Was Jesus a plagarist? | Page 4 | INFJ Forum

Was Jesus a plagarist?

Discussion in 'Philosophy and Religion' started by meanlittlechimp, Sep 1, 2009.

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  1. Barnabas

    Barnabas Time Lord

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    Fasle, Jesus divinty partialy serves to prove his statments and so if we believe in his divinity we can tust in his teachings.



    as for your similarities, while they are similar it would be simply strange to imply that Jesus stories came from farther eastern relgions when a natural Jewish background is there and obvious in his lessons.

    as for the reliability of the texts, well let it be enough to say they are soundly historically accurate and among biblical schoolars the authors are not in dispute.

    there really is enough on this subject to right several books(and trust me they have been written), so much so that I could really never make the perfect answer to all your questions in a post.
    -----------------------------------
    did this post really get dug up?
     
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    #61 Barnabas, Jan 12, 2010
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  2. Agnus

    Agnus Community Member

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    Umm, no I don't think so, because Sidharta Gautama and Jesus were two different people who tried to show the true (in the way that they understand) to humanity. Sidharta was living in a palace of his family. The astrologer predicted that he will leave his father one day and will become something like "favoured". The father didn't want to let him go, so he put as much efforts as he could that Sidharta wouldn't see neither one hint which would show that in life exists poverty, disasters etc. But still, Sidharta Gautama started his understandings journey, he became ascetic. Then he was found by people who took his understanding as a food for their souls. Buddhism predicate that every person can become Buddah, because there is energy in every person, that he can find it in himslef. In other words, Buddhism is religion which predicate the freedom of human choice. While Christianity tells people believe in a Lord who can forgive sins, who is the creator of life, who is guiding to the light.
    what i mean is that, because human nature needs pleasure for their souls or existence, they have similar morality. And just because you found a few facts like [] Both Jesus and Siddartha deserted their families to seek their truths. can not prove that Jesus was a plagiarist of Sidharta Gautama. All religions are spoken through humans lips. Humans who have desire to be, or to exists.
     
  3. Barnabas

    Barnabas Time Lord

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    I'd also like to assert Jesus didn't desert his family, The Gospels record him making a trip back to Nazereth.
     
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  4. Krumplenump

    Krumplenump Community Member

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    In direct response, yes.

    The key features of the new testament, like the virgin birth, 12 disciples, the resurrection etc are practically a carbon copy of Persian scriptures pre-dating Christianity, Egyptian scriptures pre-dating christianity and several more that don't come to mind right now.

    In short, the books of all three modern Abrahamic religions are just tweaked versions of older originals which, I might add, were fabrications themselves. The sheer blatant similarities in texts from different historic religions highlights the nonsense in claiming each one is gospel.

    Of course, I'm referring to key events such as those listed above as ridiculous.
     
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    #64 Krumplenump, Jan 18, 2010
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  5. Barnabas

    Barnabas Time Lord

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    show me the accounts of similer miracles and what not that you have. let's look at them in direct comparison, i'll put my money (if I had any) on the fact that there are unique differences between the religions that seperate them.
     
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  6. Krumplenump

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    Well you'd win then, but it's not a bet i would take since I never ruled out that there are no differences.

    I know I said carbon copy but I meant that in regards to the key pillars of Christianity, like the virgin birth, 21 disciples, the ressurrection etc as mentioned above.

    Of course there will be differences in religions: customs, practices etc, and differences in scriptures would be names, dates, sequence of events etc. But it remains that the basic framework of a rough story exists in many pre-Christian faiths. Compare Jesus and the Egyptian god Horus for a start.

    If you still want me to provide you with examples of similarities between biblical epics and several pre-christian writings then do say so and I'll happily embark on some data-gathering and more than happily put various examples of miracles next to one another for a comparison.
     
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  7. Barnabas

    Barnabas Time Lord

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    Well let's isolate the information i've no want to get into a massive page spanning discussion as I Don't have the time or intrest(I have more reading then I care to do this semester). But if you will indulge me maybe just with the comparisons and miracles of Horus and Jesus
     
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  8. Krumplenump

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    Horus was the Sun God of Egypt around 3000 BC. A lot has been learned about the myths surrounding Horus from deciphered hyroglyphs. Because he represented the sun, he had an opposite, his nemesis 'Set' who would be today's 'satan'.

