What Really Is | Page 2 | INFJ Forum

What Really Is

ZenCat said:
Me too.

But I don't feel like I was given a choice.
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Yeah, you don't really have a choice when you see things others don't. Going back to the Matrix, it's like we see the Matrix code while inside it. We can still function/interact like everyone else, but we also can't escape the fact that there's so much fake, so much illusion out there...
 
This in depth question somehow gives me the chills.
I feel as if I have allready taken the red pill as well rather deviously, creeping up at me. As I am the curious person I am constantly asking what if or why, if I was granted the choice it would have been the red pill. It wouldprobably have haunted me and been devistating. I think that by taking the red pill my NF would turn ST.
It is a tought question really, right now I'm even battling myself considering the blue pill.
 
Whose view of reality would the red pill reveal?

I think depending on one's beliefs, maybe the red pill would become the blue pill (save the ignorance) once taken.
 
Soulful said:
Whose view of reality would the red pill reveal?

I think depending on one's beliefs, maybe the red pill would become the blue pill (save the ignorance) once taken.
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Interesting thought. I guess so for some.
 
surely the red pill would just give you the ability to comprehend actual reality and strip away your human perceptions. i would go red pill all the way baby
 
Red pill for me too. From what I have read about the toltecs they believed that we are dreaming and that our life is made up of all the dreams around us. Including the dreams of others.
 
If actually given a choice, I would pick the red pill. If this world is actually an illusion, used to control us, and to use our energy to power our machine overlords, then it doesn't really matter what we thought our world was like. What matters is what it actually is. I would rather die on my feet, in the muck and filth of reality, fighting to free my race, than to live on my knees in some dream world.

As for the only one who matters being Neo, I disagree. It took thousands of people over a hundred years to get to the point where Neo could step in and do his thing. Without them, he wouldn't have had a job.
 
heres the thing.
Even if we know what is real and we take the red pill and gain all that knowledge, the knowledge would be useless unless we use the knowledge. Just like in the matrix. Imagine neo took the red pill but just went ok i took the pill, I understand now and all this sucks and just sat there "emo"ing. That would not be useful anyway whatsoever. Thus, I feel that it is not whether we take the red pill or the blue pill, but what we do with what we know that really makes a difference ultimately. I'd take the red pill by the way :D . Knowledge just rocks. :D
 
Grey Wolf said:
Imagine neo took the red pill but just went ok i took the pill, I understand now and all this sucks and just sat there "emo"ing. That would not be useful anyway whatsoever.
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Well, that's what Cypher did. And we all know how that turned out!
 
For me, its neither a red pill or a blue pill; its a purple pill. I love The Matrix, but I don't like Cartesian dualism (or Platonic dualism).

But I'd say that as an INFJ, you are very prone to taking the red pill without realizing it, and once you do, you can't go back.

"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one"- Albert Einstein.

We wish we could split the world into truth and lies, but these both depend upon and exist because of each other. In actuality, the truth is the lie.
 
in reality, taking the red pill can have the long term effect of taking five blue pills mixed with alcohol :)
 
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Dragon said:
We wish we could split the world into truth and lies, but these both depend upon and exist because of each other. In actuality, the truth is the lie.
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How do you figure that? "If a man says what is of what is, or what is not of what is not, he speaks the truth. If a man says what is not of what is, or what is of what is not, he does not speak the truth." (I read that somewhere, forget where. Truth defined in words of 1 syllable!) How is the truth a lie? Sure, our truth is at best incomplete, but that doesn't make it wrong. Just not quite whole. If truth were a lie, then nothing would be right or wrong, true or false. A study of mathematics or any other reproduceable science will show that truth is always true.
 
Milon said:
How do you figure that? "If a man says what is of what is, or what is not of what is not, he speaks the truth. If a man says what is not of what is, or what is of what is not, he does not speak the truth." (I read that somewhere, forget where. Truth defined in words of 1 syllable!) How is the truth a lie? Sure, our truth is at best incomplete, but that doesn't make it wrong. Just not quite whole. If truth were a lie, then nothing would be right or wrong, true or false. A study of mathematics or any other reproduceable science will show that truth is always true.
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"The truth is subjective" (Soren Kierkegaard).

Nothing is right or wrong, true or false, unless we say it is. We live in an indifferent universe. The study of mathematics and any science will allow us to accumulate a set of facts that are meaningless in themselves. Those facts do not have meaning until we give them meaning. Until we give them meaning, they are nothing to us, and in the process of giving facts meaning, we subject them to our own biased subjective perceptions of reality which ultimately cannot be based in fact if they are to have any relevance to our lives because we base our lives on absolutes that do not exist.

I am not saying that we should not do this (there are those who try not to, and they are the postmodern movement). We can't help it really. I just wanted to point this out (although, the real credit goes to Kierkegaard and Nietzsche).
 
Dragon said:
"The truth is subjective" (Soren Kierkegaard).
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I'm familiar with the philosophy. Just wanted to see your take on it.

