds a desire to find a unique, personal vision to the curiosity and perceptiveness of the Five, and the result is a propensity to "tinker" with familiar forms until they become something almost unrecognizable. In talented Fives with a Four-wing this can lead to startling innovations in their chosen fields of endeavor.

    In Average Fives with a Four-wing, the Four-wing adds emotional depth, but causes difficulties in sustaining efforts and in working with others. Fives with a Four-wing are more independent than Fives with a Six-wing and resist having structures and deadlines imposed on them. There can be an off-putting detachment from the environment, both because they are involved in their thoughts and because they are introverted and emotionally self-absorbed. Analytic powers may be used to keep people at arm's length rather than to understand them more deeply. Emotionally delicate, people of this subtype can be moody and hypersensitive to criticism, particularly regarding the value of their work or ideas, since this impinges directly upon self-esteem. Both component types tend to withdraw from people and be reclusive. They can be highly creative and imaginative, envisioning alternate realities in great detail, but can get lost in their own cerebral landscapes. The Four-wing gives a propensity to fantasizing, but with the Five with the Four-wing, the subject matter tends toward the surreal and fantastic rather than the romantic. Individuals of this subtype can become highly impractical, spending most of their time reading, playing intellectual games, or specializing in trivia. There is often an attraction to dark, forbidden subject matter or to any way of self-expression which would disturb or upset others. Some Fives with a Four-wing become fascinated with the macabre and the horrific. As they become more impractical and fearful about their possibilities in life, one typical solution is to find emotional solace in various forms of self-indulgence--in alcohol, drugs, or sexual escapades.

    Unhealthy persons of this subtype may fall prey to debilitating depressions yet be disturbed by aggressive impulses. Envy of others mixes with contempt for them; the desire to isolate the self from the world mixes with regret that it must be so. Intellectual conflicts make their emotional lives seem hopeless, while their emotional conflicts make intellectual work difficult to sustain. Moreover, if this subtype becomes neurotic, it is one of the most alienated of all of the personality types: profoundly hopeless, nihilistic, self-inhibiting, isolated from others, and full of self-hatred. Unhealthy Fives with a Four-wing retreat into a very bleak, minimal existence, attempting to cut off from all needs. The self-rejection and dispair of the Four combines with the cynical nihilism of the Five to create a worldview that is relentlessly negative and terrifying. Social isolation, addiction, and chronic depression are common. Suicide is a real possibility.
     
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  2. NeverAmI

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    That is a really good description. Bold is very accurate.
     
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  3. Blind Bandit

    Blind Bandit Blind Man Being Lead to Nowhere
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    The average description and some of the unhealthy really fit me. Sadly not enough of the normal 5w4 fits me yet. Which tells me I've got a long way to go. But ya that was spooky accurate.
     
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  4. NeverAmI

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    Five with four-wing

    Average 5/4 is the prototype personality for research scientists.
    Analytical and detached from their emotions, but passionate about beauty
    and truth, they want to find the ultimate, simple explanation for
    everything. Their intellectual fiveness makes them likely to engage in
    long, professorial monologues, while their four-wing gives them a shy
    self-consciousness. Unlike the more depressive 4/5, they are likely to have
    a generally optimistic view, although they can get depressed if they become
    overwhelmed by the world's demands. 5/4s are usually less interested in
    social interactions than the more other-dependent 5/6.

    Balanced 5/4 is more able to participate in life. When the fiveish desire
    to withdraw and sort things out is no longer compulsive, then the
    consciously chosen time alone becomes a tool for understanding the world,
    rather than an entrapping habit. The fourish passion for beauty emerges as
    the conscious result of harnessing the emotions rather than being their
    slave. Healthy 5/4s begin to deeply understand the simple, elegant way that
    the awesome complexity of the world emerges from fundamental principles.
    They find great joy in watching and learning.

    When the perception of five and the passion of four are augmented by
    eight's power and leadership, plus one's intuitive wisdom, clear
    comprehensions can be transmitted to others. Very balanced 5/4s can be
    tremendously creative teachers of How The World Works, who explain things
    with clean, elegant sentences. Yet for all its simple clarity, their
    teaching carries with it a profound appreciation for the subtle beauty of
    Creation. (Come with me on a journey of discovery. Let's look together at
    the awsome profundity of Nature and Consciousness.)

    Unbalanced 5/4 gets lost in the details. The compulsive analysis of five
    can lead to elaborate pseudo-logical constructions designed to explain
    everything. The four-wing's emotionality adds a flavor of dramatic
    hopelessness. Others Simply Do Not Understand. No one could understand. So
    5/4 retreats to a place of safety, hoping to escape from view, continuing
    to uncover the truth. There is little to no social involvement.