    Horus was born in the winter solstice which today would be around Dec 21st to the Virgin Isis-Meri. A morning star called Sirius accompanied his birth which three 'solar deities' followed to adorn the new born saviour. Interestingly they both had death threats as babies, one by 'Herut' one by 'Herod'. a He was a 'child teacher' in his younger years, and as a man was 'baptized' at 30. He had 12 disciples, with whom he walked around performing miracles like healing the sick. he was betrayed by 'Typhon' and was subsequently crucified, buried and after three days... resurrected.

    Taking Horus as a basic framework, even if some of the translations of hyroglyphs are inaccurate, you can see his attributes permeate many key figures in plenty of cutluresafter ancient Egypt. Even if you take Horus out of the equation ALLTOGETHER the blatant similarities shared between other figures are too great to be mere coincidence.

    There was this dude called Attis in ancient greece around 1200 BC who was crucified, placed ina tomb for 3 days then resurrected.Krishna? Around 900BC, born of a virgin, an eastern star signalled his coming, he performed miracles and was resurrected after his death.

    There were others too, Dionysus who turned 'water into wine', Mithra from persia who shared Jesus' birthday and had 12 disciples.

    The basic fact here is that there have been numerous 'saviours' throughout history at different times and in different places that subscribe to these basic characteristics. Coincidence?
     
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    #68 Krumplenump, Jan 21, 2010
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  9. Barnabas

    Barnabas Time Lord

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    not to imply anything but what is your source(just curious)?

    The first thing we need to identify is the Birth of Christ, Dec 25 is not a hard date nor is it likley to be accurate as most know that Major Christian holidays are adapted pagan holidays.

    next let's move onto the Solar dieties, I'm assuming that your talking about either the angels or the magi as what you say could only be linked to those to events. It's a common misconception that their were three Magi, mainly due to the fact that they gave three gifts. In truth there may have only been two magi or there might have been fifty, or fity times fifty , This is once again a tradition and not likley accurate. As for the angels and similar story plays out as their is only one angel noted as speeking then a great deal worshiping god in the back drop.

    that cuts the first two out

    as for the "Virgin Birth" and "Herod" and "Herut", these are to general. I need more specifics. How and why did Herut try to kill Horus similer what was the means of the Virgin Birth? what was the context? How was the consumation preformed? I need more info.

    As for your other saviours, more info and context is needed, It should also be noted that while that healings, saviours and things simaler were not all that uncommon in Jesus' day. It was the way he healed people that made him stad out, the way he cast out demons and the way he calmed storms and feed thousands of people. Not only that but he did it all, He raised the dead, fead the hungry, healed the sick, calmed storms, withered a fig tree and was crucified, then raised to life. And he did it his way.
     
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    #69 Barnabas, Jan 21, 2010
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  10. Krumplenump

    Krumplenump Community Member

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    I have not the appetite for friction this evening, but fret not, I shall reply on the morrow.
     
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  11. Barnabas

    Barnabas Time Lord

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    Then on the morrow we shall meet again good neighboor.
     
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  12. Krumplenump

    Krumplenump Community Member

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    My sources were 1) the film 'Zeitgeist' and, since this film can be a bit simplistic in it's statements, the following site:

    http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm

    I have read about stark similarities with Christian core beliefs to older beliefs before, and I used these sources to confirm that my memory of the points was accurate.

    Sure, nor was the date of Horuses veneration a solid date, but it was the winter solstice which hovers around the closing days of December. The fact that Christianity has adopted and adapted many pagan holidays goes to further strengthen my point that Abrahamic religion was very impressionable in it's early days and didn't just materialise with all it's unique solid 'facts', but was born gradually, taking alot of it's principles an key events from preceding faiths, cults, and practises.

    I don't think it is possible to discredit this similarity on the basis that is it not a word-for-word match. With such major events, or rather claims, the presence of even a mere rough framework that bare hallmarks of similarity are more than enough to question the originality of the faith under scrutiny.

    For the above reason, I think it does not.

    I hardly think openly claimed events of the 'virgin birth' in Christianity today and in Egyptian beliefs of the past needs 'more specifics'. Besides the utter, imo, nonsense of such a claim that a virgin birth could ever occur, it is not an event that happens often.. How much more 'specific' can one get about a 'virgin birth'?