EDIT: "Until we give them meaning, they are nothing to us." True. But that doesn't prevent them from existing outside of us, and having meaning outside our own perceptions.
 
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I want to know. There is so much out there that I'm sure I don't see, maybe not all of it harsh and ugly. I'm reading 2150 A.D. by Thea Alexander right now and there are two civilizations compared in the book, the micro (our current civilization which takes the short view and in doing so destroys the earth and most of "civilization") and the Macro, a civilization which succeeds the micro and is able to become one with all that was, is and ever will be and thereby live in a utopian society. What I haven't got to yet is how the Macro view became prevalent but it had to be from being awakened to what was, is and will be. Okay, so it's fiction, but I still think our best chance at change is in knowing and then doing whatever we can to change things even if only on an individual level. As long as we all believe we are powerless to change things, all will continue as it is today.
 
Milon said:
I'm familiar with the philosophy. Just wanted to see your take on it.

EDIT: "Until we give them meaning, they are nothing to us." True. But that doesn't prevent them from existing outside of us, and having meaning outside our own perceptions.
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They will exist outside of us; however, it definitely prevents them from having meaning outside our own perceptions. Meaning is human created because meaning depends on the relationship of an object to us. In order for meaning to exist independently of humans, it would have to be an absolute meaning, probably given to us by god or some other force. Many people believe this to be the case, but you can never prove it. Furthermore, any absolute that is established by one person can be defied by another person, which makes the absolutes no longer absolute.
 
I don't think it's degrading to choose the blue pill if it would be analogous to remaining innocent like in the movie Pleasantville; a static content state of oblivion. Different people have different degrees of tolerance for pain. I'm not ashamed to admit I have a low one and am not a courageous person. It would only be a less honourable choice because we experience the character building of the extended dimension of pain, as if the red pill is attached to a sentiment, however participating in a gallant battle because you have no other choice but to alleviate pain to me is incomparable to a world which some have wished God would've sustained; that perfect sheltered Garden of Eden, which could've refused the creation of suffering and conditioned free will to a safer axiom. I don't feel as though the red pill dimension gives us more liberating free will, only more options and obstacles to find and navigate our intrinsic motivations through; a more turbulent route to realise ultimate choices being only what the blue pill would've wanted if it knew and was subjected to the full extent of its deprivation- value of truth. Otherwise it doesn't have anything to lose unless it can speculate about what's greener on the other side, which my reference point, Pleasantville wasn't subjected to until the red team intervened.

My post is rambling around because each pill could entail different things. :tape:
If the blue pill discovered its reality was a lie could it still speculate about what reality could be, the same way the red pill just has more evidence to evaluate plausible certitude from? Before you make the choice, would you know whether you'll have the option to eventually return to the Matrix? (haven't seen it, meaning to, just been living under a rock). Can you even assume the red pill entails objective truth when it will be implemented through relative perception? I'm silly, I interpreted the op referring to 'what is' being the state of our world today vs oblivion because my notion of ultimate reality as I conceptualise it isn't something to fear (enlightenment) so I thought it would've been too easy a choice since we're already aware of suffering now, objective reality may give more insight into global solutions. If the red pill immediately distills all delusions of course, that's the pill I'm alive aspiring to take!

I don't necessarily perceive a duality between the two pills like some people have pointed out- sometimes all we know is that we don't know, so what we reason with the red pill can delude us just as much as the blue pill, the only difference being the red reality is not immune to pain. :p Can't the red pill provoke you to amplify your reality into wallowing in self-pity ending up just as ignorant of others' suffering as the blue pill? The red pill can sometimes do with mixing a bit of blue into its dose to remain grateful and sane in the situation. The blue pill could use some work experience to help humanity by sacrificing itself medicinally to a patient rather than remaining bubbled in the packet. And even here my vision for how you should navigate 'truth' is biased-NF. *throws spaghetti monster spirit fingers in the air*!
 
I would just be suspicious that the red pill is just another attempt to put a particular spin on reality, no different to the blue pill.
 
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If the Red Pill really offers objective truth sans candy coat, and the Blue Pill offered only a comfortable illusion, then choosing the Blue Pill would mean willful ignorance - which considering the alternative really isn't a dishonourable thing. I'd still choose the Red Pill. But good points have been raised - maybe it's just a drug dealer trying to dupe you. Maybe they're both the same and you only have the illusion of choice. Maybe.
 
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Last night, just on the verge of sleep I semi-dreamed a scene, a beautiful country lane. It didn't seem dream like though because it was right before my eyes and I felt like I was standing. It seemed like an invitation to enter a waking dream. And I wanted to but at the same time I wondered if I'd be able to come back which had me hesitating at the precipice. A voice came to me asking, "What difference does it make if you leave one dream for another?"
I said I would miss my children, husband, friends and family but the voice said, "Even though you know they are only a dream?"
"But it's safe for me, familiar and I'm afraid to let it go." I replied sadly.
The vision and voice disappeared and I fell asleep dreaming about a vacation in Hawaii.
 
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