    In the extreme, the panic and scattered mania of seven combine with twoish
    self-congratulatory hysteria. In a seeming reversal, 5/4 can come back into
    the world, awkward and excitable, ready to bolt but equally ready to
    passionately defend a bizarre, baroque fantasy world. As inner tension
    builds, schizoid withdrawal from reality becomes more and more likely. The
    end result is a kind of terrified fugue, completely cut off from reality.
    The only escape from the constant overwhelming chaos is inward.

    5/4 is generally not much into appearance. Reasonable, ordinary clothing,
    not too bold. Comfort is quite important. Thick glasses are common
     
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  5. Nixie

    Nixie Resurrected

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    I'm curious about how you would describe being "emotionally self-absorbed" as 5/4. Does it mean selfish to you? Does it mean unable to see the importance of others emotions? Or does it mean you get caught up in your own emtions to the distraction of all else?

    I haven't seen a description of 5/4 before and found that turn of phrase curious.
     
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  6. Jonathan

    Jonathan Community Member

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    I'm a 4w.5, and the emotionally self-absorbed description is there for me too. I think it means that you are so introspective and aware of your emotions that you sometimes lose sight of the outside world. Basically, it's when you get consumed within your own thoughts and feelings (not necessarily in a selfish way). This often describes me.
     
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  7. NeverAmI

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    Emotionally self-absorbed, to me, means being overwhelmed by emotions and being unable to deal with your own let alone those of someone else. The 5w4 tries, consciously or unconsciously, to cater to their own emotional impulses simply to reign them in, or keep them at bay. Mindless response to emotions can be very unhealthy, but the 5w4 that would be mindful, and attempt to reign those emotions in and find out the cause can eventually get over such self-absorption. This means that until those are overcome, the personal emotional state will consistently overshadow those of others.
     
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  8. bagelriffic

    bagelriffic Community Member

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    being a 5w4 i think this depends on how strong a 5's 4 wing is. earlier in my own experience i did in fact have emotional feelings, but i looked to dissolve them in search of objectivity. this often left me feeling emotionally dry inside. like i said i felt emotions, but did my best to take action against allowing them to influence my thoughts (which they inevitably did anyway) in hopes of seeing the world objectively (which only gave the illusion of objectivity). i mean it got to a point i could even look back on any given memory (that may have been painful/influential with it happened) and recite it for someone as if i were describing the weather with little emotions felt or attached to it, despite its developmental significance.

    selfish is definitley influential for average 5's. their passion being greed that is centered around themselves and is the fundamental fixation their personality revolves around. bc of the lack of ability to expand, often holding on to what we have; in some ways avg to unhealthy 5's could be described as energy hoarders. i never felt like i couldn't see others emotions, but i would often pretend i didn't. not bc i was caught in my own, but bc i was trying to treat the situation as objectively as possible.. i think anyway i'm not sure why i did that exactly.

    see the interesting thing about this type i think is that both of its numbers are centered around isolation. even if a 5 is more in touch and open to their emotional experiences than average, they simply become more (might be considered healthier than average) 4ish with their mentality, unless they can accept aggression/giving as beneficial or necessary characteristics. allowing others to come and go out of their lives unimpeded and accepted would be a step in the right direction as would most 8ish qualities.
     
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  9. Raccoon Love

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    The description is a good fit for me. I have always gotten 4w5 or 5w4 in most enneagram tests.
     
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  10. OP
    Korg

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    For the most part, I'm in agreement with Jonathan. It's this idea that one is so preoccupied with their own emotional state in some way (understanding it, neutralizing it, whatever) that they are unable to see how said state affects others or even how the impetus that triggered the state might have affected others in their own particular way.

    Say, for example, a child takes a nasty fall and bangs his head on the sidewalk. An emotionally self-absorbed 5w4 may feel something and then prioritize looking inward to understand what that something is or to manage the distress it causes instead of considering the child or anyone in that child's group. That's not to say they go into some catatonic, introspective trance - just that they aren't as available to others because they are devoting most of their mental energy to themselves.

    That's how I understand it, anyway.
     
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  11. Nixie

    Nixie Resurrected

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    Thanks. I found all your answers interesting. I type as a 1w2 and I think that emotionally reserved fits better for me. I understand the basic issue with a 1 type is anger and the need to control the anger.

    I find that I am not emotionally absorbed but find that my more analytical NT self will attempt to understand my emotions which borders being absorbed. I think it is the difference between the T and the F that makes it much less emotionally charged for me.
     
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  12. Satya

    Satya C'est la vie
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    I go back and forth between 5w4 and 4w5. I like both descriptions. Both indicate that I need to develop my creative side which has been sorely lacking now for a number of years.
     
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  13. Gaze

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    5w4 here, and I agree with most of the description in the first post.

    Yeah, pretty much.

    I tried doing this for a while, and in some cases it worked, and in others not so much. But i later realized that i could talk about my emotional state objectively.