    You're quiet correct about there being a lot of healing going on and saviours waddling around in jesus' day. Does that not say something for the credibility of the whole affair? The ignorant minds of those days were bound to venerate one 'saviour' over the horde of others, but what makes Jesus less of a charlatan I really cannot see. Of course, he may not have been a charlatan but rather a caring, humanist figure, and the image of him in the minds of people he helped was exaggerated and blown out of all proportion which is proven to be a more than common occurance in people who are 1. uneducated and 2. in a desperate state. Jesus, whoever he was, probably just did nothing to discourage the outlandish venerations he was bestowed, and so, as humans are so good at doing, they added to the story and it grew and grew and grew. History's biggest chinese whisper, if you like.

    If you want me to give you 'more info and context' regarding Dionyses and the other 'saviours' that bear stark similarities with Jesus' own story, then I certainly think you should provide me with some solid evidence that Jesus 'cast out demons, calmed storms, raised the dead' and 'withered a fig tree', not to mention their originality. These claims are so outlandish and such an indicator of the fallible, impressionable minds of those who lived in those times that giving the 'proof' of the bible to corroberate them - which after all was created by men of those times - is hardly sufficient.
     
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  13. Barnabas

    Barnabas Time Lord

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    Sense the date is now out the window, it makes no point to use it as a point. As for the adopted holidays, you should know that Christianity didn't adopt these ideas in the early days of the church but instead after it was in full march across the known world, with full doctrine already established. Following that the early Church was indeed faced with false jewish and pagan doctrine, the letters of Paul prove it, how ever the letters also prove that the church was effectivley fighting off these opposing gospels.

    And I do find quite a difference between wise men and shepherd as opposed to celestial beings

    You must bear evidence, a virgin birth can mean different things, such as the child born from a young woman as opposed to a child born from a women who has never known a man. What of the difference in the conception. This can make the world of difference. was it of spirit, did the gods come down and mate with the women? were the gods involved at all? simply drawing connections from a quick leep can cause you to fall.

    Answered

    Interesing Idea, if not worn out. Let's start out with the "Chinese Whisper." Simply and correct me if I'm wrong, Jesus did something worthy of recognition, the people hearing about this satrted to spread his recognition and his tale along with it, this left unchecked grew into Christianity or at least Christianities core beliefe Of Christ.

    The problem with this is that Jesus' fame did not go unchallenged. The Pharisees or "keepers of the Law" were constantly nagging Jesus about his teachings and tried many time to trap him in his words as to discrace him. However they never denied his miracles, instead they said that he did them by satan. What about the Jewish leaders and the High Priests, why did they not shoot down these outrageous claims of miracles as non-sense.

    And as for your poor, "uneducated", "Desperate" followers of Christ. Not all were ignorant and desperate. The Roman centurion was not a uneducated man, neither was Paul.

    And what would you call desperate, the Four and five thousand. Hungry maybe but desperate i think not. What of the water to wine, none even knew of that miracle execpt the servants and Jesus' mother.

    And what of this probably, he probably didn't discourage this. Actually to the contrary, multiple times jesus told those he healed not to mention him but instead proclaim what God has done for them. This would go along with not wanting to draw a specific kind of attention.

    What of those who witnessed the Ascenscion, were they all desperate at the same time for the sane thing, ehich happened to be a man riding on a cloud.

    As once again I must say Jesus did things differently then any before him. Jesus miracles came from his own authority, he did not need to sing songs or evoke names, Jesus said come out, the demons came out. He said to the water be still and it did, to the men he said men, be hekaed and they were healed. No rituals no, songs, rings, chants or relics. Just come out, None of Jesus' contemporary "Messiahs" could do this nor could the healers and priests.

    These differences make the difference between those who claimed to be "Christ" as oppesed to the actual Christ.


    Chronological snobbery, noted by C.S. Lewis. Feel free to wiki it.

    You in believing that the miracles are outlandish shows that have preconcieved notions against the supernatural, which means your thinkning about such things would be biased. but to say in the least that these things are possible is to note that events of supernatural nature are reported all around the world sense the beginning of the age. from third world countires to the superpowers, to numerable are these accounts to be simply pushed aside as outlandish, and if they are not to pushed aside to day, why should they be pushed aside from history.
     
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  14. Krumplenump

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    The EXACT date is out of the window, and always was. The timing of all these saviours birth is, again, too surreal to be coincidence.
    Oh I see, the false Jewish and Pagan doctrine. Might I be so bold as to request evidence that makes either of those doctrines any less or more viable than that of Christianity?

    I'm sorry but I had to stifle a dispairing chuckle after reading that. If I overcome my 'bias against the supernatural' for a moment and take what you wrote seriously, I can answer it for you:
    A virgin birth in a virgin birth. The sheer audacity of and self-important out-of-place confidence with which the church propells such an insane notion makes the debate of the viability of a virgin birth utterly inane. Shiva's 'virgin mother' gave birth to him from a slit in her side, whereas Jesus was born from the normal orifice. Sure, the method of the 'virgin birth' was different but do you not understand that neither the method of birth NOR whether the mother was a girl or a woman, makes no difference whatsoever to my initial claim in their similarity and that key pillars of Christian doctrine are picked from other, earlier beliefs.

    I never claimed that Jesus did not to something worthy of recognition. I said in the very text you quoted that he was likely a caring, humanist do-gooder, like a modern mother Theresa if you will. (Her 'goodness' is debatable too btw, I simply used her name to convey a contemporary comparison).

    Now I totally agree with this, but where we differ is that you say the things he did that were worthy of recognition - like miraculously healing the sick, calming storms and other such nonsense - are gospel, facts, truths.
    This is the difference between the intoxicated and the sober. You are drunk on religion and understandably so if you were brought up beeing spoon-fed the alcohol of dogma.

    If I ask you for a source for all of this info, you'll likely quote the bible, something which to you, no doubt, is irrefutable fact. However I beg you to at least aknowledge that relying on words written by politiscised human figures of that time is hardly reliable. I simply cannot fathom where you get the logic from that enables you to read these things and just swallow them lock, stock and barrel without a flicker of curiosity at the utter implausible irrationalities they present. Until I am capable of fathoming that, or rather until you can convince me that your reasons for believing such evident tripe, I'm afraid I am either incapable of or unwilling to debate such absurdities. Forgive me if I sound a bit extreme but maintaining a 50-50 'could be, couldn't be' stance (which even you are not doing since you're saying what you say is right) when debating such points it's fruitless.

    Yes, educated for the day. Perhaps i should have used the term 'enlightened' to better ram home my point.

    Desperate are people who live hand to mouth, have little or no time nor funds for luxuries and their daily life consists of working to survive. The time of Jesus was full of these people and thus such a society tend to collectivly gobble up any redeeming tripe, anything that gives their life some meaning or provides them with some higher purpose - to follow, like sheep. Today the developed and increasingly the developed world is not full of such 'desperate people' and it is an abominable disservice to humanity that such things still go on.

    When (if?) Jesus returns to us in the second coming, raps on my door and proceeds to turn water into wine before me, then, and only then, will I lay down my arguments and say yes, it would seem you are right. But as long as my only source of such 'miracles' are texts written by a myriad of potentially bitter men with grudges and, ultimately, flawed human beings with personal agendas, noone can be expected to unquestioningly swallow so faithfully such gobbledigook unless they have some sort of neurological disorder.

    '' :-O '' at the text in bold. You do not need songs, rings, chants or relics to make something nonsense.


    Having preconcieved ideas about notions that are so unlikely to the point of impossibility is perfectly justified. Again, religion does not debate with reason on a 50-50 basis, it does not defend it's corner with arguments of equal viability or substance. AT ALL. Therefore accusing me of snobbery and unjustified bias is an utimate hypocrisy.
     
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  15. randomsomeone

    randomsomeone Well-known member

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    I have run across many stories in Native American (and other) cultures that also contain similar themes and archetypes to those Christianity articulates. In most of these cases the stories are meant to convey symbolic meaning and relationships and, while the meanings are true and valuable, the fantastical elements are not really meant to be understood on a literal level. Animal/man god figures, otherworldly landscapes and passages reveal relationships that might well be accurate on some cosmic level....I sometimes wish we gave more consideration to these deeper meanings rather than casting them off as wholly irrelevant. In any case, it is not surprising or shocking that certain story elements surface and resurface in these tales.

    The story of the Jesus and the Christian faith, however, is a bit different...it does not flow entirely from the same mythic source as many of these other tales. There is this element of actual history and real people to it, of times and places and eyewitness accounts. Now one might dismiss this possibility, but from a critical historical prespective one would be on thin ice to do so completely. Sure, one may argue over the details of this and that, of exact wording and precise sequences of events, but in many cases, even after this, one is left with some fairly substantial evidence (as far as historical evidence is evaluated) that "something" very similar to what is written did actually occur. Many of the stories do hold up to this level of critical analysis, and they have been analyzed at great depth.