    I do this sometimes as well, with friends. I recognize their emotions but focus instead on objective understanding of the situation they're describing instead of their feelings about it because sometimes I can get too easily caught up in someone else's emotions pretty quickly if i'm sympathetic towards them.

    Pretty accurate. Struggle with this quite a bit, and still trying to work this out.
     
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  14. Peppermint

    On Holiday

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    [MENTION=1425]Korg[/MENTION]; Did you ever read about type 8? "Losing my autonomy. I don't want to be controlled, told what to do or be defined by someone else." is actually a basic fear of the type 8 in enneagram.

    http://www.ocean-moonshine.net/e142...er_op=view_page&PAGE_id=11&MMN_position=35:35

     
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  15. OP
    Korg

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    Thank you for posting that, Peppermint. And, yes, I've read about type eight before and relate to a lot of it. Especially these parts:

    Where I really differ from the typical eight, however, is in the social sphere and general desire to expand my range of influence. I'm not an extrovert and I'll just go down my own path rather than try to conform the world to my wants. Really, I don't want anyone to follow my way, I just want them get the fuck out of my way without questioning me or trying to engage me as I walk by.

    To be honest, I couldn't care less about most people except for a very select few that I like and then I take them under my wing and really look out for them and ensure they are protected and safe. But if they do not inspire that in me, I find their presence in my life tolerable at best. That doesn't sound very eight to me. Maybe I'm just an extremely driven and independent five.

    I'm not sure. Anyway, there is definitely a lot I can relate to in the description but some of the fundamental points are not me.
     
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  16. Trifoilum

    Trifoilum find wisdom, build hope.

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    A friend of mine is an ISFP who typed herself as 5w4.
    ...And she's very prone to becoming unhealthy. I wonder within the context of Enneagram, how would a 5w4 become more healthier?

    oh also, to OP, you looks more 8 than 5 to me. I don't know why...
     
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    Last edited: Jan 23, 2011
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  17. efromm

    efromm Hiding In My Shell...
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    I am a 5w4. And I can relate to the bad 5. I understand why they would feel alone and have contempt for the world. When you see the world for what it is. It is hard too love it or even want to be a part of it at times. Seeing that people never change and you want too. Then you step back into the world forgive everyone and then guess what? Ya get screwed again it seems. I have found that by realizing that there has to be opposing forces in life makes it easier to just let life be what it is. The entire universe is this way. At times you can be doing what you perceive as good and it can really be very bad. We never know what we are going to set in motion in life. Life in the end is just a best guess. And decisions made at times have to be made because of stress. Or the situations that the outside world creates.

    So how can anyone know what they have done? Even if you tell them how bad your hurt there is no way they can know your pain completely. People focus too much on their pain. If you want to resolve anything you have to be willing to give in. To surrender your pain and stop. Everything we feel in this life is up to us to some degree. I am returning to my youthful way of just observing the world and then speaking my own truth.
     
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  18. DefectiveCreative

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    http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/5growth.asp
     
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  19. problemz

    problemz Community Member

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    I relate to the 5/4 now, but when I was younger I was more of a 4/3. I'm 55 now, college teacher with interest in humor and aesthetics. When I was younger I was much more lost, constantly depressed. Figured out that humor would burst the bondages that kept me locked up in bad moods. Also, lots of hard exercise. Two hours a day of hard exercise and I'm pretty good. I think if I had to sit around too long I would go back into a great dark mood again, so I'm probably a four underneath. Analyzing stuff also takes me out of my moodiness, so I like studies of various kinds, and want it to be difficult and engrossing. Still cry at the drop of a cat.

    I think the true 5s are less able to be with other people. I can pal around and pretend to be popular and know hundreds of people. But I'm holding my breath for when I can be by myself again. That's fivish, too, I guess. Fives seem to be socially clueless. I see it as a necessary mode of defense to pretend to be like others, to know the sports scores, to be able to discuss the weather, to have a political line that is not too far out of the mainstream, etc.
     
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  20. problemz

    problemz Community Member

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    Another funny thing is that I still talk to myself all the time. Basically I am rehearsing roles to come in a way like an actor might. I play my role and imagine all the possible permutations of an answer. I often walk at night doing this, and sometimes come across someone (I live in a rural area where houses are sparse, but occasionally come across a dog walker or a child coming home from his friend's house) and if they see me talking to myself they get a bit worried. But I remember when I was four or five all my friends stopped talking to themselves. I went right on doing in. I love to hear my voice. This kind of rehearsal is almost very important for me, as it helps me to imagine how people will react, and helps me get the role just right. If I want humor I can practice that, or if I just want to be taken seriously I can practice that. Sometimes it takes me three hours or more to prepare for a five-minute conversation with a dean or a set of students. It's time-consuming but it works at least for me.
     
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