    So did Jesus plagarize? If he did he was plagarizing the cosmos. And if he did this it was because he actually saw it. Even so, he went further and added something wholly unique and substantial that was not formerly known nor would be known except for him. And it was not merely a matter of Jesus' words.....the entire cycle and meaning of his life portrays certain truths that resonate deeply and profoundly across the ages. Few (if any) have fully come to grasp with the depths of this and we have surely tried over the centuries. Thing is, these truths have resonated in ever-fresh manifestations within the real lives of real people over time. There is something alive and organic about these teachings that transcend culture, circumstance, time and status.

    If someone is uninclined to believe any of this, fine, that is completely up to them. It is, however, far too late to dismantle Christianity's value as a unique, true, and historically valid path to human enlightenment. There is just too much evidence to support this stature in spite of the long list of abuses and malappropriations that also (unfortunately) inhabit the annals of human history.

    If anything, we are better off in cutting to the chase and encouraging Christians to fully embrace the teachings of their founder, to plumb the depths of these, and to cut past the barriers within our culture (and within us) that lead us to treat this all as some sort of game and not the earth-shattering quake it really is. We have become bored with something we never really understood in the first place. Shame on us....we can (and are invited to) do better.
     
    #75 randomsomeone, Jan 24, 2010
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  16. Krumplenump

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    I'm far more receptive to the practices of more spiritualist faiths since alot of what goes on is linked to human feeling, emotion and things we know exist. By the same token, cultures that venerate specific elements of nature have far more logic in their practices since they are praising direct things that give life, not a man-made unseen element that supposedly created them.

    Yes, I would not disagree. You may not have been replying to me specifically, but I've mentioned before that I do not think Jesus was a fabrication, I simply think his deeds or 'miracles' have been exaggerated, written down in pen and have been wrongly spoon fed to humanity for millennia.
    Stories written in the bible that are void of supernatural happenings and hocus pocus events most probably do have an element of historical merit, like any account of events witten outside the bible too. But I am not contesting those believable points at all, I am contesting the EXTREME accounts that Barnabas has quoted like the virgin birth, water into wine and calming storms. Defending elements of biblical scriptures that are likely to have truthin them simply because they are void of the supernatural is not a reason to defend Christianity as a whole.

    I'm afraid I strongly disagree. It simply goes against my moral fibre to 'conceed' to Christianity and other Abrahamic faiths that 'it's too late'. My aim is never to dismantle the faiths anyway, nor would I wish to see them gone altogether because some other cult of insanity would replace it as humans are wont to do. But to cease my opposition to what I see as humanitys greatest self-deception on the basis that I am 'outnumbered' would be, again, against my moral fibre.

    I'm sorry, are you reffering to Christianity as an earth-shattering quake in a good way?
     
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  17. randomsomeone

    randomsomeone Well-known member

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    Yes....actually I was referring to Christ himself and the veil he pulled back on the "way of things" in this world. It is, at it's heart, a valuable and highly relevant perspective I think. That culture and people (including many of his followers) have trivialized the essence of his teaching is rather sad.

    If you see these religions as a form of self-deception, that is your right to do so. From a certain perspective I can understand. For myself I have chosen to include other perspectives and combined, these work for me. I was simply commenting on my own experience with resonant messages found within other religious systems of belief.
     
    #77 randomsomeone, Jan 24, 2010
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  18. Krumplenump

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    Well, that's fair enough!
     
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  19. Peguy

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    *sigh* I'm not touching this with a 100ft pole. Although Barnabas if you wish, this might be of interest to you:
    'Was the New Testament Influenced by Pagan Religions?' by Ronald Nash.

    Rather odd to claim Christianity is simply a copy-cat of Buddhism, when the more likely case(if this were true) would be it being a variation of the Mystery cults that flourished in the Ancient Near East at this time. Mithraism, not Buddhism, is usually considered the closest pagan parallel to Christianity.
     
    #79 Peguy, Jan 26, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2010
    Barnabas likes this.
  20. Barnabas

    Barnabas Time Lord

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    You might want to read that file Krump, you might enjoy it.
     
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